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Logical explanation: why a god must exist

 
 
Theologikos
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 09:33 pm
@north,
@north,
does time, how we define it, exist without us? And does gravity, how we define it, exist without us as well? I know the words are created by humans to explain events, but would an apple not fall do the attraction it had to a greater mass, and would changes in state still require duration if we had not existed either?

:perplexed:
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 10:12 pm
@Theologikos,
Two hundred years ago, the biologist William Paley published a huge book called Natural Theology. It contains detailed descriptions of hundreds of animals, birds, fish and plants - the carefully collated results of a lifetime spent studying and cataloguing nature. Its detail is staggering, and Dr Paley's book remains a landmark in historical biology.

But he didn't intend it as a work of science. In fact, Paley was setting out to demonstrate something quite different: his idea was to prove beyond any doubt that God exists.

The book starts with a simple parable. Imagine you've just found a watch in the middle of a field - one of those old-fashioned clockwork pocket watches, presumably. Now, what is it about the watch that makes it different from the stones and pebbles lying around?

The answer is design. It's obvious that the watch has been carefully constructed by a human watchmaker. The wheels, pinions, coils and chains inside the watch's metal casing are shaped and assembled with a specific purpose in mind: telling the time. If the parts had been different, or fitted together in different ways, it wouldn't do anything of the sort.

The chances of a watch being constructed by blind chance are astronomically small. Where we have something that's clearly been designed for a specific purpose, we can safely say that a Designer gave it that purpose. Where there's a watch, Paley points out, there must be a watchmaker.

Now Paley invites us to draw the comparison between the watch and the world of nature. A fish's eye is much larger and rounder than a mammal's eye, with a crystalline lens that's good at concentrating rays of light passed through water. As Paley wrote, "what plainer manifestation of design can there be than this difference?" Surely, if someone designed the watch, then by the same logic someone designed the fish? And the same goes for every other creature whose design is painstakingly described in Paley's book.

Of course, Paley was hardly the first to come up with this idea. People throughout history have looked around them at the wonders of nature and intuitively asked themselves, "How else can we explain all this except by God?"

But these days there's a problem. In the mid-19 century, Charles Darwin came along with an idea that changed the face of biology forever. His theory of evolution by natural selection did very nicely what Paley thought was impossible: it described how apparent design in nature can arise without any hint of a Designer. (Nature, to quote a modern-day Darwinian, is 'the blind watchmaker'.)

Darwinism is no real threat to our faith. After all, the Genesis story can be illuminating and meaningful, even if it's not literally true. But it is a problem for Paley, although he can't be blamed - he was writing 50 years earlier than Darwin.

So was he barking up the wrong tree?
Well, surely there's more in the universe to be explained than the design of a fish's eye? If we agree that we don't need God to explain the design of life on Earth, even then there are some puzzles. For instance, scientists tell us that the universe itself looks 'designed', and Darwinism can't explain that.

The universe contains life. But not just any old universe would allow life to develop in the first place. To get life, you first need spatial dimensions, matter, energy, chemistry, atoms, stars, planets, gravity (and. antigravity, as it happens).

Luckily, our universe has all these things, and in precisely the right amounts to make it possible for life to develop. But without each of these key values being exactlyone in a billion. And yet - gasp - here we are!

So we're forced to believe both that God exists, and He designed the universe in order to create human life, or that we owe our existence to an astronomically huge coincidence.

For a hardened atheist, the second option might look tempting. But think about it. Imagine that your next-door neighbor wins the lottery jackpot every single week for a year.

Do you go on your merry way, thinking nothing of it? Maybe? ("Ah well, it's an astronomically huge coincidence, but never mind!") Well, what if, one day, you find out that your neighbor's brother works in the Lottery office and is in charge of handing out prizes? Do you still go on your merry way, without suspecting a thing? Of course not. A much better explanation for your neighbor's 'winning streak' presents itself - that the whole thing is a fix.

The situation with the universe is similar. I suppose it's remotely possible that the universe is special 'just by chance', in the same way that it's remotely possible that my neighbor could have won the lottery every week for a year just by being very, very, very lucky. But, as good scientists, we should prefer any alternative that doesn't depend on such ridiculous coincidences. Dr Paley was a good scientist, so maybe he wasn't so far wrong after all?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 10:43 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:
Luckily, our universe has all these things, and in precisely the right amounts to make it possible for life to develop. But without each of these key values being exactly


Alan you are at it again, spreading falsehood. First of all how do you know there isn't a huge area of chance where life could arise? You simply can not make the conclusion that the universe has to be exactly how it currently is for life to arise.

Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:

Can we really attribute the nature of the universe to coincidence? The odds against life are astronomical - a conservative estimate reckons the chance of generating a universe with just the right setup is about one in a billion. And yet - gasp - here we are!


