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Logical explanation: why a god must exist

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 08:54 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;108199 wrote:
I think the statement "I am not an atheist" is, however, fairly unequivocal. I am also 'not an atheist' in a similar way to Einstein, and for similar reasons.


Spinoza kept telling his fellow Jews in Amsterdam that he was not an atheist. They excommunicated him anyway, because they argued that believing in his God was tantmount to atheism. And, one of the charges against Socrates, for which is was sentenced to death, was atheism. He denied he was an atheist, too. By the way, all of us are atheists, even those of us who just believe in one fewer god.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 09:47 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;108325 wrote:
By the way, all of us are atheists, even those of us who just believe in one fewer god.
The prefix "a" or "an" means none, not fewer. Anesthesia = no sensation. Amoral = no morals.

Not that it matters. People don't execute one another over more/less vs some/none. Being unorthodox is all that mattered for Spinoza (i think being perceived as subversive is what mattered for Socrates).
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 10:20 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;108358 wrote:
The prefix "a" or "an" means none, not fewer. Anesthesia = no sensation. Amoral = no morals.

Not that it matters. People don't execute one another over more/less vs some/none. Being unorthodox is all that mattered for Spinoza (i think being perceived as subversive is what mattered for Socrates).



There are many gods I do not believe it. And relative to all of them, I am an atheist, and so are you, even if you believe in just one god. Of course, for the Jews there is no God but Yaweh, so not believing in Yaweh is atheism.

I don't really know what you mean by "mattered for" but since Spinoza did not believe in Yaweh, he was an atheist for the Jews of Amsterdam. One of the two main charges against Socrates was atheism.
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 03:58 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Spinoza and Socrates were both understood as undermining or rejecting religious orthdoxy, as indeed they did. But their type of religiosity, if you can call it that, is far more sophisticated than that of the average believer, as was Einstein's. But they were all geniuses (genii?)

The challenges modern people are facing are somewhat different. There is a strong tendency in secular society to deny anything spiritual whatever. In fact, in some parts of the industrialised world, any kind of religiosity is beginning to be equated with superstition. There are 'secular activists' who wish to ban all reference to anything religious in public life. But this also creates many serious problems and leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

In science there are many partial answers and loose ends, but I think the sense of a coherent scientific world picture is more remote now than it was 100 years ago. Besides, the 'scientific' depiction of man is often completely de-humanising. In society, secularity often leads to ethical relativism, which reduces moral judgement to matters of private opinion. And indeed for many moderns there is a pervasive feeling of alienation and meaninglessness which you can only fill by shopping, drinking, and being entertained. (Welcome to the Mall....)

So the point about 'belief in God' is that it gives the believer a sense of his/her place in the scheme of things, a feeling that their life matters and their decisions are of real consequence. The alternative seems to be that phrase which eloquently sums up the outlook of a lot of modern teens, as spoken by eminent social philosopher, Bart Simpson: "Whatever".

Myself, personally - I never argue for or against the existence of God (other than to point out what might be involved in asking the question). It is a futile argument. But I strongly believe in the existence of moral law.
0 Replies
 
Alexandergreat3
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:15 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;108293 wrote:
Well ok then. That explains it, glad we have that all sorted.

---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 10:33 PM ----------

Sorry, that was sarcastic. I try to refrain from sarcasm on the forum (and elsewhere.)

On a more serious note, because this is a serious point - it may indeed be the case that 'Deity' is behind the lawful nature of phenomena. But whether it is or not, it is fair to say that 'why science works' is not actually a scientific question. Why there are natural laws, and why mathematics is so spookily predictive of the nature of realities we have never seen, are not actually questions that are in scope for either science or mathematics.

Scientists and mathematicians often forget this but I am sure it is true.


When I read Einstein's quote when he said he believe in a "Spinoza's God but not a personal God" (a God in a form of a person), I understood what he meant. It means that what Einstein saw is not a super omnipotent man in white robe, but he saw laws of nature and the logic that truly exist.

