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What is your Freedom?

 
 
Reply Fri 25 Dec, 2009 06:52 pm
(Done before but i shall refresh)

What is freedom?
What is your freedom?
What is your concept of freedom?

Describe your concepts of liberty and or as at freedom.
Is there as told or 'coerced' by Isaiah Berlin both a negative and positive of the notion of Liberty Freedom.
What does the sum come out as additional or subtractive in the end equals, this is where your personal concept and descript comes in.
Please tell of your under appreciation of the positive or the negative.

Help in answering;
'Why should I or anyone obey anyone else?
Why should I not live as I like?
Must I obey?
If I disobey, may I be coerced? BY whom, and to what degree, and in the name of what, and for the sake of what?'

What is your freedom and what is others imprisonment?
Must freedom be a gift rather than self possessed?

'What is the area within which the subject- a person or group of persons- is or should be left to do or be what he is able to do or be, without interference by another person?'

Is there more freedom to be had by the group together for than by the individual alone against?

'What or who, is the source of control or interference that can determine someone to do, or be this rather than that?'

However you do not need to give a Berlin-like answer when describing; What is your notion of freedom?
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Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 09:45 am
@sometime sun,
My Freedom is self control, and my happiness is the knowledge to make reasoned decisions...
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 11:51 am
@sometime sun,
In its most basic sense the notion of "freedom" (and for that matter creativity) is a rejection of "hard determinism".
It is the notion that there were alternative possiblities for the past and there are alternative possiblities in the future. Ordered possibilites is the fundamental inherent law of reality and nature, not precise specific predictability.
For humans it is the ability to have done or to do "otherwise".
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 01:14 pm
@prothero,
prothero;114432 wrote:
In its most basic sense the notion of "freedom" (and for that matter creativity) is a rejection of "hard determinism".
It is the notion that there were alternative possiblities for the past and there are alternative possiblities in the future. Ordered possibilites is the fundamental inherent law of reality and nature, not precise specific predictability.
For humans it is the ability to have done or to do "otherwise".



But then, the question is, what does it mean to have the ability fo do otherwise? (I don't know what you mean by "otherwise") I could have done otherwise seems to me to mean something like, "I could have done otherwise if I had chosen to do otherwise". And even if determinism is true (I don't know what you mean by "hard determinism") I sometimes could have done otherwise if I had chosen to do otherwise".
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 02:56 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114447 wrote:
But then, the question is, what does it mean to have the ability fo do otherwise? (I don't know what you mean by "otherwise") I could have done otherwise seems to me to mean something like, "I could have done otherwise if I had chosen to do otherwise". And even if determinism is true (I don't know what you mean by "hard determinism") I sometimes could have done otherwise if I had chosen to do otherwise".
By "hard determinism" I mean something approaching Laplaces demon. There is one and only one possible sequence of events. The laws of nature are not probablistic but are fixed and in theory all events could be precisely predicted given sufficient knowledge and computing power.
If there is no freedom in nature then it would seem human "free will" could be nothing but an "illusion". On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance (intended).
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 06:43 pm
@prothero,
prothero;114454 wrote:
By "hard determinism" I mean something approaching Laplaces demon. There is one and only one possible sequence of events. The laws of nature are not probablistic but are fixed and in theory all events could be precisely predicted given sufficient knowledge and computing power.
If there is no freedom in nature then it would seem human "free will" could be nothing but an "illusion". On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance (intended).


But if I actually did X, why could I not have done Y if I had chosen to do so? Suppose I purchased some vanilla ice-cream. Why could I not have purchased chocolate ice-cream if I had chosen to purchase chocolate ice-cream? What would have stopped me? (It might very well be true that since I am known to love vanilla, and hate chocolate, it could have been predicted that I would choose vanilla. But, so what? Why would that mean that I did not freely choose vanilla rather than chocolate?) .
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 08:02 pm
@sometime sun,
There is not one single hypothetical event in all of reality...Stop thinking you can have hypothetical freedom, or hypothetical justice, virtue, or morality...These qualities work out of who people are and not out of what they think...If you need Freedom in your life you will live for it...If it is what you need you will not deny it, not to yourself or to others...
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 08:07 pm
@kennethamy,
0 Replies
 
sometime sun
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 09:51 pm
@Fido,
Fido;114425 wrote:
My Freedom is self control, and my happiness is the knowledge to make reasoned decisions...


So your freedom is in part at least imprisonment, is restraint?
It is your 'self' that gives you your freedom?
If so is not the concept of self yet another definition, another destinction, another abreviation another capture of that which is closeted that which is confined that which is controled that subject (me/you) over disobedience? over what some might also call freedom to not be accountable?

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 04:14 AM ----------

prothero;114432 wrote:
In its most basic sense the notion of "freedom" (and for that matter creativity) is a rejection of "hard determinism".
It is the notion that there were alternative possiblities for the past and there are alternative possiblities in the future. Ordered possibilites is the fundamental inherent law of reality and nature, not precise specific predictability.
For humans it is the ability to have done or to do "otherwise".


