An example of Free Will

@KaseiJin,

KaseiJin;68210 wrote:

Interesting ideas and wanderings of the mind. You do seem to not have much grip on definitions, which I'd really like to encourage you towards giving further consideration to, richrf. There is a difference between the terms 'mind' and 'brain,' 'consciousness' and 'conscious.' In order to carry on more meaningful dialog, would it not be best to more fully understand the referents for the terms that are being used?

What sets you off on your course of sleep, is not what we'll call mind. What causes the alpha and theta waves, the K waves and spindles that occur during the various stages of sleep will never, ever be learned about by simply contemplating the state of sleep during a day-dreaming moment under a shade tree on a summer afternoon.

Also, I might mention that nobody has past lives--regardless of what some have offered for evidence of such (other explanations win out). One prime reason for this is that there is this thing called evolutionary process, and this thing call genetic sharing. Now you may not have studied that much in genetics yet, but in time, I'm sure you will. I would guess that you'd know that you are recombination of exactly 50% or your father's and 50% of your mother's recombined genetic material from their parents. You, as that once in eternity combination--a build which makes your brain which has build (and is building) into your mind from which and with which consciousness is projected--have never ever been before, nor will ever be again (probably even if we see all as potential energy, even, it would hold).

Hi,

Thanks for sharing your views with me. I disagree with all of them, as I explained above. Just exercising my Free Will to disagree and have different views. Smile

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

Salima, the problem is 'consciousness' has a lot of unproductive, teleological connotations associated.

'Consciousness' refers to the noun, and no, conscious is not a noun, it's an adjective. 'Conscious' is more materialistic oriented, naturalistic. A good thing I might add.

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401;68383 wrote:

Salima, the problem is 'consciousness' has a lot of unproductive, teleological connotations associated.

'Consciousness' refers to the noun, and no, conscious is not a noun, it's an adjective. 'Conscious' is more materialistic oriented, naturalistic. A good thing I might add.

Yes, I use Consciousness (both Universal and Individual) for these reasons.

Thank you.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Quote:

Last night I went to sleep. While I was asleep, I had no sense of space, time, obligation, sense, awareness of my body or myself, or thought. I was just asleep.

All of a sudden, I woke up. I decided to wake myself up. When I did, I created space, time, senses, awareness of myself, and thought. No one else and no other thing was involved. Just me and myself. I am pretty proud of what I did. <applause>. Thank you.

Rich

I call BS because how do we know that you decided to wake up? Because I would like to see the person who goes to sleep and decides to stay asleep for like five days straight (not in a comma). Just had a week off work and had nothing better to do. Don't give me the excuse that your body would require that you wake up and force you awake. If this is your argument then it was not free will to remain sleeping.

Free will is an illusion.

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple;68502 wrote:

I call BS because how do we know that you decided to wake up? Because I would like to see the person who goes to sleep and decides to stay asleep for like five days straight (not in a comma). Just had a week off work and had nothing better to do. Don't give me the excuse that your body would require that you wake up and force you awake. If this is your argument then it was not free will to remain sleeping.

Free will is an illusion.

Hi there,

I gave this example, as an phenomenon that is rarely discussed in any fields of study, yet permeates life. If you might ponder the ability for Consciousness to wake itself up, you may find, as I do, that it is quite fascinating. Equally fascinating is the ability of Consciousness to instantaneously go from a state of space/time to one of no space/time. I ask myself, how the heck does it do it?? Same Consciousness, totally different way of Being.

Anyway, if it doesn't interest you today, maybe in 50 years when you have nothing else to do. Smile

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

"Free will is an illusion"

yes, krumple, it is

but the phenomenon it placeholds for is not

'free will' (the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces) is a fiction with roots in the theological

if 'free will' exists: it's the purview of 'god'

we lowly humans have to get by with 'agency' (the capacity of an agent to act in the world)...each of us is restrained within and without by the fundamental way the world 'works', but -- within the restraint of the world -- the individual can still deliberate and choose

so: if rich did what he claims (and i have no opinion one way or the other) then he was exercising his 'agency' (his power as agent; him 'self), not 'free will'

1 Reply

@henry quirk,

henry quirk;68532 wrote:

"Free will is an illusion"

yes, krumple, it is

but the phenomenon it placeholds for is not

'free will' (the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces) is a fiction with roots in the theological

if 'free will' exists: it's the purview of 'god'

we lowly humans have to get by with 'agency' (the capacity of an agent to act in a world)...each of us is restrained within and without by the fundamental way the world 'works', but -- within the restraint of the world -- the individual can still deliberate and choose

so: if rich did what he claims (and i have no opinion one way or the other) then he was exercising his 'agency' (his power as agent; him 'self), not 'free will'

