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Logical explanation: why a god must exist

 
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:22 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;173140 wrote:
What can "God" mean to us? Is God a system of propositions? A feeling? An explanation?


None of these: 'not this, not that'. Everything we think, project, reason about, imagine, is the product of the past, of what we have previously thought, felt, reasoned about. As far as God can be thought about, argued about, then God is just a conceptual construction. Thinking itself will always be radically limited in this way. Krishnamurti: "the known must cease for the unknown to be".
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:29 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;173146 wrote:
None of these: 'not this, not that'. Everything we think, project, reason about, imagine, is the product of the past, of what we have previously thought, felt, reasoned about. As far as God can be thought about, argued about, then God is just a conceptual construction. Thinking itself will always be radically limited in this way. Krishnamurti: "the known must cease for the unknown to be".


Yes, that's my view also. God as explanation is not God enough, in my opinion. Because God-as-concept is just not that impressive, really. God shouldn't be a stop-gap for Reason. That's my opinion. I don't want to offend anyone, so I feel ambivalent sometimes about sharing these opinions. But we are on a philosophy forum, so I figure it's justified. Great quote by the way.Smile
north
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 11:09 pm
@Reconstructo,
Quote:
None of these: 'not this, not that'. Everything we think, project, reason about, imagine, is the product of the past,


then how did the space program start ?

Quote:
of what we have previously thought, felt, reasoned about.


contradiction , to your above statement


Quote:
As far as God can be thought about, argued about, then God is just a conceptual construction. Thinking itself will always be radically limited in this way. Krishnamurti: "the known must cease for the unknown to be".


disagree

both should ultimately be in harmony , both the known and the unknown

its all about attitude of thinking and the approach of knowing and the unknown in the end
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Jun, 2010 12:11 am
@north,
Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion googolplex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahal or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch

I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can't, can I of course I can't, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. The great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God


Alan McDougall 24/6/2008


0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Jun, 2010 08:02 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him"

Genesis 1;27

Image of God:
http://www.mpa-garching.mpg.de/galform/millennium/seqD_063a.jpg

Image of Man:
http://www.bio.sci.osaka-u.ac.jp/bio_web/lab_page/ogura/photo-neuron.jpg
0 Replies
 
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Jan, 2011 09:33 pm
To all who are still stuck on the issue of whether God had to be created in order to create the universe, consider this. The Universe and everything in it - material and immaterial - is what we consider the natural world. Space and time are what bind the natural world together. The very notion that God created this and is apart from it makes Him supernatural. If He is God and is supernatural, none of these natural laws apply to Him. Logic can tell us that He exists, but it cannot explain His nature because logic is also a product of the natural world.
I find it takes a great deal more faith to believe there is no God than to be a creationist. Consider if you will that Agnostic Astronomer Hugh Ross calculated the chance that there would be life on any one planet. Taking into account the 120 or so Anthropic Principles(conditions necessary for life on a planet) and assuming the number 10^22 planets in the Universe, he calculated the chance that there would be any life ANYWHERE in the Universe to be 1 in 10^138. Now, the most recent estimates of the number of atoms in the universe is only around 10^80(leaving it 58 0's shy of matching the previous number).
Additionally, when you consider that science(that is the first and second laws of thermodynamics along with Einstein's Theory of General Relativity) shows that the Universe had a beginning and will have an end(there will eventually be no usable energy left in the universe), there is no way I can justify any belief except that the Universe was created.
If you are unfamiliar with the Anthropic Principles I recommend reading up on them, they're really quite astonishing.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 06:30 am
@HeroicOvenmitt,
"I find it takes a great deal more faith to believe there is no God than to be a creationist."

That is such a ridiculousness statement that it should not even be necessary to point out the silliness of it. But I should anyways since you obviously felt the need to write it, you must have missed something crucial.

