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If you were a bookie... Polls and bets on the 2004 elections

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 12:20 pm
Quote:
I'm quite willing to put some serious money on the outcome of the election if either of you guys is willing to bet.


Pah! Mere dollars. Let's wager our children.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 12:23 pm
Pah! Mere children. Let's wager our mothers.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:00 pm
Pah! mere mothers. let's wager our country...
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:20 pm
Screw the country. Lets do dollars.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:28 pm
Whatever happened to playing for kitchen matches?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:28 pm
We burned that idea up.

Cycloptichorn
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:32 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Screw the country. Lets do dollars.



bushco. has already done the first, so we don't have the second.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 01:36 pm
lets all play Bush and bet our grand childrens dollars.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 02:07 pm
Great riff !! This, evidently, is Dyslexia's specialty. Only Cyclo stooped to wordplay, but even that was good.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 02:27 pm
<ahem>

Sorry to intrude ... Very Happy

Fox News poll, likely voters, 3-4 October, compared to Sept 21-22:

2-way race:
Bush 48% (+3)
Kerry 45% (+2)


3-way race:
Bush 47% (+1)
Kerry 45% (+3)
Nader 1% (no ch.)

The candidates are fast slicing up the share of undecideds ...
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 02:32 pm
Nimh et al.,

What polls would you recommend I look at for individual issues (especially domestic issues)?

It seems as if I heard on Fox the other day that Kerry leads Bush in economic and social issues, and seeing as those are the debates coming up, I wanted to check on that if possible.

Thanks in advance

Cycloptichorn
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 02:44 pm
You are always welcome with news like that Nimh. If the poll is accurate it implies that the undecided voters are gradually making up their minds and that roughly 3 out of 5 of them are choosing Bush.

OK. I'll bet the kids!
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 02:47 pm
How do you get that, George? Seeing as Kerry's numbers have pretty much risen across the board since the last debate, and there are two more to go, if Bush continues to give the debates to Kerry......

You may want to hold off on betting the kids.

Cycloptichorn
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 03:16 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
You are always welcome with news like that Nimh. If the poll is accurate it implies that the undecided voters are gradually making up their minds and that roughly 3 out of 5 of them are choosing Bush.

OK. I'll bet the kids!

Heh - unless you look at the 3-way race, in which case it seems that the undecided voters are gradually making up their minds and that roughly 3 out of 4 of them are choosing Kerry ;-).

Seriously - 3 out of 5, 3 out of 4, that's nonsense of course - numbers are so close, just the rounding off can make those proportions turn around. E.g., last time Bush had 45% in the two-way and 46% in Fox's three-way, now he's got 48% in the two-way and 47% in the three-way. But one thing does seem clear: the move in the current polls seems to be mostly made of undecideds making up their minds. And though in most post-debate polls they have gone in majority to Kerry, he won't actually win the race if he doesn't manage to peel off some of the people who now intend to vote Bush.

The debate basically did a fair job in hauling in waverers to Kerry's side, but it didn't do much in terms of making people leave Bush. The CBS/NYT poll is emblematic of this trend: in the horserace, it had Kerry up 6% to 47% - and Bush down just the 1% to 48%.

Bush's approval rates underline this. Kerry's favourables may have truly bounced after the debate, but Bush's actually crept up in most polls too. Concerning job approval, the Fox, ABC/WaPo and Zogby polls showed improvement for him in the margin between approval and disapproval, CBS/NYT showed no change and only Newsweek and Gallup showed him losing ground.

A TNR article today makes much of the same point and argues that it means Edwards will really need to play attack dog tonight:

Quote:
Edwards may still be tempted to assume, as Lieberman did in 2000, that his job is to maintain or shore up his ticket's popularity with voters. The polls, however, show a very different imperative. Kerry's victory last Thursday succeeded in improving his image. An ABC News/Washington Post poll shows the debate boosted the senator's favorability rating to 47 percent of registered voters, up from 37 percent just before the contest. The clash with Bush helped undo much of the damage inflicted by the GOP's unrelenting flip-flopper attacks, and narrowed the head-to-head race to a tie.

But Kerry's victory did not produce the kind of change Democrats need to see in Bush's numbers. The ABC/Post poll showed a slight uptick in the president's unfavorability rating, but his favorability rating edged up as well. Most analysts agree that for challengers, driving up an incumbent's negatives is more important than boosting your own favorability ratings. That's because voters view elections as referenda on the incumbents, not the challengers. So the best way for Kerry to ensure that undecided voters break in his direction on Election Day is to make sure the president's unfavorable numbers keep going up.

Edwards's assignment tonight should therefore be to hit Bush (and Cheney) as hard as he can.