I see what you mean (sort of) about freedom being a rejection of determinism at least, because it is something (in pure form, ideal) without need for a price cause to be paid effect.
For it to mean anything could mean it means nothing.
Because you have atached price to something that is 'supposed' to be free especially for all.

I think you are saying it is an ideal chioce without the choosing, we know better ourselves and the universe be seeing and believing and knowing not everything must be fought, and some things there shoul dbe no fight in the first or last place.

[You] 'Ordered possibilities is the fundamental inherent law of reality and nature, not precise specific predictability'
Please expand.

For humans it is as much availiability which is ability but can still be denied even granted.

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 04:21 AM ----------

kennethamy;114447 wrote:
But then, the question is, what does it mean to have the ability fo do otherwise?

It gives freedom substance it makes it worth something without necessarliy attaching cost.

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 04:28 AM ----------

prothero;114454 wrote:
By "hard determinism" I mean something approaching Laplaces demon. There is one and only one possible sequence of events. The laws of nature are not probablistic but are fixed and in theory all events could be precisely predicted given sufficient knowledge and computing power.
If there is no freedom in nature then it would seem human "free will" could be nothing but an "illusion". On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance (intended).

The chance precede the impossibility.
Only one chance though through nature?
Does not the predictability proove somethings have, are with, existence freedom over unexisted imprisonment? rather than all is deviod/defunct if without? which you did not say.
Unpredictable can be used the same way, that because it cannot be measured means it does not (as yet) exist? Or am i just filling air?

---------- Post added 12-27-2009 at 04:33 AM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;114524 wrote:


But are things exactly as they 'could' be, are we missing the point if we dont fight for it?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 11:29 pm
@sometime sun,
Quote:
But are things exactly as they 'could' be, are we missing the point if we dont fight for it?
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 11:31 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114510 wrote:
But if I actually did X, why could I not have done Y if I had chosen to do so? Suppose I purchased some vanilla ice-cream. Why could I not have purchased chocolate ice-cream if I had chosen to purchase chocolate ice-cream? What would have stopped me? (It might very well be true that since I am known to love vanilla, and hate chocolate, it could have been predicted that I would choose vanilla. But, so what? Why would that mean that I did not freely choose vanilla rather than chocolate?) .
It would not. That, however, is not the basic question being asked. The fact that I predicted the Lakers would win last nights basketball game and that they did win does not mean that it was determined that they would win or that there was no other possible outcome to the game. It is not about prediction. It is about whether other possiblities actually exist or whether there is only one possible outcome due to the laws of nature. A question you have yet to answer.

There is of course neither a logically necessary nor a scientific answer but ones intuition or philosophical speculation or metaphysical assumption about nature and determinism does and must affect ones position on free will or any freedom in nature.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 11:59 pm
@prothero,
prothero;114544 wrote:
It would not. That, however, is not the basic question being asked. The fact that I predicted the Lakers would win last nights basketball game and that they did win does not mean that it was determined that they would win or that there was no other possible outcome to the game. It is not about prediction. It is about whether other possiblities actually exist or whether there is only one possible outcome due to the laws of nature. A question you have yet to answer.

There is of course neither a logically necessary nor a scientific answer but ones intuition or philosophical speculation or metaphysical assumption about nature and determinism does and must affect ones position on free will or any freedom in nature.


But you did say it was about predictability. You wrote, On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance

Now nature is predictable, and Man is a part of nature. So I suppose that Man is predictable. But it makes no sense to talk about nature being free (or unfree) as you do, at least that I can understand. But it does, at least make sense to talk of Man as free (or unfree). So, I would conclude that unpredictability (even to a small degree) has nothing to do with whether Man is free. (In fact, according to the best information I have about subatomic physics, nature at the subatomic scale is unpredictable, but I don't see that that might have to do with human freedom). The issue, as I already put it, is whether human actions and choices cannot be both free and predictable. Why can it not be predicted, completely accurately, that a person will do something freely? That is, suppose it can be predicted, with complete accuracy, that I will choose vanilla. Why would that mean that I did not freely choose vanilla? Which is to say, I was not compelled in anyway to choose vanilla. I chose it of my own free will. The predictability of my choice seems to me to have nothing to do with whether that choice was free or not. That I would choose it does not imply that I had to choose it (that I could not have helped but choose it).
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:08 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114546 wrote:
But you did say it was about predictability. You wrote, On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance

Now nature is predictable, and Man is a part of nature. So I suppose that Man is predictable. But it makes no sense to talk about nature being free (or unfree) as you do, at least that I can understand. But it does, at least make sense to talk of Man as free (or unfree). So, I would conclude that unpredictability (even to a small degree) has nothing to do with whether Man is free. (In fact, according to the best information I have about subatomic physics, nature at the subatomic scale is unpredictable, but I don't see that that might have to do with human freedom). The issue, as I already put it, is whether human actions and choices cannot be both free and predictable. Why can it not be predicted, completely accurately, that a person will do something freely? That is, suppose it can be predicted, with complete accuracy, that I will choose vanilla. Why would that mean that I did not freely choose vanilla? Which is to say, I was not compelled in anyway to choose vanilla. I chose it of my own free will. The predictability of my choice seems to me to have nothing to do with whether that choice was free or not. That I would choose it does not imply that I had to choose it (that I could not have helped but choose it).