Saying that it takes more faith to believe there is no god is like saying it takes more faith to believe there are no fairies or goblins. No that is absurd. They both exist in the same box, the box of human imagination. The amount of evidence for either existing is EXACTLY the same amount, none. Why do you attribute god being exempt to this fact is due to you WANTING god to be real where as you don't care if goblins or fairies exist.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 08:39 am
@Krumple,
...so it happens I agree with you, at least on the traditional concept of God but I don´t follow the comparison you just did there...if it was the case that a transcendent Deity was responsible for the Universe how would you know anything about it to assert such match ???
0 Replies
 
longfun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 09:19 am
@Johnny Fresh,
If you start ignoring you can proof anything.
0 Replies
 
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 11:16 am
@Krumple,
No, the reason I assert that God is not the same as fairies and goblins is that these creatures are just that. Created beings of our imagination. However, the existence of something supernatural(whether God, the force, or a flying spaghetti monster) is NECESSARY for the universe.
Science has proven that the universe exploded into everything from nothing(General Theory of Relativity). The Law of Causality(The very basis of all science mind you, so if you disagree with this point, citing any scientific observations at all would be hypocritical) states that the universe exploding into being needs a cause.

You are left with the choices:
A) Nothing caused nothing to become everything
or
B) Something caused nothing to become everything

A is clearly illogical and since it is in reference to the origin of the natural world logic applies. Since A is illogical, the logical mind would rule it out.
That leaves us with B. Something caused the universe to be. This something had to be conscious as it had to choose to cause the universe to be, because if it did not choose to cause the universe to be then something ELSE caused it to cause the universe. And that's just adding more layers until you get to something having consciously chosen to create(causing the universe to be is the same as creating it, though we could get into semantics on that, it's beside the point) the universe.
If you accept that the universe was created by a conscious being unbound by the natural law - as it would be because it CREATED the natural law - then you accept that there is, in some form or another, a God. Whether you believe it to be the Invisible Pink Unicorn or Jehovah or Allah is a different matter, but forensic science DOES prove that the universe was caused to be by something outside of the universe, which is what we call God.

I would then assert that in light of this evidence, and more that I can provide if you wish, your belief that God does not exist is simply and purely because you don't WANT him to.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:18 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
That ´s your proof ???
How about an infinite sequence of Big-Bangs coming out from quantum energy, eh ?
...But lets give it a shot, lets play your game...
Just why, if to assume there was a God at all, should we separate the Creation from the Creator, given traditional perspective asserts everything comes from is will and power ?
Would n´t that imply that the sum of both as a set necessarily resulted in something bigger then God ?
And then there´s the transcendent aspect of God that presented as a purely spiritual entity had no logical way of "communicating"/interacting with matter...how would he manifest itself, in "mechanical" terms ? ahhh, there comes the MAGIC to make things work...and down the drain with the pseudo-science camouflage...
In fact I am convinced that there´s no need for God to be "magical" to attain omnipotence...omnipotence must simply mean, to do all that is POSSIBLE to do, in a given System...which in turn "fuses" him with the system...
I could keep going upon the many utterly childish and yet pretentious beliefs that turn God so close to human image...I mean, he talks...he has feelings...he thinks...could n´t we get something just a little bit more abstract ? Common ?

I say, give me a mathematical model of God and I may get to think twice...as it is is just not worth it...I mean... reason HAS to believe, otherwise why where we provided to work with it in our decision making ???
Hell, wake up !!!

Anyway´s I am certainly losing my time where as you people are not up for any kind of turn around even in the face of overwhelming evidence...

Have a nice day and keep up with the Disney thing if it makes you happy...
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:42 pm
@Johnny Fresh,

Quote:
If you believe in logic than you believe in God:


ah.. no


Quote:
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?
everything must come from something.


yes


Quote:
now you'll agree that time is a finite thing (ex. if i say, count to a infinity, will you ever reach infinity? No.)


sure

Quote:
Thus meaning that something immaterial (without matter) and omnipresent (without time) Must have created everything.


no

that energy and matter are for infinity

Quote:
As for the then how was god created question


imagination

Quote:
God does not need to be created because he has been around forever, you may say how is this possible. but God is without time. He lives in the past present and future and to him time is a mere physical boundary that us humans live in.


and this imaginary god is also imperfect and has limits

peter jeffrey cobb
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 01:52 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Well seems to me that question depends How you personaly define God. After all there are so many defenitions out there. Smile hope that made some kind of sense?
0 Replies
 
