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What is your Freedom?

 
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:01 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114564 wrote:
...I would advise you to check the meaning of "Suggestion"imprinting of a specific need is the key word here, but still, a very linear approach to the probable complex cause for your own, as you call it "choice"...


I am pretty sure I would not have wanted to go to that restaurant had it not been for my friend's suggestion. But I was not forced to want to go because he suggested it, and, therefore, unless you know something I don't know about why I wanted to go to the restaurant, I went to the restaurant because I wanted to go, and no one forced me to want to go. And, that's the way I see it. If I am not compelled to do something, and I want to do it, then I did it of my own free will.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:11 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114565 wrote:
I am pretty sure I would not have wanted to go to that restaurant had it not been for my friend's suggestion. But I was not forced to want to go because he suggested it, and, therefore, unless you know something I don't know about why I wanted to go to the restaurant, I went to the restaurant because I wanted to go, and no one forced me to want to go. And, that's the way I see it. If I am not compelled to do something, and I want to do it, then I did it of my own free will.


AgreeingAwareness is not freedom !
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:15 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114569 wrote:
Agreeing


What is "a free will based way". I thought that to do something of your own free will was not to be compelled to do it, so that you need not have done it, and could have done something else if you had want to do. What do you mean by it? And why do you think what you mean has anything to do with free will?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:25 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114570 wrote:
What is "a free will based way". I thought that to do something of your own free will was not to be compelled to do it, so that you need not have done it, and could have done something else if you had want to do. What do you mean by it? And why do you think what you mean has anything to do with free will?
"favourable" in order to your conscientious option to erupt...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:29 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114573 wrote:
"favourable" in order to your conscientious option to erupt...


Why do you think I was compelled? What, or who, compelled me? Remember, I wanted to go to that new restaurant. So, how can I be compelled to do what I wanted to do?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114575 wrote:
Why do you think I was compelled? What, or who, compelled me? Remember, I wanted to go to that new restaurant. So, how can I be compelled to do what I wanted to do?


The question is WHY did you want it ?
What caused that will of yours...
...from your perspective it arises from nothing...
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:34 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114576 wrote:
The question is WHY did you want it ?
What caused that will of yours...


I told you. My friend's suggestion. But what has that to do with it? Why does it matter why I wanted it? If I wanted it, and I did it because I wanted to do it, then why did I not do it of my own free will?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:47 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114580 wrote:
I told you. My friend's suggestion. But what has that to do with it? Why does it matter why I wanted it? If I wanted it, and I did it because I wanted to do it, then why did I not do it of my own free will?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:53 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114584 wrote:


No. So what if there is a cause of my wanting, as there is? I still did it because I wanted to do it. And, if I did it because I wanted to do it, then I was not forced to do it. And, if I was not forced to do it, then why do you think I did not do it of my own free will? (Would I have free will if I did it because I did not want to do it?) I don't get the reasoning. If I am forced to do it, then I don't have free will because I am forced to do it. But if I am not forced to do it, then I don't have free will anyway. What is this? Heads I win, tails you lose?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 01:57 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114587 wrote:
No. So what if there is a cause of my wanting, as there is? I still did it because I wanted to do it. And, if I did it because I wanted to do it, then I was not forced to do it. And, if I was not forced to do it, then why do you think I did not do it of my own free will? (Would I have free will if I did it because I did not want to do it?) I don't get the reasoning. If I am forced to do it, then I don't have free will because I am forced to do it. But if I am not forced to do it, then I don't have free will anyway. What is this? Heads I win, tails you lose?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 02:02 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114589 wrote:


Well, I don't play games which are set up so that I cannot win. Try setting one up so that I have a chance.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 02:06 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114591 wrote:
Well, I don't play games which are set up so that I cannot win. Try setting one up so that I have a chance.


...if only I was free to do that...but I was born, "thick as a brick", already...

( I agree...:bigsmile: As Antonio Salieri has said in a Mozart film, there is Mediocrity everywhere...actually he has himself considered to be the "patron saint of mediocrity.. and I, am no exception, unfortunately ! )
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 02:34 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
kennethamy;114546 wrote:
The issue, as I already put it, is whether human actions and choices cannot be both free and predictable. Why can it not be predicted, completely accurately, that a person will do something freely??