And you fail at chance as well. There is a very rare event called a super nova that happens when a large star exhausts most of it's "fuel" and it can no longer maintain holding itself together, the energy generated in it's core exceeds the gravitational force so it explodes violently. This is a very rare occurrence, yet if you were to look up at the sky on any given night you are guaranteed to see at least ten supernovas. Now a person horrible at statistics such as you, would assume that supernovas are common, they are not. The reason you can see so many on any random night is because there are so many stars and the fact that they have been there for a long time. So this proves that something rare can happen quite often.

Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:

So we're forced to believe both that God exists


No, you insist that god exists, and that is the whole purpose for you writing this. Yet what you claim here is completely bunk. It is poor math and poor reasoning skills.

Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:

and He designed the universe in order to create human life, or that we owe our existence to an astronomically huge coincidence.


This is even more absurd because if the universe is meant for humans then why wait so long before making humans? It doesn't make any sense, surely if god is all powerful, then he could have easily designed the universe to support human life immediately and not need to wait. Yet the universe is billions of years old, so why wait so long before creating life? It is obvious, there is no maker behind it and that explains why it took so long.

Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:

For a hardened atheist, the second option might look tempting. But think about it. Imagine that your next-door neighbor wins the lottery jackpot every single week for a year.


Like I mentioned previously. Something rare like a supernova happens often. You are horrible with statistics.

Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:

The situation with the universe is similar. I suppose it's remotely possible that the universe is special 'just by chance', in the same way that it's remotely possible that my neighbor could have won the lottery every week for a year just by being very, very, very lucky. But, as good scientists, we should prefer any alternative that doesn't depend on such ridiculous coincidences. Dr Paley was a good scientist, so maybe he wasn't so far wrong after all?


Good scientist? You call this what you wrote, good science? It is flawed from the start, flawed in the middle, and flawed in it's conclusion.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:38 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;148425 wrote:
In fact, Paley was setting out to demonstrate something quite different: his idea was to prove beyond any doubt that God exists.



Something that needs to be understood is the idea that 'Deity' neither exists, nor does not exist. In other words, God (for those who believe in Him) is beyond existence and non-existence. If God is the source-of-all-being and that by virtue of which all exists, then Deity is beyond existence. Anything that we can conceive of existing, begins and ends in time, and is composed of parts. Deity exhibits none of these characteristics and so is like nothing that exists.

The problem with all arguments that set out to prove that God exists, is that in their very nature they reduce God to something comprehensible. If you really have faith in God, it is better to demonstrate it in your actions rather than try and persuade others by argument.

The sage does not contend, and so nobody can contend with him.:bigsmile:

---------- Post added 04-05-2010 at 03:48 PM ----------

Incidentally the idea of 'reality beyond existence' is not a new idea. But it is often lost sight of in the heat and smoke. Pick up a copy of The Case for God by Karen Armstrong. Well worth reading amidst all the tumult.
0 Replies
 
wayne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 12:28 am
@Johnny Fresh,
The proving of God's existence ( non-existence ) is , likely, impossible to do, once you involve another person.

God belief is a very personal question, and will always remain thus. Each individual will add and interpret the evidence for themselves. The evidence, for or against God, is personal by its very nature.

We each experience life in our own way , weighing and evaluating our experiences by our own methods and beliefs. The evidence one sees for God ,will be interpreted differently by any other person. Even believers possess vastly different conceptions.
Rare, is the shared God experience. Most, if not all experiences are unique to the individual. Similarities between experiences, and interpretations, bring believers together, yet each belief is radically individual.

Religion attempts to bring beliefs together, resorting to dogma, the written word, and strict adherence to principles. This doesn't work very well, if you don't believe me just take a look at all the sects, arguements, and splits within the churches.

Many men have tried to prove, or disprove God. All have failed miserably.

True belief or disbelief in God, requires no further proof. It is only the agnostic that seeks such proof.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 01:05 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;148431 wrote:
Alan you are at it again, spreading falsehood. First of all how do you know there isn't a huge area of chance where life could arise? You simply can not make the conclusion that the universe has to be exactly how it currently is for life to arise.



And you fail at chance as well. There is a very rare event called a super nova that happens when a large star exhausts most of it's "fuel" and it can no longer maintain holding itself together, the energy generated in it's core exceeds the gravitational force so it explodes violently. This is a very rare occurrence, yet if you were to look up at the sky on any given night you are guaranteed to see at least ten supernovas. Now a person horrible at statistics such as you, would assume that supernovas are common, they are not. The reason you can see so many on any random night is because there are so many stars and the fact that they have been there for a long time. So this proves that something rare can happen quite often.



No, you insist that god exists, and that is the whole purpose for you writing this. Yet what you claim here is completely bunk. It is poor math and poor reasoning skills.