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:07 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Yes. that's my proof. That proof that you so cavalierly dismiss is based on the General Theory of Relativity, the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, the presence of cosmic background radiation consistent with the universe exploding from nothing into everything, and the Law of Causality(the BACKBONE of science). Your infinite sequence of big-bangs is a theory that is proven wrong with the basic fact that infinite numbers are not possible with finite things such as time. Additionally it goes against the General Theory of Relativity(proven to 9 decimal places, mind you) as well as the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

But let's assume that the universe HAS been around forever. The First Law of Thermodynamics says that no new energy is being created and no energy is being destroyed. The Law of Entropy(second law of thermodynamics) tells us that the energy in the universe is becoming steadily less usable, meaning that there is no less energy in the universe, but it is in a form that cannot be used. Think of a flashlight. If you leave it on, the light eventually will start to get dim and go out. The battery is out of energy, the light bulb is not producing any more light or heat, but there is no less energy in the universe. It is just unusable now.

So if the universe had been around for eternity, we'd be a dead flashlight by now. All that exploding and contracting and stars exploding really takes a toll, ya know? No stars would be shining, the universe would be a completely cold box of gases and matter and of course, unusable energy.
The idea that the universe has had 'infinite big bangs' seems to me to be asserting that either A) there are multiple universes, each having its own big bang(which there is no evidence for. After all how could we examine something OUTSIDE of the universe?)
or B) that our universe, though expanding faster and faster will eventually collapse on itself and then explode again.
The problem with B is that eventually, since the universe whether expanding, contracting, or exploding, is still the universe. Because of this, the universe is still limited by the laws of thermodynamics and would have run out of usable energy by now.

As for separating the creator from the creation, I don't really see your point. Using that logic would seem to imply the following:
You build a house. You maintain this house, pay for the electricity, water, and keep it in good shape. You fill it with furniture and make it a nice, comfortable place.
You are now that house.
Of course that is a silly thought, you are the builder of this house. You aren't bound to the limits of the house, you can enter and leave it as you please. Yet you can impose your will on the house. You can destroy it, remodel it, get a dog that'll poo and pee all over the carpet, whatever you decide to do with the house, you can do.
In the same way, God would have created the universe. He is not bound by its limits, but the limits that hold us in do not keep Him out or negate His will.
And would the builder being separate from the house result in something 'bigger than the house and the builder?' Like say a motel? This isn't monopoly, so no.

"And then there´s the transcendent aspect of God that presented as a purely spiritual entity had no logical way of "communicating"/interacting with matter...how would he manifest itself, in "mechanical" terms ?"
Now this is an interesting thought. But being a spiritual being would simply mean that God is - as we've said - supernatural. He isn't bound by the limits of this universe. Why then, if he is unlimited and omnipotent would it be hard to believe he could manifest himself in his own creation? And no logical way of communicating/interacting... would you not consider creating everything to be interacting with it? And since your thoughts themselves are not physical entities, why would it be a problem for a non-physical entity to communicate with it?

