Are you proud?

@sometime sun,

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

What is your future becoming? what history are you trying to get away from?)

As an Amercian, I would say the future doesn't look so grim. Could be worse, right? Recessions happen every twenty years or so, one thing leads to another, etc etc etc. If I had to guess what history Americans are trying to get away from, I don't think it would be so much trying to get away from it but trying to rectify what was wrong in the past. I see evidence of this in the foundation of my country, the constitution. Amendments, for example, are markers of wrongs righted and an absence of things that need to be addressed.

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

Are you proud of your country, your place of birth, your birthright as a citizen?

Sure, who wouldn't be proud of their own respective countries of origin. It's the country I was born and raised in, and have become accustomed to. If I were to judge my country based off of historical instances and what not, I would still say that yes, I am very proud of my country. There have been numerous wrongs committed by the United States, to both citizens and non-citizens. But I genuinely believe that the U.S. attempts to rectify many of these wrongs. Whether or not those rectifications come willingly or by some other means, there is still some attempt to do what is right and in the best interest of the entire nation.

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

What makes your country better than mine?

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

What brings you shame of your country nationality vote?

Nothing. The United States is, regardless of what many people would say, a free and democratic country. There have been very huge hurdles to overcome in the past, but as the nation progresses, those kinks will be continually smoothed over.

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

What dose your country contribute to the world and what does it steal?
(what would you give back? Elgin marbles, Macdonalds, etc)

Perhaps one thing is a model for the first functional modern democracy. On that note, many of the nations of the world rely on U.S. constitutional framework for their own countries. That's a very important export. What does it steal? I hear that American's steal oil, freedom, the ozone layer, etc. LOL!

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

Are you a citizen? Are you proud of your contry and dose it make you who you are? (prideful, shameful, veto)

sometime sun;119064 wrote:

What is the best counrty in the world?
(you can pick your own just give a reason)

Of course, I would say the United States of America. I have grown quite partial to it. There are numerous reasons why I am partial to it, suffice to say that I would prefer it more than most other countries.

1 Reply

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon;119072 wrote:

I would not be particularly proud to come from Yemen, or from Saudi Arabia, or Uganda. What is there to be proud of? Of course, I am looking at it objectively (or trying to).

Why aren't some countries better than others. Some countries have relatively good government. Some are corrupt, and tyrannical. Some countries have a glorious history, and some have none or very little. Some have produced very great people. Some have produced very few if any. Some have contributed much to the world. Some have contributed nothing, or even less than nothing. Countries are no more equal in merit than are people.

2 Replies

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119144 wrote:

I would not be particularly proud to come from Yemen, or from Saudi Arabia, or Uganda. What is there to be proud of? Of course, I am looking at it objectively (or trying to).

Why aren't some countries better than others. Some countries have relatively good government. Some are corrupt, and tyrannical. Some countries have a glorious history, and some have none or very little. Some have produced very great people. Some have produced very few if any. Some have contributed much to the world. Some have contributed nothing, or even less than nothing. Countries are no more equal in merit than are people.

Yes, but I am wondering at a more basic level; why would someone be proud of things that are beyond one's control, and are not a part of oneself? To give a trivial sort of example, why should someone be proud of the local athletic team, if they are not themselves part of the team? The team's performance is not a reflection on the person, so why would the person be proud of this?

The same idea applies to place of birth; one does not choose one's place of birth, so why be proud of it? That choice, insofar as it was a choice, was made by someone else.

I am reminded of the funny song by Gilbert and Sullivan, part of which is:

[INDENT][INDENT]For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman! [/INDENT][/INDENT]

Of course, this is but a joke in a comic opera, but why would anyone be serious about such a thing?

2 Replies

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;119156 wrote:

Yes, but I am wondering at a more basic level; why would someone be proud of things that are beyond one's control, and are not a part of oneself? To give a trivial sort of example, why should someone be proud of the local athletic team, if they are not themselves part of the team? The team's performance is not a reflection on the person, so why would the person be proud of this?

The same idea applies to place of birth; one does not choose one's place of birth, so why be proud of it? That choice, insofar as it was a choice, was made by someone else.

I am reminded of the funny song by Gilbert and Sullivan, part of which is:[INDENT][INDENT]For he himself has said it,
And it's greatly to his credit,
That he is an Englishman! [/INDENT][/INDENT]Of course, this is but a joke in a comic opera, but why would anyone be serious about such a thing?

