1
   

A consequence of capitalism?

 
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 08:41 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
"Resources are in ever greater abundance?" On what planet? Non-renewables are finite and through usage diminish in abundance. Renewables are being depleted faster than Earth can replenish them. Witness the collapse of global fisheries and the freshwater crisis that's rapidly overtaking some parts of the world.

Sorry, E.N., but while you're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to invent your own facts.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 09:50 pm
@xris,
RDRDRD1;131079 wrote:
A bit off topic but I find it amazing how quick we are to catagorize Obama as African-American. Yes he had an African father but his mother was a white American and he was raised in a thoroughly white household by his grandparents. The only thing that renders him particularly African-American is skin colour but you could easily make the case that he's far more white-American than black.


yeah..... but i was careful a para before, and had in fact used the 'mixed origin' construct.

EmperorNero;131107 wrote:
Do you know what lead to the obesity epidemic in the US? Certainly it's to a degree geography and culture. But for the first 180 years of it's existence, citizens of the American republic were malnourished. In the 40'es activists proposed government programs to relieve that, such as school lunch programs. In the 60 years since we had an obesity epidemic.
It was a government intervention, propelled by social activism, that caused this. Not the free market or capitalism.
It's like that on every issue. All faults can in some way be explained by abandoning capitalism.


If the 'obesity epidemic' is because of a 'school lunch programs' than thats a nice twist you are giving to logic. There may not be any causal link between those programs. Your are deliberately not seeing the truth of the matter just like those obese women who claimed and defended their size by saying that 'fat is beautiful'. Such self deception does not help in the long run.

When you say categorically that it was 'government intervention, propelled by social activism, that caused this...and not the free market or capitalism', it is a poignant moment for philosophy, i suppose.

It is just like the excuse that pro-Stalinists gave to defend the killings of thousands who protested to the kind and in the name of nationalism he propogated.

Similarly, a politically minded farmer will blame the government for lack of rainfall or a torrential rain which may have dried up or may have deluged his crop-field. Strange are the reasonings.

EmperorNero;131135 wrote:
Capitalism - economic liberalism - is in decline? It is on it's march forward all around the world!
And it was a disaster? It brought the greatest freedom, material prosperity and environmental improvements to the greatest number of people in history.
Resources are in ever greater abundance.
It seems much more like the last remnants of collectivism are kicking and screaming, and mounting their last desperate indoctrination campaigns, on their way out.


I get a sense of an accusation here. But let me say that I have no grudge against capitalism. I am a kind of a capitalist myself, my father is a businessman, and i am too into business. And, to be more clear i am not proposing 'collectivism' either. Communism and Capitalism both are the accused. It is high time for a serious review of things.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 09:51 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;131270 wrote:
Non-renewables are finite and through usage diminish in abundance.


Resources are not finite in any meaningful way. When we hit scarcity, we make more. That's what has driven progress in all of human history.
Scenarios that predict "x is going to run out in <insert date in the near future>" are usually wrong. They just keep coming with a changed date every time they are proven wrong. This thinking has been around since Malthus, 1798.
Fact is, according to actual availability of resources, we have resources in ever greater abundance.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 04:18 am
@EmperorNero,
We will make resources...that's your best yet..:bigsmile:
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 07:36 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;131280 wrote:
Resources are not finite in any meaningful way. When we hit scarcity, we make more.


Come on now...:perplexed:
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 07:44 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;131368 wrote:
Come on now...:perplexed:


But, when (if) we run out of oil, we will have other sources of energy. Or, technology will (and has) discovered others ways of making oil (from shale for instance). So, what is "come on now" about it?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 09:11 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;131369 wrote:
But, when (if) we run out of oil, we will have other sources of energy. Or, technology will (and has) discovered others ways of making oil (from shale for instance). So, what is "come on now" about it?
So copper, iron, tin , water..and you can make how many barrels of oil a day from shale? Be serious.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 09:17 am
@xris,
xris;131383 wrote:
So copper, iron, tin , water..and you can make how many barrels of oil a day from shale? Be serious.



Many, apparently. In any case, as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. And I am very serious. What makes you think technology won't keep up?
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 09:48 am
@kennethamy,
xris;131358 wrote:
We will make resources...that's your best yet..:bigsmile:


josh0335;131368 wrote:
Come on now...:perplexed:


When mankind used up the seeds he could find on the ground, he had to make them. That is called the agricultural revolution. And was no doubt one of the most important developments in history. Would you have preferred that they had not run out of seeds? We would have remained hunter-gatherers, with no worry of running out of seeds, but with below 10% chance of surviving childhood and with a life expectancy of 25.

