1
   

A consequence of capitalism?

 
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 01:04 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Hi bsfree

You need to be thanked for bringing back philosophy into this thread. And most of what you have articulated i woul dtend to agree with you.

Yes, as you said, the economics and politics of man does make most of us or leave us opinionated. we take up positions that suits us the most and according to our perceptions, and also with perceptions created by a propaganda of whose existence we are not aware off.

Thanks, once again.
0 Replies
 
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:25 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
True capitalism is the use of ones assets to their highest and best purpose.
To regard the highest and best purpose of humanity as an asset to buy and sell the means of life to each other, without true benefit to the whole of humanity, is to capitalize on the many to the benefit of the few. No philosophy advocates such extreme measures as the means to understanding a workable way of life, and yet it appears to be the philosophy adopted by the masses, and those we elect to power, simply because of is ease of execution in a "civilized" manner, as, if any human or Earthly obstacle presents itself, there is a relatively easy remedy to be found in writing amendments or new laws to overcome objections, under the guise of democratic process.
To use the assets of Earth to accomplish and perpetrate this form of capitalism, and the philosophy that drives it, is, in my view, a form of cannibalism that I cannot abhor.
What is one to do when ones personal philosophy is at such odds with that held by the populous? Well, it could range from anarchy to joining the "party." But if one wanted to practice a benevolent philosophy in the "real" world, they would first have to accept a certain amount of compromise to their ideals. After all, it's not really "their" party is it?
So, before one could leave the party one no longer wanted to attend, one would need to participate to some degree in order to gain sufficient "supplies" to launch the degree of autonomy they desire.
I feel that any sustainable philosophy must have the economics of its foundation at its heart, and so, how does one go about living in the realm of their own philosophy? When our societies are like big unions that seemed like a good idea at the time, but, when you wanted out, found it daunting to contemplate survival with out them.
Is it possible to live according to how one feels, without ostracizing oneself from mainstream survival? I suppose one could have ones cake and eat it by keeping ones philosophy to oneself, and continue to make the rent.
Anyone have any ideas on a philosophy to best capitalize on making life work for you, other than buying it through each other?
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 06:43 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Friends

Here is my original post once again.
Quote:


Is this a consequence of capitalism?

Is 'creation of wealth, and more wealth'..... any good to the world at large. Is greed a good attribute for becoming rich, and more rich?

We also hear about US govts move to educate children on the ills of obesity. Is american citizens and other capitalist society and their clones or their ilk falling prey to their own habits.

Where are we heading for?........ Kindly place your views.


I am afraid that these questions remains unanswered.

The purpose was to let us ponder on the causal links between obesity, TV watching, leisure activities, eating pomme frittes (whatever that means) and internet usage with the economic system the people in those country follow. i suppose there are lesson to be learnt.

If all the world population including those who are economically prospering in the communist regimes also becomes habituated to such lifetsyles, is it going to harm the human race. Where would this lead us to?
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 08:39 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
If everyone lived the American lifestyle it wouldn't work.

America is 5% of the population that uses 25% of it's resources, or so I've heard, but I do know we aren't exactly frugal.

If there were no third world countries anymore, where would we get cheap oil, where would we have sweat shops, wars, etc? Someone has to get screwed to make the profit the USA rides in on, doesn't it?
0 Replies
 
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 10:58 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
I've already hung my head in shame Jack for wandering from the points of your wonderments, and using them to promote my own. I'll try to stick more closely to the theme of your thoughts.

Is this a consequence of capitalism?

Is 'creation of wealth, and more wealth'..... any good to the world at large. Is greed a good attribute for becoming rich, and more rich?


Well, wealth is created from the use of tactile and intellectual knowledge, and has produced the technologies we employ to harvest our means of survival and communication. In that sense it has been good for the world at large because it has provided a "common" platform of survival for humanity.

Greed is a wonderful attribute for becoming rich, and, as riches endow economic power, it also provides for a way to ensure that access to the "common" platform is controlled and determined by humanity homogeneously applying the methods used in the creation of the platform, thereby propagating its support.

We also hear about US govts move to educate children on the ills of obesity. Is american citizens and other capitalist society and their clones or their ilk falling prey to their own habits.


As we reap what we sow it follows that yes, we are prone to falling prey to our own habits. (All kids, obese or not, should get out and play more.)

Where are we heading for?........ Kindly place your views.