Yes, I see what you mean. But if one were the child of a great man, then one could very well be proud of it. First of all, you can be proud of the parent because he had done something great. That doesn't mean you are proud of yourself. Second, you can be proud of the parent because, "his blood runs in your veins" and there might be a genetic inheritance. Just as what you do can reflect on your parents, so what they do, can reflect on you. Thus we have the phrase, "basking in reflected glory" (as does the Moon the Sun). I can certainly be proud of George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln. Of whom can Ugandans take pride in?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119158 wrote:

Yes, I see what you mean. But if one were the child of a great man, then one could very well be proud of it. First of all, you can be proud of the parent because he had done something great. That doesn't mean you are proud of yourself. Second, you can be proud of the parent because, "his blood runs in your veins" and there might be a genetic inheritance. Just as what you do can reflect on your parents, so what they do, can reflect on you. Thus we have the phrase, "basking in reflected glory" (as does the Moon the Sun). I can certainly be proud of George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln. Of whom can Ugandans take pride in?

Just because the blood of a great man "runs in your veins", that does not make you great. If you found out that you were really switched at birth, and it turns out that your father was a mass murderer, it would not change what you are. You are what you are regardless of what your father was, though, naturally, you share some genetic similarities. But genetic similarities do not mean that one is very much like the other person; for example, normal people can have mentally retarded children, and the children are no smarter than they are simply because their parents are normal. Or, to express the same basic idea differently, a man is not a great man just because his father is, and he does not fail to be a great man simply because his father failed to be a great man. I think people tend to imagine themselves better than they are because of things that are irrelevant to their own actual worth.

If you, for example, had been born in Uganda, but were raised as you were raised, it would not make you a worse person. Likewise, if it turned out that you were the result of artificial insemination, and the clinic mixed things up, so that your father was Hitler, it would not make you worse than you are. Nor would it make you better if it turned out instead that it was a different mixup, and your father was Einstein.

Now, from the other way around, if one raised one's own children, then the children's conduct, insofar as it was influenced by how one raised the children, could be a source of pride or shame, because then it would be because of what one did. But unless you have influenced your parents, it seems odd to say that one is "proud" of them, unless one is imagining some further connection than there is.

As for your claims that "First of all, you can be proud of the parent because he had done something great. That doesn't mean you are proud of yourself.", seems a bit odd when I look up the word "proud" in a dictionary:

Quote:

proud adjective, -er, -est, adverb

-adjective
1. feeling pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to oneself (often fol. by of, an infinitive, or a clause).
2. having, proceeding from, or showing a high opinion of one's own dignity, importance, or superiority.
3. having or showing self-respect or self-esteem.
4. highly gratifying to the feelings or self-esteem: It was a proud day for him when his son entered college.
5. highly honorable or creditable: a proud achievement.
6. stately, majestic, or magnificent: proud cities.
7. of lofty dignity or distinction: a proud name; proud nobles.
8. Chiefly South Midland and Southern U.S. pleased; happy: I'm proud to meet you.
9. full of vigor and spirit: a proud young stallion.
10. Obsolete. brave.
-Idiom
11. do one proud,
a. to be a source of pride or credit to a person: His conduct in such a difficult situation did him proud.
b. to treat someone or oneself generously or lavishly: You really did us proud with this supper.

Proud Definition | Definition of Proud at Dictionary.com

There seems to me to be, by definition, a reference to self when one is proud. So I don't know what you mean by your sentences quoted just above the definitions. One might respect and admire the achievements of others, but it seems to make little sense to be proud of such things.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;119161 wrote:

Just because the blood of a great man "runs in your veins", that does not make you great. If you found out that you were really switched at birth, and it turns out that your father was a mass murderer, it would not change what you are. You are what you are regardless of what your father was, though, naturally, you share some genetic similarities. But genetic similarities do not mean that one is very much like the other person; for example, normal people can have mentally retarded children, and the children are no smarter than they are simply because their parents are normal. Or, to express the same basic idea differently, a man is not a great man just because his father is, and he does not fail to be a great man simply because his father failed to be a great man. I think people tend to imagine themselves better than they are because of things that are irrelevant to their own actual worth.

If you, for example, had been born in Uganda, but were raised as you were raised, it would not make you a worse person. Likewise, if it turned out that you were the result of artificial insemination, and the clinic mixed things up, so that your father was Hitler, it would not make you worse than you are. Nor would it make you better if it turned out instead that it was a different mixup, and your father was Einstein.

