0
   

What kind of Religious Experience would qualify as 'proof'?

 
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 02:45 am
@Greg phil,
"So now U say the Messiah is tardy ?
Or coming with the Tardiss ?
Can we get a warning First ?"

No,
No,
Yes. I will explain.
This is Second Coming prophesy:

The acts of the apostles: "1:11 Which also said,
Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN".

II Apostle Peter:
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY is with the Lord AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.

Gospel of Matthew:
16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and ON THE THIRD DAY BE RAISED.

What now millenium?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 04:23 am
@Marat phil,
Marat;143439 wrote:
"So now U say the Messiah is tardy ?
Or coming with the Tardiss ?
Can we get a warning First ?"

No,
No,
Yes. I will explain.
This is Second Coming prophesy:

The acts of the apostles: "1:11 Which also said,
Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER AS YE HAVE SEEN HIM GO INTO HEAVEN".

II Apostle Peter:
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that ONE DAY is with the Lord AS A THOUSAND YEARS, AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.

Gospel of Matthew:
16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and ON THE THIRD DAY BE RAISED.

What now millenium?


[CENTER]Jezus never claimed Himself to be raised by Death. He all-ways listened to His Mother and Saint Jusef. I do not see the Evangelic stories as "proof" but they might strenghten your opinion.

I read more Hermatic stuff than christian. I was raised in a Reformed Calvinistic Believe. Still believe in Jezus of Nazareth (nick-name of my village of my Youth); I guess I would be a Arianist if they were still around.

Without judging other Religions it is more easy to study them. And learn. I should call myself best a Humanistic Polygnostic. I study religions like U would languages and find we all (even over History) have common believes and expectations.
:shifty:
Pepijn Sweep, Magister i.o. UvA
[/CENTER]
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 09:42 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
my personal spiritual experiences are also a lot of synchronicity. Ordinary things appearing as unconvincing as mere coincidences. Reading personally into my experience. My guess is that we all have experiences that can be read as spiritual and convincing. Not proof to others as such, but even sharing and hearing other peoples similar attitudes to life and what happens to them is confirming in some way.

I really believe that you cannot notice profound aspects of life without being open to them. And the 'noticing' itself is a part of the message. For me its not all about understanding ..... that may come later. After feeling and noticing something going on in the first place.

For others that isn't enough. It has to be clearer.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 09:48 am
@Marat phil,
Marat;143404 wrote:
"Would you please give a example of your last post in laymans terms. Thanks, Reasoning Self Logic".

The atheist is held down by frameworks of scientific picture of the world. It means that such person trusts only to evidence facts. Scientific theory of God is not proved. Therefore atheist doesn't trust religion. This its right. Why not? Atheist always DOUBTS. Its good. Apostle Foma too doubted, but Jesus give him the proofs. Saint John said: "But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe ". This phrase sign: DOUBT is not sin.

If someone not search the bright proofs, its mission not scientific or philosophical search of true. It has deep subconscious motives (fanatic mother, priest's harassments {sharp examples}). The motivation of obsession person is irrational, it is in advance incited against religion. He hates it. This man is not atheist. Anticlericalist passible.


Thank you for the example you have given. I do seem to agree with most of what you have said. A scientific picture of the world does seem to influence us all. I have studied the bible more than any other subject that I have studied. I have been inspired by much of what I have read. I am sure that I can be wrong in my point of views at times. It may seem crazy but I give credit to the bible for opening my mind to reason.

There is a lot of wise information in the bible. It is where I get my view that men will come to deceive you.[ I do not think all men mean to do this on purpose it is just that they think, what they are saying is true] I know that I have told people things that I thought were true and come to find out later that I was wrong.
If it is possable for other relgions to have mistakes in there bibles then why would I think that my bible is 100% fact and no mythology? I think that mythology is so old and so deeply embedded in our culture.

If someone like Jesus or James The Just [who I respect above all] Wanted to share reason ethics and logic with us because they had such a great amount of love for all man kind, Would they have had to work within our frame of mind?
If they strayed to far from the way we see things to be, I think we would discredit them and call them lunatics and so forth. Maybe I am wrong but I think we can only handle a little of the truth at a time, It needs to be simple truth that we can relate to. [ We had many mythological gods and if Jesus was going to impress us would he have had to do something out of the unordinary? We may have beleived in some very crazy things back then. Or should I say today?] Do you think that if we were worshiping mythological gods, that we beleived had great mystical powers, Do you think that we would be people that would be easy to reason with?

If we went back in time 1000 years before Jesus do you think it would have been even harder to reason with those people?
Do you think that it may be easy for us to see the false in the mythology that people beleived many years ago and some people still beleive today? [If you answered yes], Could we not yet be able to see the false in our own mythology that we beleive to be fact today? :detective:
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 07:00 pm
@Greg phil,
you know, it is interesting, even if only from an anthropological viewpoint, to notice the difference between those who take notice of 'spiritual experience', and those who must always think in some kind of scriptural context. I am not criticizing one or the other, but I think it is a different kind of outlook.