Hi,

For me, Free Will does not mean I can do what I choose. We are all constrained by all of the other Free Wills that surround us (i.e. Individual Consciousness'). However, I do believe that we can each choose a direction - i.e. navigate, either this way or that. We will be met by outside forces whichever direction we choose to, but each direction provides a different set of challenges and circumstances - and learning to navigate through these circumstances (e.g. a day on the job), is an aspect of everyone's life.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

"...I do believe that we can each choose a direction - i.e. navigate, either this way or that. We will be met by outside forces whichever direction we choose to, but each direction provides a different set of challenges and circumstances - and learning to navigate through these circumstances (e.g. a day on the job), is an aspect of everyone's life."

that's another way of talking about 'agency', as far as i can see

'free will' has a specific cluster of definitions...each of these definitions is about 'the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces', therefore: 'free will' as concept and as placeholder is bankrupt...another way to look at 'free will': as placeholder, it's accreted so many barnacles as to be un-seaworthy

'agency', however, is a nice, sleek, vessel that can take on any sea, calm or stormy... Wink

1 Reply

@henry quirk,

Hi,

henry quirk;68548 wrote:

"...I do believe that we can each choose a direction - i.e. navigate, either this way or that. We will be met by outside forces whichever direction we choose to, but each direction provides a different set of challenges and circumstances - and learning to navigate through these circumstances (e.g. a day on the job), is an aspect of everyone's life."

that's another way of talking about 'agency', as far as i can see

'free will' has a specific cluster of definitions...each of these definitions is about 'the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces', therefore: 'free will' as concept and as placeholder is bankrupt...another way to look at 'free will': as placeholder, it's accreted so many barnacles as to be un-seaworthy

'agency', however, is a nice, sleek, vessel that can take on any sea, calm or stormy...

For me, Free Will is a bit redundant, but does carry the context that fits well in my philosophy.

In Chinese Philosophy, there is the concept of Zhi (Will). Will applies to the desire for the physical body (Po) to survive. As part of this drive to survive, there is the ability to choose direction. So Will (Zhi) is very applicable to my perspective on Life. The Zhi, is Free, since it is the Individual Consciousness (Hun) that is working in concert with Will (Zhi). So, in my philosophy, it is a bit redundant to say Free Will, and I usually just refer to it as Will (Zhi). But since these concepts are a bit foreign in Western philosophy and philosophy forums, I choose the closest term, in order to avoid too much confusion.

I hope this explains. I do understand your preference for agency, and when you use the term, I will understand what you are saying.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

"that's another way of talking about 'agency', as far as I can see"

"'agency', however, is a nice, sleek, vessel that can take on any sea, calm or stormy..."

henry quirk,
Could you please go into more detail exactly what you mean by "agency" in this context?
If you have already, please point a link to that post, I would like to follow your line of thought on this.
Thanks

2 Replies

@Jay phil,

Zhi (Will) Consciousness (Hun) or 'conscious will' or 'willed will'

got ya!

-----

"henry quirk"

you can just call me henry

"Could you please go into more detail exactly what you mean by "agency" in this context?"

'agency' is simply the capacity of an agent to act in the world

the lynch pin of the definition is 'agent'

now: what do i mean by agent?

i mean the organic, discreet, whole, autonomous, human individual

certainly: in observing others, or through self-interrogation, i can conclude the *idiosyncrat can 'choose' and 'act' on those choices (execute his or her 'agency')

while 'free will', by the very nature of the concept, demands the individual be free of restraint within and without, 'agency', as notion, makes no attempt to separate the *idiosyncrat from causal chains...agency is simply the assertion the agent, while mired in and part of causal chains, also initiates casual chains

deterministic 'event causation': a branch falls on the house because gales break the branch?the gales are a function of a weather system that itself is a function of the planetary heat sink which is a result of stellar radiation which is the result of fusing hydrogen which is the result of a collapse of gases 5 billion years ago which the result of...and you get the idea: an unbroken chain or chains of cause and effect (event causation)

deterministic 'agent causation': a branch falls on the house because joe cut it...joe noticed the branch, thought it might pose a problem if there was ever ugly weather and -- instead of calling a tree service -- attempted to remove the branch himself

he spent the better part of the morning thinking, and getting advice, on the subject (how to do it, what tools he'd need, etc.)...after calculating that a rope tied around the branch 'just so' and pulled tight 'just so' would keep the branch away from the home, he goes on to chain-saw the mother

unfortunately: joe's calculations are off and the branch falls directly onto the roof (illustrating 'agency/agent' allows for the attempt, but doesn't guarantee success!)