Well, based on the preceding observations, the supports of the platform (the masses) have become pretty shaky of late, and have necessitated government interventions worldwide in an effort to shore up the supports, by replacing the monetary assets that had evaporated in the heat of greed.
Funny thing is no actual assistance is brought to the supports of the platform, the belief seems to be that shoring up the platform itself will somehow enable it to "float" without need of those pesky masses to support it.

Hoping I've stuck to the points a bit better this time.
0 Replies
 
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 08:15 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Just struck me, we're not just selling to each other; we're actually selling to ourselves! I mean, the general philosophy of the average consumer is to enhance their lifestyle to the greatest degree possible, within the realm of their existence.
This philosophy is not difficult to cultivate; just keep images of the "good life" in view of the masses, the mind will follow.
Once this economic engine's running it's difficult to stop because every component depends of the continued financial lubrication of every one of its parts. This kind of economic engine requires running 24/7 to operate at peak efficiency, any interruption to its financial lubrication causes a loss of pressure in its control systems that could disrupt its speed of growth.
This kind of economic engine is expensive to run, not because of the cost of the "fuel," it can run on anything that can be traded, the problem is the amount of fuel it consumes in order to grow, for it must grow in order to continue running.
In my view this vicious cycle of running the same race over and over is redundant and needs to be abolished from populous philosophy.
I think capitalism is the only way to go to solve this philosophically driven economic problem we all share. I think we should really practice being capitalistic with ourselves by withdrawing as much fuel as we can from the engine and using it for ourselves.
I think the first siphoning should be in the form of personal debt reduction by any legal means necessary. Debt is the octane booster to the fuel that kicks in the after burner and lifts the economic wheels of the ground. When those lose contact so does any intimacy with reality.
I think that every human being has a personal choice to make regarding the future of their one and only Earth mother, and the style of existence they wish for themselves.
I have faith that some of humanity will take their future into their own hands and begin to realize life's unstressed potential, hitherto inexperienced by collective consciousness.
A philosophy that encourages withdrawal from the illusions that propagate stress is a passive, kind philosophy. One that permits the engine of illusions to die as peacefully as possible, cradled by loving arms as they say goodbye.
Until then all I can do is move my own consciousness into as real an existence as possible, one that depends more on controlling my own fuel consumption than dependence on others to continually increase theirs, through me.

Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 01:26 am
@bsfree,
bsfree;136509 wrote:


Well, wealth is created from the use of tactile and intellectual knowledge, and has produced the technologies we employ to harvest our means of survival and communication. In that sense it has been good for the world at large because it has provided a "common" platform of survival for humanity.

Greed is a wonderful attribute for becoming rich, and, as riches endow economic power, it also provides for a way to ensure that access to the "common" platform is controlled and determined by humanity homogeneously applying the methods used in the creation of the platform, thereby propagating its support.


Although an interesting point of view, I am not sure where it is coming from - i.e the basis of that knowledge or opinion. Yes, both wealth and greed i think are closely interrelated. I can't see much of an argument against wealth whether in theology, philosophy, political and social theories, however, lets try and look at what greed is.

Greed means a want or craving for more than what is required. In this conceptual hypothesis, greed which appears to be natural is more of psychological need to acquire, let us suppose wealth for this case.

It cannot be taken as a social want, for e.g a want of a man to be a King, or s Professor is perfectly justifiable. But my question is, can it be justified if a person wants more wealth just for the heck of it. The heck of it may include the excuses like 'i want to be the richest person' ; i want to be very wealthy to buy a lot of luxuries'; or a post modern want 'to buy a seat to visit moon and touch down on its surface'.

My doubt is whether the Mind has gone offtrack or not.



[QUOTE=bsfree;136509]Where are we heading for?........ Kindly place your views.[/QUOTE]
bsfree;136509 wrote:


Well, based on the preceding observations, the supports of the platform (the masses) have become pretty shaky of late, and have necessitated government interventions worldwide in an effort to shore up the supports, by replacing the monetary assets that had evaporated in the heat of greed.
Funny thing is no actual assistance is brought to the supports of the platform, the belief seems to be that shoring up the platform itself will somehow enable it to "float" without need of those pesky masses to support it.