I understand your point I think.

This statement is true:
If something is determined then it is also predictable (by one of Laplace's Martians at least)

But the converse is not so certain:
If something is predictable then it is also determined.

But doesn't prediction imply a tracing of the causes that determine some future event?
Is there some other kind of prediction that does not involve tracing these causes? Divination perhaps? Tarot cards? Magic 8-ball? I want to believe there is but I can't think of one.

I want to believe that predictions involving probabilities somehow escape the causal chain of determinism but predictions involving probabilities are always at least partially guesses and not fully predictions.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 06:57 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;114596 wrote:


But doesn't prediction imply a tracing of the causes that determine some future event?
.


I don't know for certain. But that doesn't matter. Suppose it is true. What has that to do with free will? In fact, what has causation to do with free will, rather than the kind of causation? Causation is not inconsistent with human freedom, although certain kinds of causation are. For example, if your suggestion that I try a new restaurant causes me to try that new restaurant, that, in no way, shows I did not visit that restaurant of my own free will. But if you compel me to visit that new restaurant by threatening that I will lose my job if I do not, then, if your threat is credible, I was compelled to visit that restaurant, and I did not visit that restaurant of my own free will.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 08:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114617 wrote:
I don't know for certain. But that doesn't matter. Suppose it is true. What has that to do with free will? In fact, what has causation to do with free will, rather than the kind of causation? Causation is not inconsistent with human freedom, although certain kinds of causation are.


Is willing a kind of cause?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 08:18 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;114626 wrote:
Is willing a kind of cause?


It is, I suppose, a cause of action. So it is a kind of cause. But not the kind of cause that means that the action is not freely done.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 08:39 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114630 wrote:
It is, I suppose, a cause of action. So it is a kind of cause. But not the kind of cause that means that the action is not freely done.


If willing is a kind of cause of action then it is the kind of cause that allows for the possibility that that action can be freely done. This is precisely the kind of cause that the determinist of the Laplace variety refuses to recognize.

Is it that you want to set aside the free will vs. determinism metaphysical question and focus instead upon the freedom vs. coercion socio political question?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 08:46 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;114636 wrote:
If willing is a kind of cause of action then it is the kind of cause that allows for the possibility that that action can be freely done. This is precisely the kind of cause that the determinist of the Laplace variety refuses to recognize.

Is it that you want to set aside the free will vs. determinism metaphysical question and focus instead upon the freedom vs. coercion socio political question?


But what you call the issue of metaphysical freedom is a pseudo-issue which supposes that there is no difference between causation and compulsion. And that seems to me clearly false. If you suppose that all causation is compulsion, then, you simply set aside the issue of human freedom, and you can discuss only whether determinism is true or not.
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 09:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114637 wrote:
But what you call the issue of metaphysical freedom is a pseudo-issue which supposes that there is no difference between causation and compulsion. And that seems to me clearly false. If you suppose that all causation is compulsion, then, you simply set aside the issue of human freedom, and you can discuss only whether determinism is true or not.


I am interested in preserving the issue of human freedom as separate from determinism. How is compulsion different from causation? It cannot be false just because we want to preserve the issue of human freedom.

If compulsion is causation then human freedom is a non-issue but human freedom is an issue, therefore compulsion must be different from causation. That's no proof for human freedom.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 09:30 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;114642 wrote:
I am interested in preserving the issue of human freedom as separate from determinism. How is compulsion different from causation? It cannot be false just because we want to preserve the issue of human freedom.

If compulsion is causation then human freedom is a non-issue but human freedom is an issue, therefore compulsion must be different from causation. That's no proof for human freedom.


All compulsion is causation. But some causation is not compulsion. For example, my friend's suggestion that I visit the new restaurant cause me to visit the restaurant, but it did not compel me to do so.
For one thing, I wanted to go, and I cannot be compelled to do something if I want to do it. For another thing, I need not have visited the restaurant if I had wanted not to do so. And. of course, Earth is caused to go around the Sun. But Earth is not compelled to go around the Sun.

If compulsion is causation then human freedom is a non-issue but human freedom is an issue, therefore compulsion must be different from causation. That's no proof for human freedom.

You are right, since that there is human freedom is not the conclusion of that argument. But I did not argue that. Why would I?
 

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