certainly: joe is mired in a causal chain (the presence of the branch set off a line of thinking about the possibilities of the branch's fall) but instead of a simple 'cause > effect', joe deliberated his options, made phone calls, drew up lists and made sketches...joe interposed him 'self' as 'cause' in at least some of the proceedings

event causation: a leads to b leads to c leads to d etc.

agent causation: the idiosyncrat/agent examines his circumstance, considers his options, chooses a course, and acts/'attempts'

'agency', as far as i can see, doesn't violate a deterministic universe but merely tweaks it

this, ''agency', however, is a nice, sleek, vessel that can take on any sea, calm or stormy', is something for rich as he's fond of the sea navigation analogies

*i sometimes shorthand 'organic, discreet, whole, autonomous, human individual' with 'philosophical ego' or 'idiosyncrat'

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;67791 wrote:

Last night I went to sleep. While I was asleep, I had no sense of space, time, obligation, sense, awareness of my body or myself, or thought. I was just asleep.

All of a sudden, I woke up. I decided to wake myself up. When I did, I created space, time, senses, awareness of myself, and thought. No one else and no other thing was involved. Just me and myself. I am pretty proud of what I did. <applause>. Thank you.

Rich

A free will is, by definition, a conscious will. Therefore, Since you were asleep, and therefore your conscious will was asleep, it could not have decided to wake you up. It must have been your unconscious that woke you up. An unconscious will is, by definition, a determined will.

1 Reply

@innocent phil,

innocent;69214 wrote:

A free will is, by definition, a conscious will. Therefore, Since you were asleep, and therefore your conscious will was asleep, it could not have decided to wake you up. It must have been your unconscious that woke you up. An unconscious will is, by definition, a determined will.

Hi there innocent,

I am not satisfied with some of the very narrow definitions I find in philosophy texts. I think they are fine for starters, but I think that life is far more complex. I have never read a philosopher, other than Heraclitus, who discusses the nature of sleep, which occupies fully 1/3 of out lives.

When I am asleep things are happening. Last night I had a dream. It was without any sense of time, space, or continuity. Yet my mind was still considering it.

Lots of things happen in sleep. Maybe all remembering happens in sleep. In any case, Something wakes me up. I call this the Will. The Will that drives us to stay alive in physical form. It may be the same Will that creates birth. It is this Will, acting totally independently and without any outside influence, that I refer to. If you think about it tonight while sleeping, I think you may be as awed and fascinated at the process of awake/sleep/awake as I am. Think about it, one moment your here, the next moment you are THERE, and then the next moment you are "here" again.

BTW, for me Will (the Chinese Zhi) does not have the property of conscious or unconscious. It just does. However, mindfulness (the Chinese Yi) may or may not be aware of what the heck the Will is doing. I think Chinese philosophers have fine tuned the nature of life in a way that makes sense to me.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

"Zhi (Will) Consciousness (Hun) or 'conscious will' or 'willed will'"...rich

where does the chinese Yi fit into the above?
would zhi be awareness or intelligence without concentrating on any object
would yi be concentration? consciousness of an object?

1 Reply

@salima,

salima;69270 wrote:

"Zhi (Will) Consciousness (Hun) or 'conscious will' or 'willed will'"...rich

where does the chinese Yi fit into the above?
would zhi be awareness or intelligence without concentrating on any object
would yi be concentration? consciousness of an object?

Hi Salima,

You can look at my blog for more info, but here is a quick summary:

1) Shen: The Spirit. The inspiration and initiator for Being. Resides in the Heart. In the hierarchy, this would be at the top.

2) Hun: The Soul. Transcendental. Has many physical lives. It is the part of you that is exploring and learning. Resides in the Liver.

3) Yi. The creative mind. It is what you refer to as awareness. Resides in the Spleen and connected to the brain via the spine. In Tai Chi, you learn how to move with the Yi as opposed to the Zhi. Singers and artists use the Yi to create.

4) Zhi: Will. This is provides drive. The desire to keep living. To move in some direction. It resides in the Kidneys where you find Qi or energy of life.

5) Po: A single physical life. It manifests the physical form. Resides in the lungs where the body creates Qi (energy).