What kind of a 'support' you are refering to?...... institutional, constitutional, religious, philosophical????????



bsfree;136758 wrote:
Just struck me, we're not just selling to each other; we're actually selling to ourselves! I mean, the general philosophy of the average consumer is to enhance their lifestyle to the greatest degree possible, within the realm of their existence.
This philosophy is not difficult to cultivate; just keep images of the "good life" in view of the masses, the mind will follow.
Once this economic engine's running it's difficult to stop because every component depends of the continued financial lubrication of every one of its parts. This kind of economic engine requires running 24/7 to operate at peak efficiency, any interruption to its financial lubrication causes a loss of pressure in its control systems that could disrupt its speed of growth.
This kind of economic engine is expensive to run, not because of the cost of the "fuel," it can run on anything that can be traded, the problem is the amount of fuel it consumes in order to grow, for it must grow in order to continue running.
In my view this vicious cycle of running the same race over and over is redundant and needs to be abolished from populous philosophy.
I think capitalism is the only way to go to solve this philosophically driven economic problem we all share. I think we should really practice being capitalistic with ourselves by withdrawing as much fuel as we can from the engine and using it for ourselves.
I think the first siphoning should be in the form of personal debt reduction by any legal means necessary. Debt is the octane booster to the fuel that kicks in the after burner and lifts the economic wheels of the ground. When those lose contact so does any intimacy with reality.
I think that every human being has a personal choice to make regarding the future of their one and only Earth mother, and the style of existence they wish for themselves.
I have faith that some of humanity will take their future into their own hands and begin to realize life's unstressed potential, hitherto inexperienced by collective consciousness.
A philosophy that encourages withdrawal from the illusions that propagate stress is a passive, kind philosophy. One that permits the engine of illusions to die as peacefully as possible, cradled by loving arms as they say goodbye.
Until then all I can do is move my own consciousness into as real an existence as possible, one that depends more on controlling my own fuel consumption than dependence on others to continually increase theirs, through me.



I liked the concept of the 'economic engine'........ and agree with almost all of that you say in this post. Metaphorical phrases like 'Debt is the octane booster'; 'the engine of illusions' are quite thoughtful.

The irony of all this problems is that Americans are most active and progressive in what they do or not do. I see that, many American are consciously taken steps to avoid energy reliance and consumption as far as possible, a few of whom i know personally go to the extent of not using any supermarket packaged stuffs, and use cycle to move around town. They go in non air conditioned cabs, trains or stay in non air conditioned rooms while on travel. Their dedication is infectious that i too have to modify my middle class upward looking lifestyle which, i believe is an effect of contagious kind in a developing nation or third world country.

And yet the majority has to make a conscious and deliberate attempt to slow down their metabolism of living in a heavily energy dependent community. The difficulty is enormous, it is not as simple as is being said of mending ways. The culture is by itself a inhibiting force. The Government having more resources to know and process the data, can theoretically impose restrictions and penalties on trade and commerce, without restricting the freedom of choice of the consumers.

While this arrangement seems to work well where the consumer is purported to be well informed if not fully informed, it is not working where the consumer is not at all informed.

Now, if my neighbour is burning wood in his back yard, the question in my mind would be how do i diseminate an information that we expect will dissuade him from not burning precious wood, without trying to infringe into his freedom of choice. This freedom of choice has been overplayed by the American society. Of course Capitalism cannot be directly blamed. It is a mixed bag of the bad of the philosophies and policies of capitalism, democracy, freedom and liberty. You put it in a cauldron called America, and the smokey feeling of a cloud is apparent but the foul smell eventually hits the nose.

Has man become indiscrete?......... What i am trying to provoke is on whether individuals like bsfree who appear to be enlightened, as this author also claims himslef to be, will be enough to change the tide of environmental, physical, corporeal, and mental catastrophe that seems to be imminent as per some credible reports?

If not, what and how should the problems of the platform be addressed and by what or which means.?
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:20 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
I don't think anybody else can do their thinking for them. If there was some way to promote sizable portions of societies into new modes of thinking - then the tide changes. But that seems highly improbable.
0 Replies
 
StochasticBeauty
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:46 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
I have a bachelors degree in economics. truth be told that means nothing plenty of you are more socially aware than my college peers. On the other hand capitalism is is very similar to social darwinism.