Now, from the other way around, if one raised one's own children, then the children's conduct, insofar as it was influenced by how one raised the children, could be a source of pride or shame, because then it would be because of what one did. But unless you have influenced your parents, it seems odd to say that one is "proud" of them, unless one is imagining some further connection than there is.

As for your claims that "First of all, you can be proud of the parent because he had done something great. That doesn't mean you are proud of yourself.", seems a bit odd when I look up the word "proud" in a dictionary:

Proud Definition | Definition of Proud at Dictionary.com

There seems to me to be, by definition, a reference to self when one is proud. So I don't know what you mean by your sentences quoted just above the definitions. One might respect and admire the achievements of others, but it seems to make little sense to be proud of such things.

Just because the blood of a great man "runs in your veins", that does not make you great. If you found out that you were really switched at birth, and it turns out that your father was a mass murderer, it would not change what you are.

It is certainly not true that just because your parent is great, you will be great. But, it does not follow from that, that you haven't a better chance of being great if your parent was. No doubt, you are what you are. But I think you may have missed my point. My point was that you may be proud of your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself. I can be nothing much, but I can still be proud of my forebears, and of my country. It need not have anything to do with pride in myself. I may be proud to be an American because Washington, and Lincoln were Americans, and they were my countrymen. If I were a Ugandese then I still might still be the person I am now, but I would not be proud of being a Ugandese. There is still nothing to be proud of, although I might be proud of myself for not turning out to be like other Ugandese. I might consider that to have been a lucky escape. I may be misinformed, but I know nothing of which Yemenese have to be proud of. But I know much that Americans have to be proud of. Don't you?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119167 wrote:

... But I think you may have missed my point. My point was that you may be proud of your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself. I can be nothing much, but I can still be proud of my forebears, and of my country. It need not have anything to do with pride in myself. ...

I think you are misusing the word "proud". At least by all of the relevant definitions I have quoted above, "proud" contains a reference to an attitude toward oneself.

I am, of course, familiar with people saying things like, "I am proud of my country", but very often, that is meant as a boast of some sort, such that the person feels as though they are better for it. They are, as I indicated above, wrong about that, but in being wrong in that way, they are not misusing the term; they are simply wrong. But unless there is a definition of "proud" of which I am unaware, you are misusing the term, as it is like saying,

[INDENT]you may feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to yourself regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]

or

[INDENT]you may have a high opinion of your own dignity, importance, or superiority regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]

or

[INDENT]you may have or show self-respect or self-esteem regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]

Being proud, by definition, has reference to one's attitude toward oneself. If you disagree, please find a definition of the term "proud" from an ordinary dictionary that fits with what you are saying, and let me know what the definition is, and where you got it.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;119214 wrote:

I think you are misusing the word "proud". At least by all of the relevant definitions I have quoted above, "proud" contains a reference to an attitude toward oneself.

I am, of course, familiar with people saying things like, "I am proud of my country", but very often, that is meant as a boast of some sort, such that the person feels as though they are better for it. They are, as I indicated above, wrong about that, but in being wrong in that way, they are not misusing the term; they are simply wrong. But unless there is a definition of "proud" of which I am unaware, you are misusing the term, as it is like saying,
[INDENT]you may feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable to yourself regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]or
[INDENT]you may have a high opinion of your own dignity, importance, or superiority regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]or
[INDENT]you may have or show self-respect or self-esteem regarding your progenitors independently of being proud of yourself[/INDENT]
Being proud, by definition, has reference to one's attitude toward oneself. If you disagree, please find a definition of the term "proud" from an ordinary dictionary that fits with what you are saying, and let me know what the definition is, and where you got it.

Are you really saying that I cannot be proud of the achievements of my son, or of my country? Why, in order to do that, must I have some kind of admiration for myself? If the dictionary implies that I must, then the dictionary is clearly wrong. If black Americans are proud of Martin Luther King, must that mean they are boasting about themselves?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119144 wrote:

I would not be particularly proud to come from Yemen, or from Saudi Arabia, or Uganda. What is there to be proud of? Of course, I am looking at it objectively (or trying to).

Uganda:

Proud of getting rid of Idi Amin (depending on what you thought of him)
Proud of developing a new political culture after it
Proud of 12% economic growth in 2008 following decades of economic disaster
Proud of a growing services sector
Proud of having 40 different languages spoken (or perhaps not so proud, depends how you look at it)
etc.