I believe that protestantism, generally, and conventional western religion, will always disparage any idea of 'spiritual experience' UNLESS it is interptreted along strictly orthodox lines. So there are some 'experiences' or 'behaviours' which they will recognize - for example, 'speaking in tongues' or 'falling into rapture' while at an actual Church service. But spiritual experiences outside that context are usually characterised by protestantism as 'the devil's work' (except for in the case of unusually broad-minded representatives.)

I am someone who has had spiritual experiences, such as they have been, outside the context of 'churchianity'. The early experience of these were courtesy of what is now politely termed 'entheogens'. I subsequently managed, with some success, to replicate experiences of this type, although of lesser intensity, through meditation and contemplation. Indeed this has become a permanent feature of my outlook now.

So 'what qualifies as proof' for me, then? Well, the fact that I have overcome a slightly bi-polar disposition, constant restlessness and cravings, selfishness and addictive tendencies. I am by no stretch perfect, but the quality of my mental and emotional state has changed greatly through meditation over 20-30 years. Now is this 'religious'? Maybe, maybe not. I don't interpret it in the Biblical framework, that is for sure. The Buddhist view is different. It understands that there are 'levels of realisation'. I am probably on one of the lower one of them. But it is quite scientific, if you understand it and apply it properly. You can verify your level of realisation, with regards to the tradition, and to other practitioners, and the quality of your life experience moment to moment.
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 10:43 pm
@Greg phil,
"I believe that protestantism, generally, and conventional western religion, will always disparage any idea of 'spiritual experience' UNLESS it is interptreted along strictly orthodox lines. So there are some 'experiences' or 'behaviours' which they will recognize - for example, 'speaking in tongues' or 'falling into rapture' while at an actual Church service. But spiritual experiences outside that context are usually characterised by protestantism as 'the devil's work' (except for in the case of unusually broad-minded representatives.)"

The problem of individual spiritual experience consists that it can't be considered as the proof. Razor Okkama: "the principle recommends selection of the hypothesis that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities while still sufficiently answering the question". If the prophecy has come true also it has been documentary confirmed, there is question. How it is possible to know the future? If the prophet speaks that the source of its prophecy is God, that simple explanation of phenomenon will admit existence of God.

Example:

19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his
garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his
coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but
cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be
fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my
vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Think, why such trifle as any rags disturbed God at the moment of death? Why this insignificant detail was mentioned by ancient prophets?. I think, what is it metaphor. The clothes are Heritage of the Christ. Ancient prophets have predicted division the Heritage of the Christ on 4 parts. Most likely this Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism and... Islam ("Coat" is mentioned especially). This prophecy speaks about how all today's religions are aggressive, greedy and godless. This soldiers - is military nations of future far (now days).
rushchomsky
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 01:35 am
@Marat phil,
i dont have religous experiences i dont believe in god or spiratuality
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 02:24 am
@rushchomsky,
rushchomsky;143865 wrote:
i dont have religous experiences i dont believe in god or spiratuality


Try peyote... Porcini's soaked in vintage white port, with some truffel make a good sub-stitute. Lovely with sauerkraut and mashed or pressed potatoes.

Pepijn Sweep's Sophia's Kitchen

Any-way there's no quantifying proof, it's more an internal feeling of ease for me. I hope to share this. Which is hard, because people all-ways want more. Humans are easily under a spell; money, prestige etcetera

Pepijn Sweep's Mushrooms & Truffel
:shifty:
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 02:29 am
@rushchomsky,
rushchomsky;143865 wrote:
i dont have religous experiences i dont believe in god or spiratuality


ok great i'll remember that if we speak
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 02:39 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;143878 wrote:
ok great i'll remember that if we speak


Without believe in a god, god-ess, demi-gods or even the Spirit you can all-ways join a soccer-club, play bridge or go on a vacation.

A religieus experiment is not the top of the World. I remember better Times, but that's Personal.

4 Me it a religious exitement when people are friendly, orderly, well behaved and smiling a little smile all the day. Smile and be smiled:bigsmile:


[CENTER]PepI S;Hermes iii:lol:
[/CENTER]
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 08:29 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
there are degrees of proof and awareness of the spiritual world. For example i have recently reencountered a feeling of the presense of a spiritual being. I also have recently experienced a 'ghost' like phenomena. At the time i didn't know if it was intruders or the boiler making strange noises etc. So i now feel i missed a chance to recognise and be with a spirit.

But i am returning to that house tomorrow as it happens. If it occurs again then i will understand it as a spirit being that i have encountered before. But when i first came across it quite a few years ago, i likewise didn't understand what was happening. But then again ..... maybe i have missed a chance.

It is frightening, and i openly admit that fear was the main reason for not being at ease and therefore open with it. If i encounter it again then it will be a challenge of courage for me, and i honestly don't know whether i am up to it. The spirit world is frightening at times. Maybe this is another reason why many 'choose' not to be open to it.
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 08:52 am
@Greg phil,
What will change, if we find proofs?