It is only natural that the allocation of resources slowly glob together like water droplets. Human nature is a driving force behind this as well. If a CEO in a company start lowering performance for a firm and it is not due to the mkt they lose there job instantly.

this is capitalism. With Mathusian pressures having a greater impact on scarcity the *system* of capitalism becomes inherently flawed. I agree with most things Paul Krugman has said and frankly I believe that our economic system needs to move away from competition orientation. The real question is how happy do we want everyone on the planet? vs. our country. this question is relative to what situation you were born in....
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 01:01 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades, first and foremost thank you for sharing your personal knowledge of how some people are actively reducing "external" consumption and pollution. This is heartening and reflective of my faith that humans have the capacity to "know" what is positive based on their observations of the negative.
Though their numbers may be small in relation to the "lemmings," I feel that's only because the lemmings can't see the wood for the trees. Yet!

And yet the majority has to make a conscious and deliberate attempt to slow down their metabolism of living in a heavily energy dependent community. The difficulty is enormous, it is not as simple as is being said of mending ways. The culture is by itself a inhibiting force. The Government having more resources to know and process the data, can theoretically impose restrictions and penalties on trade and commerce, without restricting the freedom of choice of the consumers.

Absolutely! You put it in a nutshell. The difficulty is enormous when viewed from the mass perspective; that's why I advocate individual response to individual difficulty with the onus on control of individual existence, rather than politically legislated mass compromise.
You freely admitted that the positive example of others has influenced your perception of your own lifestyle. This potential for conscious "evolvement" is a trait shared by all humanity, including the neighbor who burns wood in his backyard.

Has man become indiscrete?......... What i am trying to provoke is whether individuals will be enough to change the tide of environmental, physical, corporeal, and mental catastrophe that seems to be imminent as per some credible reports?

Boy, you keep hitting the proverbial nail on the head. I share the same "fears" of the actions of others and the potential effect of life in general. However, fear is a good thing to possess when contemplating ones existence, and only becomes a liability when it does the possessing. This very real potential for the tidal wave of catastrophes you speak of will affect all, but would be most destructive for those who are unprepared for the changes it will bring. A scenario such as this could be extremely dangerous for those who have achieved some level of autonomy independent of the "system." An apt analogy might be that of too few "lifeboats" to save all the souls in the waters of turmoil. In that sense survival would indeed be at the discretion of those prepared, not an enviable position to be in, but we are talking about a potentially cataclysmic situation.
My feeling is that no, individual actions may not be enough to change the tide, but it may be enough to facilitate a new "start" for some. Jeez, thoughts of Noah come to mind.
I feel that, while our paths may differ, our concept of the destination is similar enough to warrant agreement that we are indeed evolving, and, as with any evolution, a degree of extinction is necessary.
I do not care for the expression "enlightened" as much as I do "situational awareness."
The complementary nature of the expression is nice, but implies a degree of separation from the "rest" of us that I cannot feel without sadness at the loss.

---------- Post added 03-06-2010 at 02:37 PM ----------

Didn't mean to post this in the same reply. The credit for the following goes to stochasticbeauty

this is capitalism. With Mathusian pressures having a greater impact on scarcity the *system* of capitalism becomes inherently flawed. I agree with most things Paul Krugman has said and frankly I believe that our economic system needs to move away from competition orientation. The real question is how happy do we want everyone on the planet? vs. our country. this question is relative to what situation you were born in...

I believe this too, that movement away from competition and towards cooperation would be beneficial to all of us.
As for the question how happy do we want everyone on the planet to be? vs our country.
I think it's your own happiness that's of prime importance, and could be more realistically achieved in a cooperative environment for everyone.

The situation one was born into does indeed have a powerful effect on ones attitude towards life. Therein lies the rub for most of humankind I'm afraid.

bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:02 pm
@bsfree,
bsfree;136908 wrote:

The situation one was born into does indeed have a powerful effect on ones attitude towards life. Therein lies the rub for most of humankind I'm afraid.


Indeed. So what can you do if you can't change the world, but you can't shame most of it for not knowing any better as they try to "make ends meet" just to "survive?"

PhilosophyForum.com apparently. Wink
0 Replies
 
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:49 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
The last words a captain of a ship will utter as it begins to sink beneath the waves will be "save yourselves."
The ship has not sunk yet, and most don't believe it's even sinking, in the meantime the best anyone can do is help themselves, before they even stand a chance of helping others.
As said previously, the examples shown by oneself may help others more than simple words can do. But only you can decide what course of actions that may take.
I wasn't given a manual either, we're all stuck with learning as we go.
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 03:39 am
@bsfree,
bsfree;136908 wrote:
The difficulty is enormous when viewed from the mass perspective; that's why I advocate individual response to individual difficulty with the onus on control of individual existence, rather than politically legislated mass compromise.
You freely admitted that the positive example of others has influenced your perception of your own lifestyle. This potential for conscious "evolvement" is a trait shared by all humanity, including the neighbor who burns wood in his backyard.