The more I think about it, the more it made sense.

For instance, the laws of nature are "omnipresent" - the laws and logic of nature are everywhere, and there is no escaping them.

The laws and logic of nature are "omnipotent" - everything is bounded by them.

The laws and logic of nature are fair and impartial - they don't care whether a person is rich or poor, tall or short, they just follow a set of laws and logic. A rich, strong, beautiful, smart person is more likely to survive and past on their genes to the next generation than their counterpart, but this is simply due to the laws of natural selection and evolution and logic.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 11:56 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
I think in a very similar way. However, if there were Deity (and I'm not saying there is or isn't), I think many need to conceptualise it as something other than a completely impersonal principle, or just of an objectification of natural law. (Of course, this is exactly the tendency because of which Spinoza got into trouble with the religious authorities). However, even his 'intellectual love of God' was actually very religious:

Quote:
'The love of God is man's only true good....Only the knowledge of God will enable us to subdue our hurtful passions....This knowledge in time leads to the love of God, which is the soul's union with Him'. (Quoted in R. M. Bucke, Cosmic Consciousness, p229)


So perhaps there is a gnostic element in Spinoza's thought also...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 02:44 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;108471 wrote:
However, even his 'intellectual love of God' was actually very religious:


.


Maybe "spiritual" (whatever that means) but hardly religious.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 03:01 am
@Johnny Fresh,
OK I think you're right. It is probably important to differentiate those two terms.
0 Replies
 
Alexandergreat3
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 03:45 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;108471 wrote:
I think in a very similar way. However, if there were Deity (and I'm not saying there is or isn't), I think many need to conceptualise it as something other than a completely impersonal principle, or just of an objectification of natural law.


If there is a "God" who is completely impartial, omnipotent, and omnipresent, I really don't see the difference between this "God" and universal law and logic.

Do you see any differences?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 04:05 am
@Johnny Fresh,
I don't see any major differences but I don't want to downplay the profound nature of such a reality. And that it is living, not just conceptual.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Dec, 2009 03:23 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;108369 wrote:
There are many gods I do not believe it. And relative to all of them, I am an atheist, and so are you, even if you believe in just one god. Of course, for the Jews there is no God but Yaweh, so not believing in Yaweh is atheism.

I don't really know what you mean by "mattered for" but since Spinoza did not believe in Yaweh, he was an atheist for the Jews of Amsterdam. One of the two main charges against Socrates was atheism.
Well of course people use words improperly all the time but technically they were heretics not atheists.

---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 01:34 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Alexandergreat3;108468] When I read Einstein's quote when he said he believe in a "Spinoza's God but not a personal God" (a God in a form of a person), I understood what he meant. It means that what Einstein saw is not a super omnipotent man in white robe, but he saw laws of nature and the logic that truly exist. [/QUOTE] I think Einstein felt that there was some form of rational intelligence behind the universe. The "not a personal god" comment I think goes further than just rejecting anthropomorphism. There is also the notion that individual lives and human morals may not be high on the list of divine values and goals.

[QUOTE=Alexandergreat3;108468] The laws and logic of nature are fair and impartial - they don't care whether a person is rich or poor, tall or short, they just follow a set of laws and logic. A rich, strong, beautiful, smart person is more likely to survive and past on their genes to the next generation than their counterpart, but this is simply due to the laws of natural selection and evolution and logic [/QUOTE] The history of the universe and the principles of nature are a slaughter (struggle for existence, mass extinctions). It is hard to look at the universe and think that saving "souls" or the preservation of individual lives is the purpose behind everything. I find it easier to conceive of "creative advance" or the "creation of value" as the divine purpose. I find I need to conceive of the universe as something other than blind purposeless accidental indifferent process. For me that is the fundamental divide between atheism and theism (that notion of greater or transcendent purpose or aims).

