An example of Free Will

Interesting ideas and wanderings of the mind. You do seem to not have much grip on definitions, which I'd really like to encourage you towards giving further consideration to, richrf. There is a difference between the terms 'mind' and 'brain,' 'consciousness' and 'conscious.' In order to carry on more meaningful dialog, would it not be best to more fully understand the referents for the terms that are being used?

What sets you off on your course of sleep, is not what we'll call mind. What causes the alpha and theta waves, the K waves and spindles that occur during the various stages of sleep will never, ever be learned about by simply contemplating the state of sleep during a day-dreaming moment under a shade tree on a summer afternoon.

Also, I might mention that nobody has past lives--regardless of what some have offered for evidence of such (other explanations win out). One prime reason for this is that there is this thing called evolutionary process, and this thing call genetic sharing. Now you may not have studied that much in genetics yet, but in time, I'm sure you will. I would guess that you'd know that you are recombination of exactly 50% or your father's and 50% of your mother's recombined genetic material from their parents. You, as that once in eternity combination--a build which makes your brain which has build (and is building) into your mind from which and with which consciousness is projected--have never ever been before, nor will ever be again (probably even if we see all as potential energy, even, it would hold).

Salima, the problem is 'consciousness' has a lot of unproductive, teleological connotations associated.

'Consciousness' refers to the noun, and no, conscious is not a noun, it's an adjective. 'Conscious' is more materialistic oriented, naturalistic. A good thing I might add.

Last night I went to sleep. While I was asleep, I had no sense of space, time, obligation, sense, awareness of my body or myself, or thought. I was just asleep.

All of a sudden, I woke up. I decided to wake myself up. When I did, I created space, time, senses, awareness of myself, and thought. No one else and no other thing was involved. Just me and myself. I am pretty proud of what I did. <applause>. Thank you.

Rich

I call BS because how do we know that you decided to wake up? Because I would like to see the person who goes to sleep and decides to stay asleep for like five days straight (not in a comma). Just had a week off work and had nothing better to do. Don't give me the excuse that your body would require that you wake up and force you awake. If this is your argument then it was not free will to remain sleeping.

Free will is an illusion.

"Free will is an illusion"

yes, krumple, it is

but the phenomenon it placeholds for is not

'free will' (the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces) is a fiction with roots in the theological

if 'free will' exists: it's the purview of 'god'

we lowly humans have to get by with 'agency' (the capacity of an agent to act in a world)...each of us is restrained within and without by the fundamental way the world 'works', but -- within the restraint of the world -- the individual can still deliberate and choose

so: if rich did what he claims (and i have no opinion one way or the other) then he was exercising his 'agency' (his power as agent; him 'self), not 'free will'

"...I do believe that we can each choose a direction - i.e. navigate, either this way or that. We will be met by outside forces whichever direction we choose to, but each direction provides a different set of challenges and circumstances - and learning to navigate through these circumstances (e.g. a day on the job), is an aspect of everyone's life."


that's another way of talking about 'agency', as far as i can see

'free will' has a specific cluster of definitions...each of these definitions is about 'the power of making choices unrestrained by external, or internal, forces', therefore: 'free will' as concept and as placeholder is bankrupt...another way to look at 'free will': as placeholder, it's accreted so many barnacles as to be un-seaworthy

'agency', however, is a nice, sleek, vessel that can take on any sea, calm or stormy...

Last night I went to sleep. While I was asleep, I had no sense of space, time, obligation, sense, awareness of my body or myself, or thought. I was just asleep.

All of a sudden, I woke up. I decided to wake myself up. When I did, I created space, time, senses, awareness of myself, and thought. No one else and no other thing was involved. Just me and myself. I am pretty proud of what I did. <applause>. Thank you.

Rich

A free will is, by definition, a conscious will. Therefore, Since you were asleep, and therefore your conscious will was asleep, it could not have decided to wake you up. It must have been your unconscious that woke you up. An unconscious will is, by definition, a determined will.

"Zhi (Will) Consciousness (Hun) or 'conscious will' or 'willed will'"...rich

where does the chinese Yi fit into the above?
would zhi be awareness or intelligence without concentrating on any object
would yi be concentration? consciousness of an object?

Hi there innocent,

I am not satisfied with some of the very narrow definitions I find in philosophy texts. I think they are fine for starters, but I think that life is far more complex. I have never read a philosopher, other than Heraclitus, who discusses the nature of sleep, which occupies fully 1/3 of out lives.

When I am asleep things are happening. Last night I had a dream. It was without any sense of time, space, or continuity. Yet my mind was still considering it.

Lots of things happen in sleep. Maybe all remembering happens in sleep. In any case, Something wakes me up. I call this the Will. The Will that drives us to stay alive in physical form. It may be the same Will that creates birth. It is this Will, acting totally independently and without any outside influence, that I refer to. If you think about it tonight while sleeping, I think you may be as awed and fascinated at the process of awake/sleep/awake as I am. Think about it, one moment your here, the next moment you are THERE, and then the next moment you are "here" again.

Rich

Hi Rich,

Thanks for getting me to consider the mystery of transitioning to and from sleep; I have to ponder that some more.

The issue of determinism vs. free will matters so much because the way we view personal responsibility is totally dependant upon it. For example, one person is taught by his parents to not steal, and he doesn't steal. A second person is taught by his parent to steal, and he steals. Those who believe we humans have free wills will blame the second person for dutifully following the moral precept his parents taught him. Does that seem fair to you?

I am surprized quite a bit then, discovering that you are 57 years old and disagree that you are a reshuffle of the genetic material from your biological parents.

Anyway, one question. How much research have you done in the field of sleep, anyway? (I'd love to hear a very detailed answer, please)