It is amazing to me how an idea can be continuously be proven wrong for over 200 years, but still persist in ever new iterations.
Technical forecasts, those are the ones that take known reserves of resources and extrapolate when they will run out, have been wrong over and over again.
It's very simple why they are often wrong:
a) Resources are sought and found only as they are needed. So we don't know how much we have.
b) More efficient methods and alternatives are only found as they are needed. So we don't know how much we need.
So we neither know how much we have or how much we are going to need, that makes technical forecasts so inaccurate. And both are biases towards crisis, which is why actuality always turns out less dour than those predictions.

Those scenarios don't take into account that things change. They think we have to run tomorrows society with todays technology. But we don't, we will have tomorrows technology. Just as we didn't have to run todays society with yesterdays technology, and the forecasts that predicted us starving today were wrong. Just as the forecasts two hundred years ago that predicted people a hundred years ago to run out of stuff were wrong. These forecasts are so often wrong because they expect future societal complexity to function with present capacities. Their solution: Reduce future societal complexity to what they can function with present capacities. Duh.


That technically the resources you can find in the ground are "finite" is is not even correct in any meaningful sense. Contemplate that in a technical sense, with the exception of resources we burn up or shoot into space, we don't ever have less of them on earth. Technically they may be finite, but technically we can also never "run out" of them since technically their amount remains the same. So this technical assessment is obviously flawed. In fact it's quite irrelevant to you how much stuff there is in the earths crust. What matters to you is that you can buy it. How much there is in the ground only matters because that has an effect on availability in the market. So looking at reserves in the ground is really an unnecessary filter which distorts the picture. When you want to know how easy it will be to get resources in the future, how about looking at the trends of how easy it is to get resources. The trends are unmistakable: we have an ever greater abundance of resources. We are not running out of anything, ever.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 09:56 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Oh I think we indeed have vast, untapped supplies of energy. It's believed that tidal energy, if we learn to harness it, could provide all of our needs. Fossil fuels are different. They're non-renewable (unless you learn to live many millions of years), and they're inherently toxic.

Mineral resources are indeed finite. To date we've been able to match demand with production but, as the emerging economies ramp up, it's by no means clear that will continue. BTW, if you want an example of this, look at the world phosphate supply. No phosphates, no food, at least not on the scale needed by industrial agriculture to feed our overstuffed planet.

It's the renewable resources that are of greatest concern. Since the advent of the Green Revolution we've been pumping groundwater like a firetruck emptying a swimming pool. Some of those aquifers are prehistoric. These no longer recharge. Most do recharge but we're emtpying them at rates many fold the rate that nature refills or recharges them.

Likewise, precipitation patterns are already changing. Any farmer will tell you the key to production is to get just the right amount of rainfall at the right times it is required. Too little and you may not be able to get a crop in at all or it may be stunted or simply die in the fields. Too much and the crop may rot in the fields or you may not be able to get machinery into the fields to harvest.

The American south is feeling the brunt of extended droughts. So is Australia and parts of Asia and Africa. What these regions also experience are floods. Rainfall so concentrated, so intense that it delivers only harm, not good. Whether your livestock die from thirst or die from flash floods doesn't make a lot of difference.

"Necessity is the mother of invention?" Why then, after all these years and with mega-billions at stake, has no one actually developed "clean coal" or viable carbon sequestration technology? Expecting technological salvation to all our problems is truly whistling past the graveyard.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:02 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;131392 wrote:
"Necessity is the mother of invention?" Why then, after all these years and with mega-billions at stake, has no one actually developed "clean coal" or viable carbon sequestration technology? Expecting technological salvation to all our problems is truly whistling past the graveyard.


Because it's not worth it. Governments and activists have kept the price of gas artificially low with their "saving" interventions.

We're not running out of anything. We don't need communism to save us.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:21 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;131392 wrote:
Oh I think we indeed have vast, untapped supplies of energy. It's believed that tidal energy, if we learn to harness it, could provide all of our needs. Fossil fuels are different. They're non-renewable (unless you learn to live many millions of years), and they're inherently toxic.