I would like to point out that you said nothing to refute my points, which are all firmly rooted in well-documented science rather than 'cutting-edge' theories with no real meat to them. Your statements only redirect the conversation to a mere argument of semantics and throw in a theory that disagrees with the General Theory of Relativity as well as the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics and the Law of Causality. If you're willing to throw out these very fundamentals of science, then you choose to ignore good science(not my science either, I'm talking about Einstein and that whole field of thermodynamics).
As for your mathematical model... if it's math you're after, look at the odds that there would be life - excuse me, that's the CHANCE of a planet being able to support life, not the chance that the life would be there.
That number was 1 in 10^138 or 1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 as calculated by an AGNOSTIC scientist, not a Creationist.
That number is 58 zeros longer than the number of atoms IN THE UNIVERSE. Even IF that lucky 1 was drawn out of the cosmic hat and life COULD form on a planet spontaneously(also against the law of entropy, that nature naturally brings disorder while a nearly incomprehensible amount of order is necessary for even an amoeba), then you would also have to calculate in all the hurdles life faces to be formed by chance. But chance is not really a cause, it is a mathematical expression of probability, right(another semantic argument waiting to happen)? So what we mean by chance is that it happens by natural processes. But again, Entropy will have nothing to do with this, and science has not yielded life from a test tube that contained only non-life before. They have produced amino acids, but without INTELLIGENT intervention(and there's a lot of intelligence working on those experiments, mind you), the amino acids cannot form into the RNA and DNA necessary for life. Have we completely given up on Pasteur's experiments and the Law of Biogenesis as well? There's a lot more to be said on that topic, but that's for a different thread and I'm sorry to be crossing into different territory, but it is related.
The amount of science you have to ignore to get around the universe having been created is rather overwhelming. I am a Christian, but I am making no case for Christianity from this. I am doing my best to look objectively at the facts that I'm presented and I am doing my best to draw a logical conclusion. The conclusion I have reached is what I see as fitting best with the evidence, rather than following an a priori commitment to a philosophy or theology.
Faith fills in the gaps where our knowledge can't explain something. I admire the faith of the atheist, it's much stronger than my own to be able to believe in a non-created universe.
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:11 pm
@north,
"that energy and matter are for infinity"

Is there an infinite amount of energy and matter in the universe?

You agreed that time is finite, and that the Law of Causality holds true, meaning there is a cause for everything in the universe.

Because you agree time is finite, you agree it had a beginning, so I'm assuming your statement about energy and matter being infinite is not in relation to time. Since there is not an infinite amount of energy or matter in the universe, energy and matter are not infinite in the sense of having been around forever or in the sense of there being an infinite amount of either.
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:13 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
HeroicOvenmitt wrote:

Yes. that's my proof. That proof that you so cavalierly dismiss is based on the General Theory of Relativity, the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics, the presence of cosmic background radiation consistent with the universe exploding from nothing into everything, and the Law of Causality(the BACKBONE of science). Your infinite sequence of big-bangs is a theory that is proven wrong with the basic fact that infinite numbers are not possible with finite things such as time. Additionally it goes against the General Theory of Relativity(proven to 9 decimal places, mind you) as well as the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics.

But let's assume that the universe HAS been around forever. The First Law of Thermodynamics says that no new energy is being created and no energy is being destroyed. The Law of Entropy(second law of thermodynamics) tells us that the energy in the universe is becoming steadily less usable, meaning that there is no less energy in the universe, but it is in a form that cannot be used. Think of a flashlight. If you leave it on, the light eventually will start to get dim and go out. The battery is out of energy, the light bulb is not producing any more light or heat, but there is no less energy in the universe. It is just unusable now.

So if the universe had been around for eternity, we'd be a dead flashlight by now. All that exploding and contracting and stars exploding really takes a toll, ya know? No stars would be shining, the universe would be a completely cold box of gases and matter and of course, unusable energy.
The idea that the universe has had 'infinite big bangs' seems to me to be asserting that either A) there are multiple universes, each having its own big bang(which there is no evidence for. After all how could we examine something OUTSIDE of the universe?)
or B) that our universe, though expanding faster and faster will eventually collapse on itself and then explode again.
The problem with B is that eventually, since the universe whether expanding, contracting, or exploding, is still the universe. Because of this, the universe is still limited by the laws of thermodynamics and would have run out of usable energy by now.

As for separating the creator from the creation, I don't really see your point. Using that logic would seem to imply the following:
You build a house. You maintain this house, pay for the electricity, water, and keep it in good shape. You fill it with furniture and make it a nice, comfortable place.
You are now that house.
Of course that is a silly thought, you are the builder of this house. You aren't bound to the limits of the house, you can enter and leave it as you please. Yet you can impose your will on the house. You can destroy it, remodel it, get a dog that'll poo and pee all over the carpet, whatever you decide to do with the house, you can do.
In the same way, God would have created the universe. He is not bound by its limits, but the limits that hold us in do not keep Him out or negate His will.
And would the builder being separate from the house result in something 'bigger than the house and the builder?' Like say a motel? This isn't monopoly, so no.