I would agree with the 'conscious evolvement' theory. I think thats a natural evolving story. It happens all around us. It was around 2500 years ago, that a Jain monk called Mahavir Jain, living in India, not just propagated the idea of humans 'consciously' avoiding killing of vermins and insects, but lived a life according to those Jaina philosophies so acquired. Today the world has waken up to those ideas.

I wonder with the vantage of present time over the 10000 years of recorded history would it take another 2500 years for humankind where every one will be 'consciously' aware of the right economic system which would try to safe gaurd the well being of the earth and its inhabitants.
The point is should i ask my government to stop my neighbours 'free' and 'righted' activity of chooping his 'own' wood in his 'own property'.

Now, before the pro-capitalist lobby pounce on me, i would clarify, that i have no intention to disregard the title and devoid him of his property, all I would want is the governemnet to disapprove his harmful activity. Is it too much of an asking?
If he does not listen, than he should be fined, or penalised/punished whatever. Would that be wrong? Will the individual's ego be hurt, or legally his 'right of occupation or freedom be compromised? Is such compromise, not for the common good rather than the 'individuals/private good', which is basically just a feeling or a notion.

Or should we wait for word of mouth propoagation and wait for a 'conscious evolvement' to somehow take place; the somehow may include the wait for a passport holding Jain monk to pass by!.

You or any reader/members need to tell me. Please.

[QUOTE=bsfree;136908] My feeling is that no, individual actions may not be enough to change the tide, but it may be enough to facilitate a new "start" for some. Jeez, thoughts of Noah come to mind.[/quote]
bsfree;136908 wrote:

I feel that, while our paths may differ, our concept of the destination is similar enough to warrant agreement that we are indeed evolving, and, as with any evolution, a degree of extinction is necessary.


I agree.


[QUOTE=bsfree;136908] I do not care for the expression "enlightened" as much as I do "situational awareness." [/quote]
bsfree;136908 wrote:
The complementary nature of the expression is nice, but implies a degree of separation from the "rest" of us that I cannot feel without sadness at the loss.

These are words of an 'en-light-ened' person. The degree of seperation is evident because of the 'evolving' nature of life systems. The fact that only a few are involved in discussing the matters of life on earth, itself shows the seperation even as humility has a virtous value attributed to it.
The loss shows the deficit in two human minds. It is natural. There should be acceptance and not sadness. Regards
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 09:26 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades;137150 wrote:

Now, before the pro-capitalist lobby pounce on me, i would clarify, that i have no intention to disregard the title and devoid him of his property, all I would want is the governemnet to disapprove his harmful activity. Is it too much of an asking?

If he does not listen, than he should be fined, or penalised/punished whatever. Would that be wrong? Will the individual's ego be hurt, or legally his 'right of occupation or freedom be compromised? Is such compromise, not for the common good rather than the 'individuals/private good', which is basically just a feeling or a notion.


In this scenario, it seems like a science experiment taking place in the world as it is today. Your libertarian, anarchist, or conservative capitalist friends certainly would pounce on you for suggesting the government enforce environmental regulation. I think if you did that in today's government, as an example, it would not work.

Putting a price on nature, IE: fines or carbon credits, IMHO, is trying to solve a problem of control and domination with even more control. Once something intangible, like love, or the planet that supports us in the grand scheme, gets a price tag, a tangible value, put on it - it is meaningless.

At that point, whoever or whatever would gladly pay any fines or taxes to any government as long as it was worth it. They did an experiment with fines and a day care, once. The daycare had a problem with parents not picking up their kids on time, so they started to charge them for being late. The problem only got worse, as the parents were picking up their children late, and now instead of shame or guilt driving them not to - empathy for daycare workers - they just paid the fine. Sort of like the Catholic church before the Protestant Revolution, back in the day, buying off sins.

We need a shift in our value system. If everyone valued, or understood, the true consequences and externalized costs, whether to other peoples, countries, or the planet itself, maybe things would change. If you put a price tag on it, I think it will only make it worse, because it will only further the reach money has. IMHO, of course.