This is even more absurd because if the universe is meant for humans then why wait so long before making humans? It doesn't make any sense, surely if god is all powerful, then he could have easily designed the universe to support human life immediately and not need to wait. Yet the universe is billions of years old, so why wait so long before creating life? It is obvious, there is no maker behind it and that explains why it took so long.



Like I mentioned previously. Something rare like a supernova happens often. You are horrible with statistics.



Good scientist? You call this what you wrote, good science? It is flawed from the start, flawed in the middle, and flawed in it's conclusion.


I will not be moved from my position of being a theist, hopefully a rational theist. I am aware of the supernova especially in light of the fact that I am an amateur astronomer with my own 10 inch German equatorial mounted reflector telescope. If you say there are hundreds of supernova every night then you must agree that the possibility of intelligent sentient life given, the vastness of the universe, must likewise be huge Extrapolate God into the debatre, with the same logic, then the possibility of a living God or intelligence also increases
0 Replies
 
gavin25
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 12:09 am
@Johnny Fresh,
It annoys me when people say these types of things without identifying the god, or the degree of belief in said god.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 03:27 am
@gavin25,
gavin25;166327 wrote:
It annoys me when people say these types of things without identifying the god, or the degree of belief in said god.


Don't get annoyed try to respond with a telling idea of your own
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 05:20 am
@Johnny Fresh,
Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
If you believe in logic than you believe in God:

You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?
everything must come from something.

now you'll agree that time is a finite thing (ex. if i say, count to a infinity, will you ever reach infinity? No.)

Thus meaning that something immaterial (without matter) and omnipresent (without time) Must have created everything.

As for the then how was god created question

God does not need to be created because he has been around forever, you may say how is this possible. but God is without time. He lives in the past present and future and to him time is a mere physical boundary that us humans live in.
Seems very subjective and speculative imagination, the thing is even the God shared by jews, muslims and christians, it is stated there are indeed other gods, just that there's just 1 true god, who say that this God wasn't created by other gods?
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 05:22 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;166370 wrote:
Seems very subjective and speculative imagination, the thing is even the God shared by jews, muslims and christians, it is stated there are indeed other gods, just that there's just 1 true god, who say that this God wasn't created by other gods?


The problem remains the same be it many gods or one Almighty god we must always thing of the paradox of infinite regression
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 05:24 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;166372 wrote:
the paradox of infinite regression
Could you please put it in lay man terms?
gavin25
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 10:35 am
@Alan McDougall,
Can something come from nothing? Can anyone here answer that question truthfully? Of course not. That is the problem I have with this. It is based of the assumption that all the corners of, for want of a better word, space, far beyond the borders of our own universe, work intuitively and in the same patterns as we've gotten used to here. It is very unlikely that that is so. It didn't start at the big bang, you'll have to delve into branes if you want to find out more.
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2010 01:36 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
God is not God.

God doesn't exist.

That God of whom we think and we talk can't exist:

1. Each person varies in due course. I (5 years) and I (20 years) am different people. All LIVE beings - change.
2. Philosophers think of DEAD GOD for refuse to it VARIABILITY.
3. The concept "ideal" is philosophical error. God is original Person (not ideal), and the peoples is copy original Person. If we vary, means God varies also. And it means that we know that was 2000 years ago about God. We DO NOT KNOW what it now.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 07:54 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;166373 wrote:
Could you please put it in lay man terms?


WeIl infinite regression goes like this; if god exists who made god? and thus who made the entity that made god? and who made the entity that made god adinfinitum


The cosmological argument is an argument for the existence of a First Cause (or instead, an Uncaused cause) to the universe, and by extension is often used as an argument for the existence of an "unconditioned" or "supreme" being, usually then identified as God. It is traditionally known as an argument from universal causation, an argument from first cause, the causal argument or the argument from existence. Whichever term is employed, there are three basic variants of the argument, each with subtle yet important distinctions: the arguments from causation, in esse and in fieri, and the argument from contingency.
The basic premise of all of these is that something caused the Universe to exist, and this First Cause must be God. It has been used by various theologians and philosophers over the centuries, from the ancient Greek Plato and Aristotle to the medieval St. Thomas Aquinas and the 20th century Frederick Copleston.
The argument

The cosmological argument could be stated as follows:
  1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
  2. Nothing finite and contingent can cause itself.
  3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
  4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.
According to the argument, the existence of the Universe requires an explanation, and the creation of the Universe by a First Cause, generally assumed to be God, is that explanation.
In light of the Big Bang theory, a stylized version of argument has emerged (sometimes called the Kalam cosmological argument, the following form of which was set forth by William Lane Craig[5]):
  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
  2. The Universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.


HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 10:09 am
@Johnny Fresh,
Alan McDougall

Thanks for explaining.
0 Replies
 
Abeydube
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 May, 2010 10:26 am
@Johnny Fresh,
The reason why God must exist is simply a human weakenss to have to belong or believe in something bigger than themselves...One cannot be strong enough to follow something without trusting in it at the same time. one also creates something in order to not have all the blame placed on themselves..Those who are given authority look to something bigger than themselves and those in turn look to something Higher ..thats why we have Kings and sadly ..thats why we have gods
threeright
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:33 pm
@Abeydube,
The statement or claim
"Everything MUST have a beginning or cause"

We only know that this statement is true only through inductive reasoning and not deductive reasoning.

An example of Inductive reasoning is if you flipped a coin one-hundred times and they all came up heads. Then, you inductively conclude that the coin will always always come up heads if you flip it.

There is no logical deduction going on when we reason that "Universe needs a cause"

We assume that the statement "Everything MUST have a beginning or cause" is true because almost everything that which we have seen or known up to the present time had a beginning or a cause.

What we do not know is if our universe needs a "Cause." As just because everything else needed a cause doesn't mean the universe NEEDS to have a cause.


Edit: Better example of inductive reasoning would be to suppose I wanted to confirm all peaches have pits. I can't cut up all peaches in the world to see if they all have pits. I can however, cut up 1,000 peaches and see if they all have pits. Then I could inductively conclude the next would would also have it.
0 Replies
 
Night Ripper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:37 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?


No, I disagree.


Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
everything must come from something.


Why?
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 02:52 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;166867 wrote:


The cosmological argument could be stated as follows:
  1. Every finite and contingent being has a cause.
  2. Nothing finite and contingent can cause itself.
  3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
  4. Therefore, a First Cause (or something that is not an effect) must exist.
[/SIZE]
[/LIST]
Argument from analogy fallacy.

First you are assuming that god is not a being that was created. How can you determine that? Why assume that a god or gods were not created? If you just say that a god or gods do not need to be created? Then why can't I claim that the universe need to be created? Sure the theory might be that the universe came into existence, but that theory could be wrong. It could be that the universe has always existed.
Alan McDougall;166867 wrote:


  1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
  2. The Universe began to exist.
  3. Therefore, the Universe had a cause.

[/LIST]
Premise 2 is a guess, there is nothing that gives certainty that the universe began to exist. There is only a theory. So prove to me that the universe did not exist at some point. Don't use some theory, use some evidence. Where is your evidence?

It could be that the universe has always existed. This is a theory, if it were true than the argument is invalid. But that is still not good enough so let's take this a step further.

Infinite loop cycle of causality. That the first cause is actually itself not necessary because the formation of the universe is itself it's own cause. How is that possible? The laws of thermodynamics actually shed light on this theory. Since matter and energy can not be created, it would be a violation of this law to say that matter and energy were created. To maintain consistency with that law, there would have to be a definition that corresponded with that law as to not violate it. Sure you could argue that a god can supersede the laws of physics and thermodynamics but if that is the case why even create a system in the first place? It doesn't rationally make sense.

The infinite loop cycle is that the destruction of a universe either by tearing itself apart or an implosion would actually spark the creation of another universe in the process.

This last theory actually holds if you know anything about Buddhism. The Buddha taught that ignorance is the first cause. Yet he actually goes on to state that there is no end of ignorance. Which for most that seems like a contradiction in terms. It's not a contradiction because ignorance breeds ignorance endlessly. It is only when you transcend ignorance that you bypass it's effects, so it still exists however you are no long subject to it's effects. According to Buddhism you don't need a creator because the illusion of existence is the first cause which then believes itself to be a being existing within a universe.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 06:06 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
We could we mean by God? And how can this meaning transcend human experience? Assuming that existence needs a cause, this same cause could be demanded for God.

Causality is psychologically but not logically justified, in my opinion. It's a useful way to organize experience. In my opinion, if we want to claim logic as a friend, we have to examine our most basic concepts, to see if we are not making dangerous assumptions.

If memory serves, Kant treated causality as something we projected on things, and Hume reduced it to correlation. As much as I generally like Kant, I'm not sure he sufficiently countered Hume. Wittgenstein agrees. Isn't causality an induction? Obviously we can't and don't live without it, but does this make it logically strong enough to argue for the logical necessity of a God?

And what do we mean by "logical"? Do we mean tautological? Or do we mean a coherence between our propositions and metaphors? In my view, abstractions are usually dead metaphors. And perhaps we all have the life experience to know that the same words are used differently in different sentences by different humans in different contexts. We simply don't have a precise enough language to work in tautologies, and only tautology seems to me like logical necessity.

I feel we have to look at the nature of thought. What can "God" mean to us? Is God a system of propositions? A feeling? An explanation?

If we allow God to be the final explanation, is this because a personal God is a more tolerable (pseudo-) explanation than the one we (don't) have already? Perhaps our unexplained everyday human reality is "God" enough?
 

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