"And then there´s the transcendent aspect of God that presented as a purely spiritual entity had no logical way of "communicating"/interacting with matter...how would he manifest itself, in "mechanical" terms ?"
Now this is an interesting thought. But being a spiritual being would simply mean that God is - as we've said - supernatural. He isn't bound by the limits of this universe. Why then, if he is unlimited and omnipotent would it be hard to believe he could manifest himself in his own creation? And no logical way of communicating/interacting... would you not consider creating everything to be interacting with it? And since your thoughts themselves are not physical entities, why would it be a problem for a non-physical entity to communicate with it?

I would like to point out that you said nothing to refute my points, which are all firmly rooted in well-documented science rather than 'cutting-edge' theories with no real meat to them. Your statements only redirect the conversation to a mere argument of semantics and throw in a theory that disagrees with the General Theory of Relativity as well as the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics and the Law of Causality. If you're willing to throw out these very fundamentals of science, then you choose to ignore good science(not my science either, I'm talking about Einstein and that whole field of thermodynamics).
As for your mathematical model... if it's math you're after, look at the odds that there would be life - excuse me, that's the CHANCE of a planet being able to support life, not the chance that the life would be there.
That number was 1 in 10^138 or 1 in 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 as calculated by an AGNOSTIC scientist, not a Creationist.
That number is 58 zeros longer than the number of atoms IN THE UNIVERSE. Even IF that lucky 1 was drawn out of the cosmic hat and life COULD form on a planet spontaneously(also against the law of entropy, that nature naturally brings disorder while a nearly incomprehensible amount of order is necessary for even an amoeba), then you would also have to calculate in all the hurdles life faces to be formed by chance. But chance is not really a cause, it is a mathematical expression of probability, right(another semantic argument waiting to happen)? So what we mean by chance is that it happens by natural processes. But again, Entropy will have nothing to do with this, and science has not yielded life from a test tube that contained only non-life before. They have produced amino acids, but without INTELLIGENT intervention(and there's a lot of intelligence working on those experiments, mind you), the amino acids cannot form into the RNA and DNA necessary for life. Have we completely given up on Pasteur's experiments and the Law of Biogenesis as well? There's a lot more to be said on that topic, but that's for a different thread and I'm sorry to be crossing into different territory, but it is related.
The amount of science you have to ignore to get around the universe having been created is rather overwhelming. I am a Christian, but I am making no case for Christianity from this. I am doing my best to look objectively at the facts that I'm presented and I am doing my best to draw a logical conclusion. The conclusion I have reached is what I see as fitting best with the evidence, rather than following an a priori commitment to a philosophy or theology.
Faith fills in the gaps where our knowledge can't explain something. I admire the faith of the atheist, it's much stronger than my own to be able to believe in a non-created universe.



have you explored evolution ?
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:19 pm
@north,
yes, I have.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:24 pm
@north,
He definitely has never heard of vacuum energy...neither does he remembers that the chances of something to be re-organized in a perpetual system are always bigger then zero statistically, even considering 2 law...neither he is familiarized with the latest proposals for several big-bangs in a flat space expansion...is data is outdated in every sense...
Next, he confuses the building of a "house" with external materials, with building a house with my own, literally my own materials...(my body)
Further, Many worlds, or parallel Universes, throws Anthropic principles right down the trash bean...
Bullshit Science, nothing else...
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:28 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil Albuquerque wrote:

He definitely has never heard of vacuum energy...neither does he remembers that the chances of something to be re-organized in a perpetual system are always bigger then one statistically...neither he is familiarized with the latest proposals for several big-bangs in a flat space expansion...is data is outdated in every sense...
Next, he confuses the building of a "house" with external materials, with building a house with my own, literally my own materials...(my body)
Bullshit Science, nothing else...


who is " he " ?

until then , I have nothing to say

I have no problem with defending myself
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:30 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
clearly I am missing something. Please be so kind as to share your information about vacuum energy, the reason it is exempt from the law of entropy, the effect this would have on my previous statements, and how you still hold to the theory that the universe has been around for eternity when it is philosophically and scientifically impossible.
Lastly, please refute my science with science, rather than insulting me.
 

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