---------- Post added 12-06-2009 at 01:40 PM ----------

Alexandergreat3;108498 wrote:
If there is a "God" who is completely impartial, omnipotent, and omnipresent, I really don't see the difference between this "God" and universal law and logic.

Do you see any differences?

There is a profound difference between "indifferent" and "impartial".
There is a profound difference between the notion that the universe has underlying aim and purpose "creative advance" "formation of value" and the notion that the universe is blind, indifferent purposeless laws.
One may conceive that god acts through nature and natural law (process) and acts in human history (inspiration, reason and wisdom) without conceiving of god as portrayed in orthodox, medieval or classical theism (supernatural theism).
There is no logical explanation why a god must exist. There are just those who look at the universe and reject the notion of blind indifference.
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 08:55 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Time is infinite yes but it is just an aspect of reality. Someone cannot create an aspect such as the idea of space. It's just a part of our reality. Just because time is infinite this does not mean it has to a creator also that is infinite. Logic tells me that doesn't exist in matter doesn't exist at all outside the idea thereof. Like prothero said a few pages back near the beginning, our reality all are based off a certain undeniable truth. I think that the statement "i think therefore i am" is one of these assumed axioms that proves our existence. Basically we can more or less create the reality we live in by choosing which undeniable truth we choose to believe in. Your reality is based off god being a truth while others may not. I'm not one to determine whose beliefs are correct.

I hope you know all of us god haters out there aren't looking to be *******s but we will if the truth of god is shoved in our face. Our decisions will be our decisions and if not everyone believes in your truths than that doesn't mean you should go out there and try and force others to accept and follow. We atheists have our own opinions on Christians but it's not some kind of battle for us we don't go an preach to everyone about it. It comes down to choices and what you choose to accept, but please keep it to yourself. No one will mind you then, i'm pretty sure everyone has at least enough respect to let you follow your religion. Your ideas of truth are your own and shouldn't be forced upon anyone.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 09:04 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
I am interested to know how discussion of ideas of this nature on a computer forum can be regarded as shoving anything in someone's face. I mean, it is not like standing on a street corner, harrasing strangers and handing out leaflets. What are you so annoyed about?
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 11:50 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
If you believe in logic than you believe in God:

You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?
everything must come from something.

now you'll agree that time is a finite thing (ex. if i say, count to a infinity, will you ever reach infinity? No.)

Thus meaning that something immaterial (without matter) and omnipresent (without time) Must have created everything.

As for the then how was god created question

God does not need to be created because he has been around forever, you may say how is this possible. but God is without time. He lives in the past present and future and to him time is a mere physical boundary that us humans live in.


Read some Kant. "Proofs" of God go way back. People tend to find logical whatever they want to believe. It's not that God is a silly idea, but that these arguments are not going to cut it. Smile
0 Replies
 
Yogi DMT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:42 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;109701 wrote:
I am interested to know how discussion of ideas of this nature on a computer forum can be regarded as shoving anything in someone's face. I mean, it is not like standing on a street corner, harrasing strangers and handing out leaflets. What are you so annoyed about?


Nothing personal to whoever decides to advocate his view on a forum but typically religious people are always trying to convince everyone of how they belief life works and all. It irks me that some religious people can be so intolerant of other views. His thread states "why a god must exist", he's trying to tell and convince us that god really exists. He's not be rude about it cause these are just forums but it can get annoying.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 09:03 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;103116 wrote:
"That's true for you but not for me" sort of thing. This is ridiculous, in my opinion. Clearly there are many things we have intersubjectivity concerning, many things in which there is consensus for. To say everything is relative is to ignore so many blatant similarities and concurrences, I would be forced to call the one who said this a fool.