This is a very brief summary, but I hope it gives you some idea of Chinese philosophy/metaphysics. The same picture of the human form is used in Chinese medicine to treat disharmoney in the mind, body, and soul.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;69239 wrote:

Hi there innocent,

I am not satisfied with some of the very narrow definitions I find in philosophy texts. I think they are fine for starters, but I think that life is far more complex. I have never read a philosopher, other than Heraclitus, who discusses the nature of sleep, which occupies fully 1/3 of out lives.

When I am asleep things are happening. Last night I had a dream. It was without any sense of time, space, or continuity. Yet my mind was still considering it.

Lots of things happen in sleep. Maybe all remembering happens in sleep. In any case, Something wakes me up. I call this the Will. The Will that drives us to stay alive in physical form. It may be the same Will that creates birth. It is this Will, acting totally independently and without any outside influence, that I refer to. If you think about it tonight while sleeping, I think you may be as awed and fascinated at the process of awake/sleep/awake as I am. Think about it, one moment your here, the next moment you are THERE, and then the next moment you are "here" again.

Rich

Hi Rich,

Thanks for getting me to consider the mystery of transitioning to and from sleep; I have to ponder that some more.

The issue of determinism vs. free will matters so much because the way we view personal responsibility is totally dependant upon it. For example, one person is taught by his parents to not steal, and he doesn't steal. A second person is taught by his parent to steal, and he steals. Those who believe we humans have free wills will blame the second person for dutifully following the moral precept his parents taught him. Does that seem fair to you?

1 Reply

@innocent phil,

innocent;69332 wrote:

Hi Rich,

Thanks for getting me to consider the mystery of transitioning to and from sleep; I have to ponder that some more.

The issue of determinism vs. free will matters so much because the way we view personal responsibility is totally dependant upon it. For example, one person is taught by his parents to not steal, and he doesn't steal. A second person is taught by his parent to steal, and he steals. Those who believe we humans have free wills will blame the second person for dutifully following the moral precept his parents taught him. Does that seem fair to you?

Hi innocent,

As I develop my philosophy which I use in my life, I always take a look around me to see what is happening.

Look at a person. Anyone. There he or she is. Surrounded by all types of forces. People, environment, animals, information, ... etc. etc. etc. All of that is being soaked in. Some the person is aware of. Others not. And based upon all this, and using the skills that one has learned, a decision is made. To go this way or that way. To try this or that. It is happening moment by moment.

In terms of blame. Should a person have greater skill? Should a better decision have been made. The person made a mistake? That is the only way to learn. Are mistakes something that should be admonished or something encouraged since mistakes are the way we learn.

As for sleep. Contemplate two things. The moment you go to sleep and they moment you wake up. Observe it.

If you dream, observe your own experience. How did this dream happen? From where? You are awake and everything is in space time. How the heck did the mind all of a sudden switch to "no space time". Where the heck did that come from, how was it done (same brain, same mind), and for what reason. If this doesn't occupy an inquiring mind the rest of its life, nothing will. Smile

The only person I have read who discussed this phenomenon was Heraclitus. Not even Jung addressed it. Amazingly, his conclusions, as best as I can tell from various translations, dovetails my own. I think the Mind is Amazing! Smile

Cya,
Rich

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@Jay phil,

I am surprized quite a bit then, discovering that you are 57 years old and disagree that you are a reshuffle of the genetic material from your biological parents.

Anyway, one question. How much research have you done in the field of sleep, anyway? (I'd love to hear a very detailed answer, please)

1 Reply

@KaseiJin,

KaseiJin;69363 wrote:

I am surprized quite a bit then, discovering that you are 57 years old and disagree that you are a reshuffle of the genetic material from your biological parents.

Anyway, one question. How much research have you done in the field of sleep, anyway? (I'd love to hear a very detailed answer, please)

If you are talking about scientific research on sleep, I do not find it very interesting. Measure this. Measure that. But when I am in the mood to read about some of it, it does pass time and provides some enjoyment. I am glad the researchers have found a way to spend their life and earn money.

Genetic material? It is also not very interesting for me. But I know that lots of other people enjoy reading about it a a lot. Some people prefer sports, others, gossip, and some genetic science. As for me, since I have a limited time in this life, I prefer a good play or one of Camus' writings. Heraclitus is simply fabulous. Gives me a lot more insight into Life. But others may have a different point of view. There is something for everyone. Different journeys.

Rich

0 Replies

@richrf,

Therefore am I correct in taking the understanding that you have done no research or study in these areas at all--since your response was not in precise terms? Or, if you have done some reading, could you please share the source information with me, if you have recollection of it, or have it on file, or something? I'd appreciate that.

1 Reply

An example of Free Will

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