What do you think?
0 Replies
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 12:42 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Hi

I too am of the firm belief that carbon credit rating system is a flawed concept and instrument to make change....... I agree with your assertion that fines does not solve the problem. The affluent would find a way through their money to keep the day-care worker busy, and happy too!...... Just like bsfree had alluded with his/her example of the few lifeboat against the many needed to rescue n number of people. Here I remember the movie 'Titanic' where the affluent class could manage to find a 'lifeboat' with money and a gun, while the ship was on the verge of sinking.........

So yes money is part of the problem, but its just a part.

Quickly, lets get back to the carbon crediting system. If suppose a state government of say, Malaysia wants to cut a few hectares of prime rain forests, it either does it on its own or sells it to a company, which is also looking for funds to do the contract. The state sells a part of the carbon credit it has been credited with for the major pool of rain forest it has, to a western industrial unit, which needs some credit so as to offset the carbon foot print which is to occur once its expansion of a plant takes place.

Just like you said, the third world, and the tropical world where most of the tropical rain forests exists today are given to understand that they will gain from such arrangemenst since they receive some much wanted dollars so that the few hectares can be cleared and some sort of mining can take place, the woods are sold, and the land is opened to induatry and agriculture. Now this deceivement is a double whammy. Not only the rain forest becomes history, the expansion unit of the western company emits an extra burden of Green house gases into the atmosphere without any feeling of guilt nor an regulatory authority pestering them. It was made to look as if it is win-win arrangement. But its not. It is actually a loose-loose situation. For the executive of the company, the owners of the contrators, and the governemnt officials is happy with the exchange of funds and they make gains out of it. For them it is win-win. But not to any one else.

let us ponder on the loss. Whose loss would it be any way, if any. The loss is neither of the state government, Nor the contrators, neither it would be of the company that purchased those credits. The loss is of the humankind, the loss is the citizens of malaysia, the animals which lived in those rain forests, the loss is of the important trees, and the oxygen and rain generated 'engine' called a rainforest. The loss is of the people staying around the purchasers plant or factory. The air, water and soil pollution, and loss of the carbon sink is going to be th eburden of the future generation. Look how the governments deceive us into believing that a 'good' is beng done while in fact a 'harm' is being perpetrated.

We outside the governement is gullible, but only transparency in governemnet functions and education of people can help the cause. And perhaps democarcy seems to be the safest bet.

So yes, putting a price tags on such things is a non-starter. The shift in the value system as you suggested needs to come from influential people who are able to direct the policies. Today those who can lobby, which is legal in USA, are able to influnce the economic directions and policies. The idea should be to influence governmental policy.

Individual to individual, people to people, groups to groups the message needs to be spread. Politicians would be happy to ride piggy back over a peoples movement towards a more environmentally friendly world economy with environmental ethics as its central theme. Individual environmental concerns should turn into mass movements. The recent events and signs emanating from the governements are positive signals, and therfore I am full of hope on that count.

The question is, how far the economics of the day will ruin the future of tomorrow.
0 Replies
 
bsfree
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 02:32 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jackofalltrades, I see you are from India and have the cultural philosophy of your heritage instilled within you. I feel for your anguish at trying to reconcile the capitalistic effects on our Earth with your own knowledge of what is "right" and "wrong." The Jain monk knew that in the destruction of any life form the fabric that supports us is weakened. To extrapolate that to capitalistic destruction of resources for short sighted monetary gain is indeed a painful realization.
We certainly don't have the luxury of another 2500 years to "get it right," this is why I feel we may have to learn the "hard" way, and why I advocate a degree of self sufficiency and realization of the Earthly truths of our existence.
Your thoughts on the "bad" neighbor and bringing him into the fold through government authority may be valid, you understand the system you live in better than I do, and if the choice is imposed on him by laws does that mean his free will has been overidden? And is that less important than the common good?
I think that leaders should invoke a degree of authority to maintain what is in the common good, so long as that leadership is done through us, rather than of us.
Thank you again for your insightful thinking.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 12:38 am
@bsfree,
bsfree;137293 wrote:
We certainly don't have the luxury of another 2500 years to "get it right," this is why I feel we may have to learn the "hard" way, and why I advocate a degree of self sufficiency and realization of the Earthly truths of our existence.



Thanks
What is the 'hard' way? You are right on the aspects of self sufficiency, and realisation of earthly truths...... But lets talk in the real sense....... please tell me, which country in the first world has not acheived some kind of sufficiency; which country of the west exists where at least 75 percent to 99 percent are literate and a majority well educated. But yet we see education alone does not solve the problem. In any society, stoneage or modern, western or eastern, northern or southern, the carrot and stick principle works more efficiently where herds exists. Let us accept that we all are part of that herd.