Murders, violence and lie won't disappear. Gangs and their leaders won't lay down arms. Arabs and Jews won't conclude the peace treaty. I have doubt in necessity to continue searches. This is my conclusions:

1. The new testament is the book of very far future. People don't possess enough developed mentality (probably - telepathy) for
"Love" religions. Therefore it doesn't work.
2. The exact prophesy of the future can't change the future. All social and economic processes depend on the powerful reasons and influences. The knowledge of the future doesn't guarantee presence of Force and Will for its change.
3. The more the social group, the it - is more predicted. In the prophecy bible carry global scale. But separate people always have choice minimum of 2 ways of destiny.
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 10:32 am
@Marat phil,
[CENTER]:bigsmile:
I think we wouldn't be satified till God told US about birth, life, death and many more private Things. Why on Earth would a God be interested in responding these eternal Questions ?

Pepijn SH Sweep

Sometimes I believe God to be a Whale...Laughing
[/CENTER]
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:57 pm
@pagan,
pagan;143982 wrote:
The spirit world is frightening at times. Maybe this is another reason why many 'choose' not to be open to it.


Very true. My attitude is open-minded skeptic - I don't place stock in psychic phenomena, and am not particularly interested in them, but I believe that they occur. But then if you admit the possibility, then it opens the door to - well, what, exactly? A whole pandora's box of possibilities. This is why, I think, many anti-religious people and 'hard skeptics' try so hard to hermetically seal their minds against any such possibility at all. (Remember Carl Sagan's saying in The Dragon-Haunted World of not 'letting a divine foot in the door?')

Anyway - I guess this sounds superstitious - I have taken refuge, and am not too troubled by anything from that realm of being. I have powerful friends there.:bigsmile:
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 12:52 pm
@Greg phil,
"I think we wouldn't be satified till God told US about birth, life, death and many more private Things. Why on Earth would a God be interested in responding these eternal Questions ?"

I think about this. I studied the Bible to find out the scheme of mutual relations of people and God. I found one interesting fact. The initiator of contacts ALWAYS was God. It communicates with us only when something from us is necessary for IT (its politic with people is similar to politic of the USA with 3 world). In the old testament about it it is written. God it not space and not "all real". God is the Person. It is very rigid and never was the coward or the weakling. It - not the humanoid. But this racional person. Unpredictable, probably immortal and very dangerous. We develop reflexion programs extraterrastrial intrusions, but phenomenon of "God" - we ignore. It not scientifically. And what if God is extraterrestrial race or ancient machines fon Neumann's ?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 12:55 pm
@Marat phil,
Extacy 123456789
0 Replies
 
Marat phil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 01:22 pm
@Greg phil,
"Extacy 123456789"

What is it?
Pepijn Sweep
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 03:49 pm
@Marat phil,
counting 9 blessings
0 Replies
 
CharmingPhlsphr
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 06:32 pm
@Greg phil,
Greg;69444 wrote:
I've often suggested that the only valid proof of any particular religion will be a Religious Experience. And by this I do not mean a spiritual feeling in a group of religious people nor a sense of love in prayer which could both be identified as subconscious projections/delusions/illusions etcetara.
In fact almost any kind of religious experience that I can think of could be explained psychologically rather than in terms of a divinity. So I wonder whether there is any conceivable religious experience that would compell you to rationally believe in any particular notion of 'God'.

If it is argued that no such experience is conceivable then where does that leave religious believe in terms of its validity? I mean:
IF there is a concieveably valid religious experience THEN why should God not grant that to all of us (or any?)?
IF not THEN should we abandon a literal approach to religious beliefs? e.g. should God be understood (at best) as a regulative concept in an antirealist sense rather than the classic constitutive, realist, concept?


I have had that personal experience myself, wherein I was called to faith in Christ Jesus during an overnight shift at an adult video store while I watched men and women, through the security cameras, indulge in great degradation. After contemplating on this and the change which occurred, I discovered that the individual testimony of this revelation is only profoundly impacting to those who knew the individual's life before.

When I came to Jesus, my life took a complete turn-around. Within a few days after this significant event, those people that I ran with in drugs and violence said that they could see a light in my eyes that was never there before. One man, my neighbor of...sheesh...over six years credits his submission to Christ Jesus to the incredible change in my own life and our conversations afterward. We cannot explain fully why some have these events and others do not - Kierkegaard would argue that this event is preceded by a great period of darkness, from which one makes the leap to faith.
0 Replies
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 08:12 pm
@Greg phil,
there is a god, we just can't explain the things we feel because he is not in the reality we live in, he is not part of our systems, he is outside of it.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

How can we be sure? - Discussion by Raishu-tensho
Proof of nonexistence of free will - Discussion by litewave
Destroy My Belief System, Please! - Discussion by Thomas
Star Wars in Philosophy. - Discussion by Logicus
Existence of Everything. - Discussion by Logicus
Is it better to be feared or loved? - Discussion by Black King
Paradigm shifts - Question by Cyracuz
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 11/13/2024 at 09:21:29