Mineral resources are indeed finite. To date we've been able to match demand with production but, as the emerging economies ramp up, it's by no means clear that will continue. BTW, if you want an example of this, look at the world phosphate supply. No phosphates, no food, at least not on the scale needed by industrial agriculture to feed our overstuffed planet.

It's the renewable resources that are of greatest concern. Since the advent of the Green Revolution we've been pumping groundwater like a firetruck emptying a swimming pool. Some of those aquifers are prehistoric. These no longer recharge. Most do recharge but we're emtpying them at rates many fold the rate that nature refills or recharges them.

Likewise, precipitation patterns are already changing. Any farmer will tell you the key to production is to get just the right amount of rainfall at the right times it is required. Too little and you may not be able to get a crop in at all or it may be stunted or simply die in the fields. Too much and the crop may rot in the fields or you may not be able to get machinery into the fields to harvest.

The American south is feeling the brunt of extended droughts. So is Australia and parts of Asia and Africa. What these regions also experience are floods. Rainfall so concentrated, so intense that it delivers only harm, not good. Whether your livestock die from thirst or die from flash floods doesn't make a lot of difference.

"Necessity is the mother of invention?" Why then, after all these years and with mega-billions at stake, has no one actually developed "clean coal" or viable carbon sequestration technology? Expecting technological salvation to all our problems is truly whistling past the graveyard.


I suppose one answer is that developing clean in ways and amounts that will make it economically feasible to supply our energy needs has not been developed. Of course, we already know how to make clean coal. Just not economically feasible clean coal.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;131385 wrote:
Many, apparently. In any case, as they say, necessity is the mother of invention. And I am very serious. What makes you think technology won't keep up?
Have you looked at the difficulty in obtaining oil from shale. I hope its true, the sw of England has one of biggest supplies of it europe if not the world. It has been looked at but it would cost more to extract than what its worth. If we dont consider our future needs now, it will be too late when it actually runs out. Everything has a finite supply and it aint that far away.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:46 am
@xris,
xris;131406 wrote:
Have you looked at the difficulty in obtaining oil from shale. I hope its true, the sw of England has one of biggest supplies of it europe if not the world. It has been looked at but it would cost more to extract than what its worth. If we dont consider our future needs now, it will be too late when it actually runs out. Everything has a finite supply and it aint that far away.


We are considering now. There are many councils around the world holding meetings about new, cheaper energy sources. In fact, I was just reading an article about one of the most recent gatherings. If I find the article, I'll post it.
0 Replies
 
Deckard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 11:06 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;130867 wrote:

My guess is that we're about to see democracy clash with capitalism.

Democracy has been clashing with capitalism for quite a long time now.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 11:13 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Shale cracking has been found to lead to groundwater contamination. Then again the vaunted Athabasca Tar Sands of Alberta have also created a groundwater contamination danger believed responsible for the recent elevated rates of cancer in the local native populations. This is where private interests and public clash headlong into each other, a growing problem in the resource sector.

However it is freshwater that is the critical resource dilemma, not energy. This is not only a finite resource but its renewal cycle and delivery mechanisms are natural, not manmade. Without adequate supplies of freshwater, where and as needed, there is no agriculture, there is no industry, no matter how vast your reserves of fertilizers and mineral ores.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 11:36 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;131051 wrote:
I was quite pleased when Angela Merkel's climate advisory board, the WBGU, presented a climate change policy position based on the "commons" principle. The Germans concluded the only way to solve the climate dilemma was through a budgeting approach. This entailed calculating the remaining safe carbon capacity of the atmosphere and allocating that among nations on a strictly per capita basis.


Do you ever wonder why the global warming priests call for "doing something", yet never say what that something is going to accomplish? By their own numbers we would have to emit zero carbon for 30 years to mitigate one degree of warming.
None of these commoditization schemes can do anything about warming, they just make the priests rich.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 11:52 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
It seems to me that there are two kind of arguments.

One that argues that Capitalism is the best bet, the dirty things like effluents and pollution the end products of the assembly line can be or could be taken care by virtue of the human mind and spirit.

The other, although not represented in this thread yet, argues that capitalism should shut shop, and bring in a lot of government control that would save the world from an impending environmental disastor.

Both the view points have its merits, and disadvantages also. It appears that humanity is trying to find its soul. On one side we are trying to fight population growth on the assumption that resources will eventually run-out, and on the other hand we have reposed faith on technological advancement and development which will make individuals live more by promising higher and higher standard of living.