It's in his own political interest, too, the article adds:

Quote:
If he is watching the conventional wisdom closely, Edwards should already see signs of the backlash against him that is likely to emerge if Kerry loses. While his campaign swings through small towns may help in a close election, Edwards's low visibility has sparked grousing in the press. And despite his occasionally tough rhetoric, Edwards has not escaped pundits' musings about whether he is enough of an "attack dog" for Kerry. "He needs to put a little Tabasco in his message," Donna Brazile told The New York Times. Or as Slate's Chris Suellentrop put it, "Mr. Positive needs to prove that he can go negative." For his own sake, Edwards needs to balance the public's perception of him. An aggressive yet reasoned attack on Cheney will win Edwards support from the Democratic base and nods of approval from pundits; and if Bush wins a second term, Edwards will not be seen as the man who was too nice to stop him.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 03:54 pm
It's off-topic but liberals of A2K y'all be warned now ... beware the onslaught:

Quote:
[Bush] Campaign manager Ken Mehlman e-mails supporters: "The debate tonight presents a tremendous opportunity for the campaign to attract undecided voters, but people's perceptions are shaped as much by their conversations around the water cooler as by the debates themselves." Mehlman asks supporters to visit the Bush campaign website "tonight during the debate so you will have the facts. Print and share them with your friends. Immediately after the debate, visit online polls, chat rooms, and discussion boards and make your voice heard." He also asks them to visit network news websites and vote in Internet polls, call talk radio, write letters to the editor, and visit chat rooms.
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DontTreadOnMe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 06:03 pm
thanks nimh. i think we've gotten used to it. but. i'm sure there will be another fresh crop of newbies ( even newer than me ) taking advantage of their right to free speech. (and spin... lol !! )

interesting aside. i just chatted with an old friend who is a civil war scholar. she put forward that the "dirty " elections that we think are so new are not new at all. then tossed out a few examples. if there's any interest, i'll ask her to put together a few for our general consumption. she's pretty good with later elections as well.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 06:24 pm
thatd be interesting!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 07:06 pm
Just for interest, going into tonight's Veep Debate, here's a benchmark, which, IMHO, shows Kerry gained little if anything from the 1st debate:

Wa Post/ABC: Bush 51, Kerry 46 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

ARG: Bush 46, Kerry 47 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

SHU Polling Institute: Bush 48.4, Kerry 43.4 Also, " ... 69.9% believe President Bush will be re- elected, while 21.6% believe Senator Kerry will win ... " (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Fox News/Opinion Dynamics: Bush 48, Kerry 43 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Rasmussen: Bush 48, Kerry 47 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Pew Research: Bush 48, Kerry 41 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Zogby: Bush 46, Kerry 45 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

CBS/NYT: Bush 47, Kerry 47 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate) (edit: added to make nimh happy) :wink: )

CNN/USAToday/Gallup: Bush 49. Kerry 49 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate) (edit: added to make nimh happy) :wink: )

MSNBC/Newsweek: Bush 45, Kerry 47 (Sample was substantially Post 1st Presidential Debate) (edit: added to make nimh happy) :wink: )

Tarrance/Battleground: Bush 47, Kerry 39 (Sample was substantially Pre 1st Presidential Debate)

RCP Average: Bush 47.5, Kerry 45.8

Electoral-Vote.Com Current Projection: Bush 321, Kerry 200

Rasmussen Current Electoral College Projection: Bush 213, Kerry 169

EletionProjection.com: Electoral Vote - Bush 295, Kerry 243/Pop Vote - Bush 50.2, Kerry 48.0

FR Composite: Electoral Vote - Bush 295, Kerry 243/ Pop Vote Bush 51.1, Kerry 47.4

Dales ECB 2004: Bush 259, Kerry 169 - With Tossups, Bush 295, Kerry 207

Race2004.Net Electoral College Projection: Bush 258, Kerry 175

IEM WTA Composite: Bush 58.7, Kerry 43.1

IEM Vote Share: Bush .514, Kerry .488

Tradesports: Bush 61.5, Kerry 41.1


EDIT (Timber): Just to make nimh happy Laughing
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 07:12 pm
timberlandko wrote:
here's a benchmark, which, IMHO, shows Kerry gained little if anything from the 1st debate:

Wa Post/ABC: Bush 51, Kerry 46 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

ARG: Bush 46, Kerry 47 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Fox News/Opimion Dynamics: Bush 48, Kerry 43 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Rasmussen: Bush 48, Kerry 47 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Pew Research: Bush 48, Kerry 41 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)

Zogby: Bush 46, Kerry 45 (Sample was entirely Post 1st Presidential Debate)


Funny, Timber, why you include every poll that did not show great movement - and none of the polls that did? (Newsweek, Gallup, CBS/NYT ...)

What kind of "benchmarking" is that?

Can't do no proper benchmarking if you're not willing to see (or show) more than one side of the story exclusively ... that's the difference between research and spin.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Oct, 2004 07:53 pm
There ... are ya happy now? LOL ...


Actually, weak excuse, but real; I'd meant to include Newsweek, CNN/Gallup, and CBS/NYT ... after workin' up the list, chasin and checkin' the links, I neglected to add 'em in to the final-edit Notepad copy before I cut-'n-pasted it in. Goin' back into the post and correcting it was no bother at all ... thanks for catchin' that.
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