When a person says that sort of thing they aren't usually talking about ham sandwiches or grandfather clocks. Most relativism, IMO, has to do with morality and the truth of abstract statements. Few indeed, in my experience, argue about sense-data.
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2010 11:15 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
The second coming will occur in 2035. I have proofs. Listen!. In the USA you such anywhere will not hear. God communicated with Mankind. John's revelation: Beast Number - 666? Yes! Wish to know, who "Beast" named apostle John? Then open the Gospel from John chapter 6 a verse 66 and read. You learn the Beast.

---------- Post added 03-24-2010 at 12:19 AM ----------

It not coincidence.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 01:01 am
@prothero,
prothero;102392 wrote:
All fundamental ontological arguments rely on at least one postulated or assumed axiom (not proven, not provable, just accepted). Incompleteness theorems there is no provable or logically possible theory of everything without initial assumptions.
You are free to "assume god" if you wish but others are free "to deny,deny,deny".
I am a theist but I think first cause arguments are flawed and useless.


It isn't clear to me that when someone says that God must exist, what he is saying is that it is impossible that God should not exist. He may just be saying that given the evidence for God, it follows that God exists. So, the ontological argument need have nothing to do with it.

There is a difference between saying that God necessarily exists, and saying that given the evidence for God, God (does) exist. To confuse the two is known as the modal fallacy.

By the way, I don't think that the view that it is impossible to prove anything without initial assumptions (premises) has anything to to with the idea of incompleteness or with Godel. It, I would think, has to do with the idea that in order to prove anything you need an argument, and in order to have an argument, you need to have premises.
0 Replies
 
Theologikos
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 07:15 pm
@Johnny Fresh,
Johnny Fresh;99378 wrote:
If you believe in logic than you believe in God:

You agree that nothing cannot create something, right?
everything must come from something.

now you'll agree that time is a finite thing (ex. if i say, count to a infinity, will you ever reach infinity? No.)

Thus meaning that something immaterial (without matter) and omnipresent (without time) Must have created everything.

As for the then how was god created question

God does not need to be created because he has been around forever, you may say how is this possible. but God is without time. He lives in the past present and future and to him time is a mere physical boundary that us humans live in.


Firstly, no. I do not believe that nothing cannot create something. In Quantum Mechanics, nothing can create something.

I also do not think time is always finite. In fact for time to be finite, there must be a beginning of time and an end. Because the universe is expanding and will expand infinitely, time is moving in an infinite ray from the big bang. (Ignoring that QM makes time move in both directions because nothing is actually active)

I do agree with your third section! Yes! "nothing" is immaterial and and possibly at some point, omnipresent.

If you define existence in time, then god cannot exist outside of time. But if you are to take the stance that God exists outside of time I will counter that as well.

There is no before and after. God cannot create anything without time. You need time to go from one state to another. The act of creation requires time. The being would first need to create time which is impossible because time is required in the creation of it. If time existed without needing to be created, god would not be the fundamental reason for everything else.

Time is not a human invention. Gravity is not a human invention. How we measure them are.
north
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 09:00 pm
@Theologikos,
Theologikos;146408 wrote:
Firstly, no. I do not believe that nothing cannot create something. In Quantum Mechanics, nothing can create something.

I also do not think time is always finite. In fact for time to be finite, there must be a beginning of time and an end. Because the universe is expanding and will expand infinitely, time is moving in an infinite ray from the big bang. (Ignoring that QM makes time move in both directions because nothing is actually active)

I do agree with your third section! Yes! "nothing" is immaterial and and possibly at some point, omnipresent.

If you define existence in time, then god cannot exist outside of time. But if you are to take the stance that God exists outside of time I will counter that as well.

There is no before and after. God cannot create anything without time. You need time to go from one state to another. The act of creation requires time. The being would first need to create time which is impossible because time is required in the creation of it. If time existed without needing to be created, god would not be the fundamental reason for everything else.


Quote:
Time is not a human invention. Gravity is not a human invention. How we measure them are.


actually both time and gravity are a Human invention though

time is based on the movement of things , interactions of things , gravity is the result rotation and the vibration
 

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