So you see it's all relative. The same kind of things can be said of Yemen and Saudi Arabia too.

1 Reply

@josh0335,

josh0335;119322 wrote:

Uganda:

Proud of getting rid of Idi Amin (depending on what you thought of him)
Proud of developing a new political culture after it
Proud of 12% economic growth in 2008 following decades of economic disaster
Proud of a growing services sector
Proud of having 40 different languages spoken (or perhaps not so proud, depends how you look at it)
etc.

So you see it's all relative. The same kind of things can be said of Yemen and Saudi Arabia too.

Yes, but so what? The question is whether I can be proud of something I, myself, had no hand in? Suppose I had no hand in getting rid of Idi Amin. Can I be proud of it or ashamed of it? Let's remember what the question is about.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119269 wrote:

Are you really saying that I cannot be proud of the achievements of my son, or of my country? Why, in order to do that, must I have some kind of admiration for myself? If the dictionary implies that I must, then the dictionary is clearly wrong. If black Americans are proud of Martin Luther King, must that mean they are boasting about themselves?

Notice the way even you word it: proud of MY son, proud of MY country. Pride is essentially a feeling having to do with self worth, and what is happening in many such cases is the same kind of thing as guilt by association, except instead of guilt, it is a positive feeling. One is not proud of something to which the word "my" cannot apply. One may respect and admire or even be in awe of something else, but the word "proud" is not applicable to things that do not have reference to oneself.

1 Reply

@Pyrrho,

Pyrrho;119347 wrote:

Notice the way even you word it: proud of MY son, proud of MY country. Pride is essentially a feeling having to do with self worth, and what is happening in many such cases is the same kind of thing as guilt by association, except instead of guilt, it is a positive feeling. One is not proud of something to which the word "my" cannot apply. One may respect and admire or even be in awe of something else, but the word "proud" is not applicable to things that do not have reference to oneself.

Hmmm. You are beginning to move me, I admit. Is it illegitimate, then, to be proud of my son unless I believe I had something to do with his accomplishments? What, exactly is your view on this?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119330 wrote:

Yes, but so what? The question is whether I can be proud of something I, myself, had no hand in? Suppose I had no hand in getting rid of Idi Amin. Can I be proud of it or ashamed of it? Let's remember what the question is about.

Perhaps you missed your own quote which I was responding to:

"I would not be particularly proud to come from Yemen, or from Saudi Arabia, or Uganda. What is there to be proud of? Of course, I am looking at it objectively (or trying to)."

You're implying that those who come from certain countries (like US) have things to be proud of but people from Uganda etc. don't. I've demonstrated that there are things that people from Uganda can be proud of, similar to people from the US. It's all relative. I wasn't focussing on the semantics of 'proud'. I'll leave that to you and Pyrrho.

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119353 wrote:

Hmmm. You are beginning to move me, I admit. Is it illegitimate, then, to be proud of my son unless I believe I had something to do with his accomplishments? What, exactly is your view on this?

Yes, I believe it is mistaken to be proud of your son unless you believe you had something to do with his accomplishments or what he is (i.e., his character). You may, of course, respect and admire him regardless of whether you had anything to do with his accomplishments or character. Presumably, if you raised your son, you had something to do with his character, so it is likely that feeling pride in your son, if he is good, is not misplaced; though, of course, it could be that the son turned out well in spite of (rather than because of) what the father has done, in which case, the father ought not feel proud.

In practice, many people take credit for things for which they are not responsible, but to which they are very loosely connected, as in the example I have already given, the local athletic team. The team, being in some sense representative of the city (or area) where the person lives, often results in the person feeling proud when the team succeeds. And the fact that such people are giving themselves credit for things they have not done is well shown by them commonly saying, when the local team won, "we won."

Frankly, I think the "extension" of pride beyond its proper bounds in such cases is due to primitive ideas of what one is. If, for example, we look at the Bible, we find that punishments sometimes go onto the children of those who commit the crime, as if they were all somehow responsible, or tainted, by the original crime. For example (1 Samuel 3):

Quote:

11 And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.

12 In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end.

13 For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not.

In this, God says he punishes the future generations for what Eli and his sons have done. It is as if the grandchildren (and great grandchildren, etc.) are regarded as merely extensions of Eli, instead of viewing them as individuals who may or may not turn out fine. In other words, it is a failure to distinguish between what one person does and what those associated with the person does.

