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The US Dollar And The Stability Of The World Economy

 
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 01:23 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Ah so the allowed excesses of capitalism has nothing to do with its values but the excesses of communists has everything to do with moderate democratic socialism..Im so silly,i get it now..


Self-interest is a fact of human nature, and of nature in general. If you are indicted the free market on those grounds, the you are indicting the species. The fundemental reason that I oppose socialism, communism, fascism or any other form of collectivism is that those systems are all founded on the concept that the group is suiperior to the individual, and that the rights of the group trump those of the individual. That is a political concept; it is not a fact of human nature as is greed; it can be changed, unlike human nature. Therefore, it is rational to oppose collectivism because you oppose utilitarianism, but it is irrational to oppose the free market because you oppose greed, unless you also are opposed to humanity itself.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

xris wrote:
Ah now the act of desperation to conclude that your opponent is stupid and unable to conceive of his wonderful reasoning.Ethics , morality is not for sale, it is the aim of every right thinking human.I may not change man but i can hold a candle up to show him the way.


BrightNoon wrote:
I've presented my own views in addition to my criticism of your views, but you address neither and repeat the same montra


You're only proving my point to anyone who cares to look at this thread.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 01:29 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;61625 wrote:
unless you also are opposed to humanity itself.


I think many liberals are.

And this is not the socialism thread.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 01:46 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Self-interest is a fact of human nature, and of nature in general. If you are indicted the free market on those grounds, the you are indicting the species. The fundemental reason that I oppose socialism, communism, fascism or any other form of collectivism is that those systems are all founded on the concept that the group is suiperior to the individual, and that the rights of the group trump those of the individual. That is a political concept; it is not a fact of human nature as is greed; it can be changed, unlike human nature. Therefore, it is rational to oppose collectivism because you oppose utilitarianism, but it is irrational to oppose the free market because you oppose greed, unless you also are opposed to humanity itself.

---------- Post added at 03:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------





You're only proving my point to anyone who cares to look at this thread.
You assume again your opinions are superior to mine.How many times must i remind you that democratic moderate socialism has nought to do with communism?Is Norway extreme in its socialist ideas?I think you want a crusade, well carry your cross somewhere else and slay some other poor heathen.Was Mccarthy your grandfather?
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 01:54 pm
@xris,
xris;61631 wrote:
How many times must i remind you that democratic moderate socialism has nought to do with communism?


[CENTER]If you use that argument, you have to show that this is the case.
We have shown you that collectivism has different degrees, but there is no
inherent difference, differentiation or tipping point between the grades.[/CENTER]
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 02:02 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
[CENTER]If you use that argument, you have to show that this is the case.

We have shown you that collectivism has different degrees, but there is no

inherent difference, differentiation or tipping point between the grades.[/CENTER]
Go get a bike friend because your too near me.You have no intentions of understanding my view point and i have no further interest in informing you of my values in life.A big BYE BYE..
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 02:05 pm
@xris,
xris;61634 wrote:
Go get a bike friend because your too near me.You have no intentions of understanding my view point and i have no further interest in informing you of my values in life.A big BYE BYE..


But you are incorrect then, friend. I am not trying to be right. I want to figure out how to free people of this fallacy
And if that is impossible, well then we can only place your jewelery on the table before entering the gas chamber.
0 Replies
 
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 05:12 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Self-interest is a fact of human nature, and of nature in general. If you are indicted the free market on those grounds, the you are indicting the species. The fundemental reason that I oppose socialism, communism, fascism or any other form of collectivism is that those systems are all founded on the concept that the group is suiperior to the individual, and that the rights of the group trump those of the individual. That is a political concept; it is not a fact of human nature as is greed; it can be changed, unlike human nature. Therefore, it is rational to oppose collectivism because you oppose utilitarianism, but it is irrational to oppose the free market because you oppose greed, unless you also are opposed to humanity itself.


Brightnoon, what do you think of communism on a macro scale, and libertarianism on a micro scale?
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 05:22 pm
@Holiday20310401,
BrightNoon wrote:
Self-interest is a fact of human nature, and of nature in general. If you are indicted the free market on those grounds, the you are indicting the species.


Not necessarily. Greed is human nature, but so is generosity. By criticizing capitalism based on the greed factor, you are not indicting the species, but rather a particular tendency of the species. In essence, by criticizing capitalism for it's greed you are asserting that generosity is the better human trait to express than the human trait of greed.

BrightNoon wrote:
it is irrational to oppose the free market because you oppose greed, unless you also are opposed to humanity itself.