There is no way but the pragmatic way, is how i look for a solution. The idea that self control will work is asking for too much of self discipline in human affairs and individuals conduct. Corporates have shown that business ethics cant stop them from being indisciplined, aggressive and loose as a wild horse.


bsfree;137293 wrote:
Your thoughts on the "bad" neighbor and bringing him into the fold through government authority may be valid, you understand the system you live in better than I do, and if the choice is imposed on him by laws does that mean his free will has been overidden? And is that less important than the common good?
I think that leaders should invoke a degree of authority to maintain what is in the common good, so long as that leadership is done through us, rather than of us..


The free will concept, frankly, is a forgery of thought. It is a post renaisance tool of intelligence trying to assert itself over traditional authority, and a philosophy that used to say 'might is right'. We used it to say that 'freedom is right'. But having used it to free oursleves from the clutches of dogma, power and authority; today we see ourselves trapped by the indulgences of affluent man in the name of 'freedom'.

The consequence of the actions of an affluent society is harming those who least bothered to jump on this bandwagon called 'freedom movement'. We are on the brink of a clash of civilisation. Is that not enough to make us think of practical and pragmatic solutions, from the debris collected from the ills of capitalsim and communism.

Sorry, as i may seem to be a bit pressy. Pardon me for that. But let us walk the extra mile and and try and see what actualy lies on the horizon, instead of guessing. Lets analyse with all the data available. I am trying to find a solution, lets us move all the stones from our path to a peaceful life on earth.
0 Replies
 
bmcreider
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 02:16 am
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Aren't we all hypocritical? Yes, lol, I think.

Here we are ranting about capitalism, when capitalism has provided the markets for us to do so, the internet, Barnes and Noble, etc...

But we know, or I think I do, that communism is no better in the long run. It kills a lot of people very obviously, and capitalism externalizes and disguises the human cost to run itself. The world economy as I see it now is a play, and the countries have different roles. Without America to buy up all the things socialist states in Europe produce, could they survive? Without consumers, of which we are the best, the economy, whether socialist, capitalist, or communist (China, in this case) - cannot survive.

No one wants regression to the stone age, we've all (in this country, myself included), become accustomed to our addictions. Internet, for me, TV for a lot, video games, ipods, iphones, cell phones in general, phones in general, radio, "bills", life insurance, car insurance, house insurance, etc.

So, besides total systemic collapse, and who knows what after, what can you really do? You have billions of people out there mostly supporting this system of unsustainable interest, growth, profits, exploitation, etc. Whether it's the commies, the ruskies, lol, the American pigs, Europe, whoever - everyone wants money.

Is some Star Trek, anti-money utopia the only way? A Sci-fi philosophy, really?

I can't find the answer, I don't know if there is one, this all just may be an unavoidable consequence of human consciousness ruled over, in most people, by innate mammalian and reptilian emotions and instincts. Evolution is blind, and I think we're walking proof of that.

So, sorry to be of no help Wink.
Jackofalltrades phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 12:04 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;137445 wrote:

No one wants regression to the stone age, we've all (in this country, myself included), become accustomed to our addictions. Internet, for me, TV for a lot, video games, ipods, iphones, cell phones in general, phones in general, radio, "bills", life insurance, car insurance, house insurance, etc.

So, besides total systemic collapse, and who knows what after, what can you really do? You have billions of people out there mostly supporting this system of unsustainable interest, growth, profits, exploitation, etc. Whether it's the commies, the ruskies, lol, the American pigs, Europe, whoever - everyone wants money.

Is some Star Trek, anti-money utopia the only way? A Sci-fi philosophy, really?


Its good that you brought in the issue of hypocrisy. Look, when we say that some or certain aspects of capitalism is getting bad to worse, it should not be seen as nothing is good in a capitalist set-up. We often fall into the traps of opposites. Although good for debating, propensity of humans, especially the political man, to see political philosophies from two polarities is harming the whole discourse of politics.

Capitalism works perfectly in a small scale scenario, in the Agricultural economy, i think it worked fantastically. Then, as you alluded the industrial economy brought in new means of labour, production and profits. In the post Industrial society, finance became mind bogglingly large that even that no one institution gorget individuals could keep check of the trail and record of cash flow. Even the best of economists including the heads of the FED could not anticipate, forget visualisation, the Aug 2008 crises or collapse of the financial system world over.

