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Logical explanation: why a god must exist

 
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:31 pm
@north,
HeroicOvenmitt who else ?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:35 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
It is not exempt, it does n´t need to...think...and do your homework properly !
When considering an infinite amount of time there is always a bigger then zero chance of reorganizing a structure in an entropic environment...you are not just sloppy but arrogant !
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:39 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
HeroicOvenmitt wrote:

yes, I have.


explored evolution , and ....
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I apologize if I came off as being arrogant, but if I'm arrogant, you have most certainly been rude. I still can't comprehend how the universe could be infinite. Please explain the following to me.

If there has been an infinite amount of time before now, now would not be here because we could never get to this point on an infinite timeline. In addition, what is your proof of an infinitely reoccurring big bang cycle? Does it adequately refute the General Theory of Relativity and the philosophical argument I have made? And what difference would an infinite amount of time make in the matter of 'reorganizing a structure?' Nature is nature and despite the amount of time you give it, would entropy not still be entropy?
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:41 pm
@north,
And I have to ask you to clarify. Macroevolution or Microevolution? But that seems to me like a conversation for another thread or a private message.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 04:48 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
First you can have an infinite cycle even with a finite amount of mass or energy...its called recycling...oh dear...
Second about the 2 law I just explain it to you...do you know anything about statistics and infinity´s ? You have to do some reading really !
Third, I am, in this forum, probably the closest you will see to a rational approach on the Universe, that closely resembles the idea of a sort of a "God", but in very different and largely abstracter terms...
amer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:06 pm
@validity,
I believe you have missed something, something very crucial in the above model. That being that only immaterial and omnipresent has the property of creating 'something' and existing 'forever'.


validity wrote:

By the same logic you must admit that everything does not need to be created because everything has been around for ever, negating the need for a creator god.

Or have I missed something
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:07 pm
@amer,
Really ? Was that an angel in a dream or what ? hmmmm... Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:08 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
HeroicOvenmitt wrote:

And I have to ask you to clarify. Macroevolution or Microevolution? But that seems to me like a conversation for another thread or a private message.


create the thread
0 Replies
 
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:09 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I was not asking about an infinite cycle of mass and energy, I was asking how you could traverse an infinite amount of time.
Basically, time itself is finite. We can measure it, days, years, decades, etc. We can measure it because time is finite. The timeline however is what we're debating. But you cannot have an infinite amount of a finite thing. Infinite is a theoretical concept in the finite world.
Walking an infinite distance before coming to a lake is a logical impossibility, isn't it? It's like saying infinite+1, you'll never get to that 1 because you have infinite before it, correct?
And has the General Theory of Relativity been proven wrong? Because that theory - if true - shows the universe to have a beginning, from nothing to everything. So it is necessary for it to be false for an infinite cycle.
To answer your second point, no, I don't. I am in fact a college student, an undergrad at that. But none of this answered any of my questions.
Perhaps my questions weren't clear enough.
I was asking how it is possible to get from infinitely long ago to today. I understand it to be impossible from... well any standpoint I have tried so far.
I also asked about the validity of the General Theory of Relativity. does your argument refute the assertion inherent in the GTR that the universe had a beginning(from nothing to everything)? I understand the GTR to have been proven accurate to nine decimal places and have not heard of anything overturning it.
And finally I asked if giving entropy an infinite amount of time makes it something other than entropy.

As for your third statement, I understand what you mean, but it could easily be misunderstood as arrogance.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:09 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
On Evolution at a cosmological level you have Parallel Universes "competition"...again chances bigger then zero to get one with us in it...
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:12 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Johnny Fresh wrote:
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?


No. Why can't the universe just pop into existence out of nothingness? There's nothing logically impossible about that.
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:16 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
This still does not answer any of my questions...
but okay.
What evidence is there for a parallel universe?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:18 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
1 - if you know something about Einstein´s relativity you should be aware that energy also can be converted back in matter...
Virtual particles like in Hawking's radiation in the event horizon of black holes are a nice example...

2 - Again how many around the earth trips could you do even if it is finite ?

3 - ...and about time...time is not dissociated from space or movement...so why not ?
HeroicOvenmitt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:19 pm
@Night Ripper,
It's scientifically impossible. If you believe that, you void the Law of Causality which is what science is, essentially.
You can believe this only if you are also willing to believe that no scientific experiment is valid.
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:23 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
HeroicOvenmitt wrote:

It's scientifically impossible. If you believe that, you void the Law of Causality which is what science is, essentially.
You can believe this only if you are also willing to believe that no scientific experiment is valid.