This presupposes that man cannot help but be greedy. But that is not true. Our species has the ability to cultivate greed or we can cultivate generosity. By opposing the free market because you oppose greed you are not opposing the species itself, but instead a trait that is common to the species. By opposing greed, and therefore the free market, you prefer some other human quality that can replace the quality of greed, namely, generosity and kindness. [/COLOR]
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 06:48 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Quote:
You assume again your opinions are superior to mine.How many times must i remind you that democratic moderate socialism has nought to do with communism?Is Norway extreme in its socialist ideas?I think you want a crusade, well carry your cross somewhere else and slay some other poor heathen.Was Mccarthy your grandfather?


How am I assuming that my opinions are superior to yours? I am presenting my view and offering my criticism of your view. That's how argumentation works. As for your other points, 1) socialism and communism vary only by degree; they share the principle that the group is more important than the individual. 2) Norway is a unique case, see my response in the other thread. In any case, even thought it 'works,' I am opposed to it on principle, as I believe in freedom. No my grandfather was not MacArthy. Are you pathologically incapable of addressing facts or arguing with logic? Can you do nothing but make what you think are clever quips?

Didymos Thomas wrote:
Not necessarily. Greed is human nature, but so is generosity. By criticizing capitalism based on the greed factor, you are not indicting the species, but rather a particular tendency of the species. In essence, by criticizing capitalism for it's greed you are asserting that generosity is the better human trait to express than the human trait of greed. This presupposes that man cannot help but be greedy. But that is not true. Our species has the ability to cultivate greed or we can cultivate generosity. By opposing the free market because you oppose greed you are not opposing the species itself, but instead a trait that is common to the species. By opposing greed, and therefore the free market, you prefer some other human quality that can replace the quality of greed, namely, generosity and kindness. [/color]


My point D.T. was that it is unfair to hold free markets responsible for greed. That's putting the cart before the horse. Whether or not we think human nature can be changed, there is currently a state of affairs such that almost all humans ultimately hold their own interests above those of others. Capitalism makes that productive, but in the absence of capitalism, it would still be there, unless of course individual freedom of choice and action was suppressed by force or government fiat, which I oppose in principle. Governments should not be in the business of dictating morality or constructing behavior. Historical attempts at such things have ended in tragedy.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 May, 2009 06:54 pm
@EmperorNero,
Quote:
socialism and communism vary only by degree
xris, if you want a differentiation to be acknowledged, you have to tell us what the difference is.
Tell us what makes socialism different from communism, where exactly goes the line?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 03:53 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
xris, if you want a differentiation to be acknowledged, you have to tell us what the difference is.
Tell us what makes socialism different from communism, where exactly goes the line?
Have you bought that bike yet?I have explained my objections to you calling socialism communism on several occasions and the reasons why.If you don't get it now you never will.Wickie modern socialism and read it before returning.Communism was a reaction to exploitation just like the french revolution, we now moderate our views to fit the situation.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 10:12 am
@xris,
How about we steer this ship back towards the original topic eh mates? I don't think there's much point in continuing this 'debate.' And anyway, what's being said here is basically a duplicate of what's in the socialism thread. Capitalist pigs and pinkos, let's move our fight there.

Did you watch any of those videos yet EmperorNero? If so, I'd love to get your opinion.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 10:16 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;61752 wrote:
How about we steer this ship back towards the original topic eh mates? I don't think there's much point in continuing this 'debate.' And anyway, what's being said here is basically a duplicate of what's in the socialism thread. Capitalist pigs and pinkos, let's move our fight there.


I did. I moved my last response to the socialism thread.

BrightNoon;61752 wrote:
Did you watch any of those videos yet EmperorNero? If so, I'd love to get your opinion.


I watched the one of the KGB agent. It convinced me that the soviets infiltrated the education system and indoctrinated a generation of educators in the free world. Which now perpetuates itself even the soviets are gone.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 May, 2009 10:28 am
@EmperorNero,
Yea that video's pretty amazing. If I said exactly what Uri said most people would think I'm a nut, but when you watch it, its obvious that he's the real deal and knows what he's talking about. The other good interview is with Norman Dodds, I'd watch that one next if you get a chance. He talks about the relation of the American elite, espeically the bankers, to the Soviet Union and their opinion of communism in general. You guessed it, they support communism.:whistling:

---------- Post added at 12:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:28 PM ----------

Holiday20310401 wrote:
Brightnoon, what do you think of communism on a macro scale, and libertarianism on a micro scale?