Your phrase - 'supporting the system of unsustainable growth, profit' etc - is quite apt to describe the huge ball that was set rolling after the industrial era began. The laws of physics says that to move or stop a object one needs to apply force equal or more than what is in motion. You are right that it is nearly impossible to apply such a force.

But what we can acheive is to slow down the pace of unsustainable growth. I think it would be a greater hypocrisy if after having known about what harm i sbeeing done or what is going to entail, we remain helpless by saying that the problem is so huge that it is beyond any remedy. I think thats a folly.

It is similar to an excuse given by a cigarrette smoker who knows that his smoking is affecting everyone including his own helath and his childs, wifes or parents, but does not quit because he previously failed to keep up to his promise or resolution. Or for that matter, the fat woman who thinks that now that she is middle aged there is nothing one can do for her bulkness and reconcile to th efact that she may have to die like an elephant making a thud while falling to th eground dead.

The human spirit is not like these individuals. The collective will can definitely bring change. Whats needed is realisation, and later action.

bmcreider;137445 wrote:
I can't find the answer, I don't know if there is one, this all just may be an unavoidable consequence of human consciousness ruled over, in most people, by innate mammalian and reptilian emotions and instincts. Evolution is blind, and I think we're walking proof of that.
So, sorry to be of no help Wink.


Evolution is blind, and we're proof of it is a profound observation. Evolution will provide answers, we only need to look for the signs and the stimulus. Thanks
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 12:45 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Capitalism, as we've developed it today, is outmoded. The 18th century growth concepts still work for the emerging economies and the Third World but have lost a lot of their utility in the industrialized West.

We're only just beginning to grasp the transformation that was ushered in during the Reagan years. As Chris Hedges argues in his recent book "Empire of Illusion, The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle" America's decline became inevitable when, three decades ago, it morphed from being a culture of production into a culture of consumption. When Reagan entered the White House America was the world's largest creditor nation. When he left America had become the world's largest debtor nation. However, so dominant was the American economy that foreign creditors have gladly financed America's excess ever since.

Former Republican insider, Kevin Phillips, compared the decline of the American empire to the previous experiences of the Spanish, the Dutch and finally the British empires. Americans tend to be uncomfortable with the notion of empire but their nation's political, economic and military hegemony constitute just that except in name only.

Phillips, in his book "American Theocracy" notes that all of the earlier empires fell into decline when they abandoned manufacturing in favour of finance. He examines the rise of the FIRE (finance, insurance, real estate) economy in the United States that accompanied the export of America's manufacturing base. What Phillips shows is that America, like the British, Dutch and Spanish by turns before it, has fallen into the trap of using its wealth to grow the economies of its successors, in this case China and India. He also demonstrates why FIRE economies, no matter how massive, are very brittle and tend to break when economic downturns occur. Manufacturing economies are, by comparison, much more robust and resilient.

An article appeared recently, I believe in either Harper's or The New Yorker magazine, about an awakening in America to the critical need to restore its manufacturing base. The article suggested that attempts to reverse the trend have failed. That's almost inevitable when globalization frees the movement of capital by dismantling of duties and tariffs. You can't have both. Capitalism won't allow that.

American intellectual Lewis Lapham, who comes from a very patrician Republican family, believes the rot set in during the Nixon years when, as he describes it, wealth came to be equated with virtue.

In shifting from production to consumption, capitalism can become truly degenerate. One need only look at the emergence of America's 'bubble economy' and the accompanying rise of what's called 'casino capitalism' to get that point. Capitalism, like socialism, comes in a variety of forms, some far less benign than others.

Canadian-born economist John Kenneth Galbraith, who served in the administrations of Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy and Johnson, pointed out that America is intolerant of socialism with but one exception - socialism for the rich. He would not have been surprised whatsoever at the Wall Street bailouts nor the casino capitalism that triggered them.

Surely subsidies are indicative of socialism and what sector has been so subsidized as America's military-industrial complex? The history of contract overruns is staggering.

So, while we see the United States as the bastion of capitalism, it is astonishingly socialist but inordinately toward the most advantaged. Scandinavian socialism targets the ordinary citizen. American socialism targets what George w. Bush referred to as his "...base, the 'haves' and the 'have-mores'."
0 Replies
 
 

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