Many people think in such ways, and so they end up feeling proud of the home team, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with the accomplishments of the local team. Or, to be more accurate, many people fail to think, and so they end up with primitive and ill-formed conceptions of what makes themselves good or bad.

Edited to add:

As a side point, there are interesting differences in Biblical stories for how far the blame should extend to future generations for what someone has done, as in Exodus 34:

Quote:

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

In this case, the "taint" only lasts for four generations, and does not extend forever for all future generations. This same amount of time appears in Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9, and Numbers 14:18.

In Deuteronomy 23:2, the blame extends to ten generations:

Quote:

A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

Fortunately, the laws of modern societies do not work in such a manner.

1 Reply

@josh0335,

josh0335;119359 wrote:

Perhaps you missed your own quote which I was responding to:

"I would not be particularly proud to come from Yemen, or from Saudi Arabia, or Uganda. What is there to be proud of? Of course, I am looking at it objectively (or trying to)."

You're implying that those who come from certain countries (like US) have things to be proud of but people from Uganda etc. don't. I've demonstrated that there are things that people from Uganda can be proud of, similar to people from the US. It's all relative. I wasn't focussing on the semantics of 'proud'. I'll leave that to you and Pyrrho.

What would people from Uganda be proud of? Idi Amin, or their current corrupt government? You certainly have not demonstrated they have anything to be proud of.

How could anyone know what to be proud of unless he knew the meaning of the word, "proud"? Or, what you call "the semantics" of the word, "proud". Suppose the person said that he was proud of Idi Amin because Idi Amin was a murdering buffoon. Would you think the person knew the semantics (meaning) of the word, "proud"? Would it be "all relative" whether someone could be proud of a murdering buffoon? Some people may admire murdering buffoons, and some may not. It is just a matter of taste. Is that right?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119364 wrote:

What would people from Uganda be proud of? Idi Amin, or their current corrupt government? You certainly have not demonstrated they have anything to be proud of.

I gave you a short list. Here, I'll give it again with some emphasis added:

Proud of getting rid of Idi Amin (depending on what you thought of him)
Proud of developing a new political culture after it
Proud of 12% economic growth in 2008 following decades of economic disaster
Proud of a growing services sector
Proud of having 40 different languages spoken (or perhaps not so proud, depends how you look at it)
etc.

Would you not be proud of the above? Are you missing the point that what achievements one is proud of is relative to their situation?

1 Reply

@josh0335,

josh0335;119365 wrote:

I gave you a short list. Here, I'll give it again with some emphasis added:

Proud of getting rid of Idi Amin (depending on what you thought of him)
Proud of developing a new political culture after it
Proud of 12% economic growth in 2008 following decades of economic disaster
Proud of a growing services sector
Proud of having 40 different languages spoken (or perhaps not so proud, depends how you look at it)
etc.

Would you not be proud of the above? Are you missing the point that what achievements one is proud of is relative to their situation?

(I don't know who you mean by "their", the person who is proud, or the person he is proud of) but do you really mean that someone can be proud of his leader being an ignorant and tyrannical buffoon? Just how would that work? How, for instance, would you look at a tyrannical, ignorant, buffoon? With pride and admiration?

1 Reply

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;119368 wrote:

(I don't know who you mean by "their", the person who is proud, or the person he is proud of) but do you really mean that someone can be proud of his leader being an ignorant and tyrannical buffoon? Just how would that work? How, for instance, would you look at a tyrannical, ignorant, buffoon? With pride and admiration?

Who's the tyrannical ignorant buffoon? Where did I say one should be proud of such a leader?

I don't really understand what you're getting at. Perhaps you could respond to each thing in my list and tell me why the people of Uganda should not be proud of each thing in that list. So you could tell me why Ugandans should not be proud that their country achieved 12% growth in 2008.

1 Reply

@josh0335,

josh0335;119374 wrote:

Who's the tyrannical ignorant buffoon? Where did I say one should be proud of such a leader?

I don't really understand what you're getting at. Perhaps you could respond to each thing in my list and tell me why the people of Uganda should not be proud of each thing in that list. So you could tell me why Ugandans should not be proud that their country achieved 12% growth in 2008.

If you say that it is all relative, and that you can be proud of anything, then why can't you be proud of Uganda having had an ignorant tyrannical buffoon like Idi Imin as a leader? And, again, if it is all relative, then why can't someone be ashamed of being a Ugandan, and there being a 12% growth in 2008? Remember, it is all relative-so you wrote.

1 Reply

Are you proud?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know