So, wanting something, in your own words, as nothing to do with "needing" something...elaborate, but not at all convincing !...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:16 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114548 wrote:
So, wanting something, in your own words, as nothing to do with "needing" something...elaborate, but not at all convincing !...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE


Where did I say that? (But, in fact, wanting something need have nothing to do with needing something, as just a cursory observation of children will show you). But since this question has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, I am not going to let this thread be derailed by it.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:25 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114550 wrote:
Where did I say that? (But, in fact, wanting something need have nothing to do with needing something, as just a cursory observation of children will show you).
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:28 am
@kennethamy,
[QUOTE=kennethamy;114546] But you did say it was about predictability. You wrote, On the other hand if nature is inherently unpredictable even to a small degree "free will" and "freedom" have a chance[/QUOTE]
kennethamy;114546 wrote:


Now nature is predictable, and Man is a part of nature. So I suppose that Man is predictable. But it makes no sense to talk about nature being free (or unfree) as you do, at least that I can understand. But it does, at least make sense to talk of Man as free (or unfree). So, I would conclude that unpredictability (even to a small degree) has nothing to do with whether Man is free. (In fact, according to the best information I have about subatomic physics, nature at the subatomic scale is unpredictable, but I don't see that that might have to do with human freedom).
Well whether the unpredictability involved in the quantum world has any implications for human action and "mind" is controversial. Even the implications of quantum events for hard determinism are still controversial. The original conceptions of matter, space and time in classical Newtonian physics is what originally gave way to the notion that nature was materialistic, mechanical and deterministic. It is now clear that those classical conceptions are "wrong". It may have a great deal to do with "human freedom" or "fluctuations of mind" or "subjective experience". It just remains to be seen but clearly ultimate reality (matter, energy, time, space, mind) is much different than what our limited experience of it from our senses implies. I can predict many things the question is can "all things" in theory be predicted. The answer would appear to be "no". The world only appears as it does to us because of the relatively uniform speeds, gravitational fields, and scale on which we experience it. The universe as it "really is" is strange and the possibility of meaningful "free will" does not appear to be too far of a stretch to assert at least as a philosophical speculation.

[QUOTE=kennethamy;114546] The issue, as I already put it, is whether human actions and choices cannot be both free and predictable. Why can it not be predicted, completely accurately, that a person will do something freely? That is, suppose it can be predicted, with complete accuracy, that I will choose vanilla. Why would that mean that I did not freely choose vanilla? Which is to say, I was not compelled in anyway to choose vanilla. I chose it of my own free will. The predictability of my choice seems to me to have nothing to do with whether that choice was free or not. That I would choose it does not imply that I had to choose it (that I could not have helped but choose it). [/QUOTE] I would say that holding human action is both perfectly predictable even in theory (without error and without alternatives) thus perfectly determined in the "hard" sense
and
that human freedom is still "real" or meaningful except as an "illusion"
Requires a perversion of the meaning of "human freedom" as it is commonly perceived and understood.

The common understanding is better reflected in the proffered "the ability to do or to have done otherwise."
One can become a compatibilist by sufficiently redefining or twisting the meaning of terms but the notion of "free will" or "human freedom" involved is not that which is being sought by non compatibilists or libertarian free will advocates.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:30 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114551 wrote:


No, of course I did not say that. Nor do I believe that. My wanting something has causes just as I think every other event has (except micro-events). For example, I may want to try a new restaurant because a friend has recommended it to me. But that does not mean I did not want to try the new restaurant of my own free will. Why should it?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:43 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114554 wrote:
No, of course I did not say that. Nor do I believe that. My wanting something has causes just as I think every other event has (except micro-events). For example, I may want to try a new restaurant because a friend has recommended it to me. But that does not mean I did not want to try the new restaurant of my own free will. Why should it?


Your wanting is based, as I see it, in many (googleplex) micro events...events that are not linear causal, but complex causal...we can for instance speak in a "state of mind", or further, in an entangled state of reality
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:47 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;114559 wrote:
Your wanting is based, as I see it, in many (googleplex) micro events...events that are not linear causal, but complex causal...we can for instance speak in a "state of mind" or further, in an entangled state of reality


Well, that may be how you see it. But there is no reason to think you are right. And there is every reason to think that I wanted to visit that restaurant because my friend suggested that I do so. So, there we are. When you provide an argument for your view (and not just tell me that is the "way you see it") I'll be more likely to listen to you.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 12:55 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;114562 wrote:
Well, that may be how you see it. But there is no reason to think you are right. And there is every reason to think that I wanted to visit that restaurant because my friend suggested that I do so. So, there we are. When you provide an argument for your view (and not just tell me that is the "way you see it") I'll be more likely to listen to you.


...I would advise you to check the meaning of "Suggestion"imprinting of a specific need is the key word here, but still, a very linear approach to the probable complex cause for your own, as you call it "choice"...
 

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