I want to move this issue to the socialism thread, but I'll just respond quick here. If you respond to me, please put it in the other thread. Anyhow, I don't know what my opinion is of that. I never thought about it. I am basically in favor of libertarianism on every scale, within the framework of a federated, constitutional republic. I think maybe I need yoy to explain what you mean exactly.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 07:10 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon, why does the government bail out/take over the auto companies?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 10:06 am
@EmperorNero,
We cannot know the mind of Him...haha. No, I can't really say with certainty, but I would make the following educated guess: to further reduce the industrial capacity of the U.S and keep our creditors happy. That sounds paradoxical I know; isn't the government saving General Motors? Not really, G.M.'s principal assets are being bought by entities in Brazil, China and Europe. In other words, the public money invested in GM will not be used to allow plants to remain open here, but rather to finance their move out of the country. This is not an isolated incident either. As we spiral farther downwards towards insolvency, the government will sell off more and more of the national infrastructure and/or newly nationalized companies to foreign creditor nations to keep them happy (or at least not fighting mad) and buying our debt. By the time this is over, I expect China will own every major dock facility on the west coast, amoung other things. Do you remember the 'Dubai ports deal' that caused such a furor last year? The U.A.E. is a major creditor of ours. Recently, we sold Dubai modern nuclear technology; why? In order to persuade them not to join the proposed Gulf monetary union, which would operate like the E.U. and have its own currency, the arab dinar. Keeping oil priced in dollars is THE primary goal of our middle eastern policy. I'm rambling, hope that helped.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 11:45 am
@EmperorNero,
Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

On the general 'buying debt' issue, wouldn't European and Asian countries be better off by keeping on borrowing the to US rather than having the entire word economy crumble?
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Jun, 2009 01:53 pm
@EmperorNero,
I'm sure the Chinese and the Arabs are debating that question right now, but it's not that simple of a choice. Yes, if those nations stopped buying our debt, government and private, the current world economic system (and balance of power) would crumble. However, that does not mean that the world itself will collapse; i.e. after the initial shock, the productive parts of the world will probably recover fairly rapidly, while America is torn apart by any one or a combination of the disasters of hyperinflation, mass unemployment, rioting, perhaps even civil war. There's a great metaphor from Peter Schiff on exactlt this 'decoupling.' There are these nine guys stranded on an island; eight of them are asian, one is an american. They decide the divy up the work. One of the asian guys gets the job of cutting firewood, another fishes, another hunts, and so on. The American gets the job of eating the feast that the asians prepare for him everyday, leaving just enough crumbs to keep them working. Kenysian lunatics would say that the American is the key to whole island economy, because without him there would be no demand for the feast and the asians would be out fo work. However, if the American suddenly vanished, the asians could eat the feast themselves and vastly improve their standard of living. In other words, the loss of the 'mighty american consumer' would cause a reorganization and a severe crisis in the world system, but it would only end badly for America. The rest of the world, primarily Asia, would simply start consuming domesticall what it had been producing for export. And of course that is exactly what the Chinese are trying to do now. I think they expected this to become neccessary eventually, but weren't expecting this crisis to come so soon. We consume 90% of the world's savings...that simply cannot continue, and the longer this system creaks along the worse the final collapse will be.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 06:59 am
@BrightNoon,
Initially the problem was created by corporate business requiring bigger and bigger profits. By moving their production base abroad they initiated the inevitable decline of manufacturing in the us and also my country the uk.We are still seeing it on a weekly basis, companies moving manufacturing to places like Poland.In the last month i would say we have seen six major players leave the area.It threatens the common market unity and if it is not resolved i can see the uk leaving.Humanity can adapt but the upheaval will be felt for centuries.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Jun, 2009 06:04 pm
@xris,
All true, but its not the whole story. The questions begging for answers are WHY do the international corporations require exponential growth to prevent collapse under their own weight; WHY have they been exporting jobs to third world nations. The short answer, not to beat a dead horse, is inflation; the long answer is as follows. The entire 19th century was deflationairy, in that prices for consumer goods more or less constantly fell due to increasing production efficiency. This trend stopped and reversed as a result of the Federal Reserve's deliberately inflationairy policies. Rather than allow demand to grow as a result of falling prices, they decided it would be preferable to increase demand by raising wages, causing the cost of living to increase. This process also had the effect of burdening everyone, including the major corporations, with ever-growing debt. Once started, the system not only cannot stop, it has to constantly accelerate; the inflation creates debt, which can only be serviced by ever more inflation. The result of all this is that 1) the corporations require exponentially growing profits and 2) American labor became so expensive that, in order to maintain those profits, the corporations had to export jobs overseas.
0 Replies
 
 

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