In the practical sense, it is double battle, so to speak. We are not clear of what exactly we want. Either we want better and better life, like for example from a one room apartment to double storeyed row house, from 70 as the average age to 100 as an average age, from cars to owning our own helicopters. In the 17th an d18th century 99 percent of the world population was surviving on 2 meals a day, 19th and 20th century saw, 50 percent enjoying 3 meals a day., today thanks to democarcies we have around 80 per cent having 3 meals a day.

The race to compete man to man, corporate to corporate, nation to nation has brought us to this dire situation where we are today discussing about alternate forms of energy. And for what. It is not to see that 100 percent of the world population will have a proper 3 meals a day, but to enhance my production and thereby my profits in the name of satisfying the consumer needs of vanity and extravagance.

The strategy is to use cheap labour, cheap raw materials, control of technology, and flood the market with stuffs which are not required for everyday living. A saturation has come about in America on car sales. The 50s upto the 90s the American car industry made hay while sun shined brightly over those energy guzzling sedans and chevorelets. The American dream was driven by the fantastic looking beauties on wheels. It assembly line dished out 100 cars an hour, more or less. Today it has gone bust through out the year.

Lets us find out the reason why it happened. The cheap rate at which gas (petrol) is available in America cannot offset the factor of consumer awareness about the utility of cheap cars running on cheap gas. It is during these days when America began to emit 30 percent of the worlds polluted gasses into the Earth atmosphere.

Today, not only the consumer is aware but factors like emission control norms, cheap labour and better production techniques in South Korea, China and Japan has beat the American car manufacturers in their own game. The marketing propoganda was sustained a couple or more decades but eventually the market had to saturate inspite of relying on generous influx of emigrants and paying good wages so that teh great American dream can be lived with those extra shining sleek cars.

So, also the idea that technology can eventually master any human crises. To take control of the limited resources, technology will be used to obliterate or exterminate an entire neighbourhood. Relying on technology creates the horrors like in Nagasaki, Chernobyl, Bhopal, WTC - Newyork, Iraq (remember the shock and awe bombardment). Technology may help us produce sufficient food stocks, but can it prevent wars.

The human element is the worrying element. Without curbing the wants which have turned luxurious today, without the spirit of cooperation instead competition, without the spirit of compassion and aesthetics, the future of human community is very grim.

To prevent the horrific incidents like European holocaust, Rwanda massacres, Chechyans operation, it is but necessary to give an hard look at basic governance issues like democracies, justice, and poverty reduction.

If we need a better world, i believe the three basic issues needs to be addressed. For this to succeed, the world needs to find a viable economic model with the good points of governance within capitalism and the good points of equitable distribution within socialism. I hope and believe that it is not as hard to coopt both the strong points in a single economic system.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:45 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades;131451 wrote:

One that argues that Capitalism is the best bet, the dirty things like effluents and pollution the end products of the assembly line can be or could be taken care by virtue of the human mind and spirit.

The other, although not represented in this thread yet, argues that capitalism should shut shop, and bring in a lot of government control that would save the world from an impending environmental disastor.


You make it sound as if capitalism is the thing doing the polluting as if non-capitalists don't pollute. This seems a little silly. You have the same businesses either way, so in reality non-capitalists pollute just as much as capitalists.

I think the underline problem is not so much pollution or running out of resources, but instead certain governmental policies strangle alternative sources of resources and also impose restrictions on competing businesses so you get low grade production with the highest pollution. Let the free market solve itself. You don't need to change an economic system to circumvent pollution or preventing depleted resources.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 02:04 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;131500 wrote:
You make it sound as if capitalism is the thing doing the polluting as if non-capitalists don't pollute. This seems a little silly. You have the same businesses either way, so in reality non-capitalists pollute just as much as capitalists.

I think the underline problem is not so much pollution or running out of resources, but instead certain governmental policies strangle alternative sources of resources and also impose restrictions on competing businesses so you get low grade production with the highest pollution. Let the free market solve itself. You don't need to change an economic system to circumvent pollution or preventing depleted resources.
The problem lies in the fact that capitalism will not accept that this constant desire for growth, is the major cause of our woes. I have and am involved in business and do understand the reason why we must strive to maintain our income. But we all need to realise we are living on borrowed time and we need to act for the worlds benefit.
 

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