To do science, one doesn't need causes, only correlations.

Also, your argument is an argument from negative consequences, "you can't believe X without giving up Y". That might be true (it's not) but it still doesn't speak to the falsity of X, only how awful it would be if X were true.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:24 pm
@HeroicOvenmitt,
You have not "evidence" but instead some leads, like the quantum collapse of the wave function in a set of several fuzzy possibility´s...Its a well known working model now...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:25 pm
@Night Ripper,
Yes...I don´t buy it, but you are technically right...long time no see... Wink

The problem from my standing point is that in a Hard Deterministic set would n´t even make sense to make a distinction between both correlations and causes as they would look the same...
0 Replies
 
amer
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:28 pm
@Persona phil,
@ Persona Phil - Here is the physics perspective. Believe it or not physics has a lot to say about space and time. Below is what I wrote on another blog. In summary, time and space are physical quantities not philosophical ones, meaning that they have no meaning 'outside' of the physical universe. So, it is entirely scientifically consistent to say that there is no time before the universe began because time is a creation of the universe. Here goes:

In the various models (mathematical) of the physical universe a number of measurable quantities are axiomatically defined, space and time (space time) being one of these. These quantities naturally pair them selves mathematically with other measurable quantities such as momentum and energy. In fact, these pairings provide some deep insight into the development of any physical system, for instance, Energy is that physical quantity of the physical universe that is associated with temporal existence. In other words if there is no energy there is also no concept of time. Similarly, momentum and space. If there was no momentum there is no concept of space. Thus, physics shows that things that we would have intuitively thought of as primarily philosophical entities are in fact only (and exclusively) physical quantities. There is therefore no meaning to the question what was time like before the universe can into being or what did space mean before the universe came into being. Because? because these are physical entities associated with only a physical universe. They have no definition, no meaning in any context other that of a physical universe! This is a difficult and sometimes a disturbing concept but it seems to be the way the world is.

The physical models then describe not a universe being created in to a pre existing space and time but the creation of all physical entities including space and time. So, when you hear that the universe is expanding - it is not expanding into existing space, that very space is what is being created in the expansion.

I hope this helps.



Persona phil wrote:

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
If you believe in logic than you believe in God:

False. You simply believe that your form of thought and perception are correct. An argument or train of thought is not the equivolent to the whole of logic. If you believe it is, you do not understand the concept of what logic is. Simply because when one holds a position that they must feel it is true does not mean one cannot have logic without holding said position. For example, I recognize that one can easily know "I shouldn't touch the fire or I'll get hurt" even if I hold to the Pro-Choice movement while they hold to the Pro-Life movement. They still have logic, they simply disagree.

In this instance, I bring an example of Epicuris. A major father of thought within west philosophy. He famously said:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"

This, the Problem of Evil, is a major philosophical question still debated today.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?

Yes.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
everything must come from something.

Thus, if God exists, he as a something, must have come from something.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
now you'll agree that time is a finite thing

Yes.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
Thus meaning that something immaterial (without matter) and omnipresent (without time) Must have created everything.

No, simply that existence began with matter(rather than your proposal of God), which continued in the only possible way it could in a cause and effect reality(that being, existence started out with a set of elements and proceeded logically in function. 2+2(cause) always equals 4(effect), nothing else.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
God does not need to be created because he has been around forever, you may say how is this possible. but God is without time.

God cannot have been around forever, we've already clarified this earlier. You specifically admitted that time is a finite thing. Forever, however, is infinite. Thus, forever does not exist. It would be more accurate to say that if God does exist, he has existed since the beginning of time. Omnipresent is not without time. Omnipresent(all present) would be within all time. That would mean God would be present at every point in time in every place in time from the beginning of time to the end of time.

Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
He lives in the past present and future and to him time is a mere physical boundary that us humans live in.

Again. If he lives in the past, present, and future, he is not without time, he simply resides with and percieves time at once(where we as humans view parallel). His supposed omnipresence is a boundary unto itself.

---------- Post added 10-23-2009 at 11:12 AM ----------

Kielicious;99384 wrote:
Fixed


:shifty:

I giggled lol.

:detective:
north
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Jan, 2011 05:30 pm
@Night Ripper,

Johnny Fresh wrote:
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?


Quote:
No. Why can't the universe just pop into existence out of nothingness?


nothingness is nothingness is nothingness


Quote:
There's nothing logically impossible about that.


there is reasonably everything impossible about your above statement

 

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