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Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:39 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
I didn't say that. i only compared the debating style.

The fact remains that you are unwilling to accept facts that were put before you through this thread, by me and others.
You are entertaining me tonight..A bottle of RED wine and your conversation is so exciting..Convince me of what? that your ideology is moral and mine is corrupt.I dont think so..
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:40 pm
@xris,
xris;61017 wrote:
You are entertaining me tonight..A bottle of RED wine and your conversation is so exciting..Convince me of what? that your ideology is moral and mine is corrupt.I dont think so..


That the failures of capitalism are caused by socialism.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:48 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
That the failures of capitalism are caused by socialism.
The failures of socialism is caused by capitalism..The knee bones connected to the thigh bone ,so hear the word of the lord.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:53 pm
@EmperorNero,
I invite you to refute my explanation of the present crisis, in which I placed blame on government intervention. What you don't realize is that greed is a fact of human nature. No revolution will ever change that. To begin your counter-proposal to free market capitalism with the suggestion that we should abolish greed makes that proposal hopelessly unrealistic. The question is not whether or not we can create a system that will eliminate greed, but what system works best in an atmosphere of greed. That system is capitalism, in which greed is actually helpful and productive. People tend not to do things, and so things tend not to get done (inventions, improvements, etc.) when they have nothing to gain personally.

You are blaming capitalism for the corruption of capitalism. I understand your argument that in a capitalist system, wealth tends to accumulate in a few hands, but power does not have to follow. Only the corruption of the free market and of the American constitution could enable political power be concentrated in the hands of financial oligarchs. Only via government intervention can such corruption occur. J.P. Morgan could not have gained political power by using his vast wealth to build an army and force people to use only his companies. He could however take advantage of a popular desire to 'regulate' the banking sector and ensure that it was 'regulated' to his advantage and to the disadvantage of his competitors. This is exactly what has happened. Government intervention in the market is always needed for a company or a bank to form a monopoly and pervert the market to its own advantages. If the government is granted the power to intervene in the market, it will intervene on behalf of whoever pays it the most. In other words, capitalism does not cause disaster and corruption; government interference with capitalism does.

Fascism isn't limited to what happened in Italy and Germany. Fascism basically means the rule of an authoritarian government on behalf of business (certain businesses): the merger of government and business. In practice we have a democracy dominated by two parties both owned lock, stock and barrel by the same special interests. The government puts into place socialist policies that they say are in the interest of the people, when in fact they are serving their private masters. What you don't realize is that the free market isn't pro-business; no specific companies are given any advantage. A monopolistic system, with government granted advantage over competition, is good for certain businesses. Why is it that the congressman and president's most opposed to corruption and greed in the free market, and who regulate the most, are also the ones who receive the most contributions from the very companies they regulate, and who fill their staff with their lobbyists? Socialism is always a vehicle for the ambitions of whichever company or cartel of companies is in control of the government. Yes, the government is always corruptible, but if we don't grant government any powers of intervention, the would-be-corrupters have no favors to buy.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:56 pm
@EmperorNero,
At this point, I would like to see some corroboration to xris's repeated claims that he is a socialist.

I would lay one hundred dollars down that I am closer to a socialist than he is. You are, in practicality, a capitalist with reservations.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 01:57 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;61024 wrote:
At this point, I would like to see some corroboration to xris's repeated claims that he is a socialist.

I would lay one hundred dollars down that I am closer to a socialist than he is. You are, in practicality, a capitalist with reservations.


Yeah. I'm more of a socialist than him as well.
As I noted earlier, he doesn't agree with the word, but he does with what's behind it.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 02:08 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
At this point, I would like to see some corroboration to xris's repeated claims that he is a socialist.

I would lay one hundred dollars down that I am closer to a socialist than he is. You are, in practicality, a capitalist with reservations.
If you want to be more socialist than me brother, welcome to the meeting and rest your red flag on the shelf.If you have followed the debate im sure you can work out how far left i am.Is that a failing to have certain reservations about full scale socialism? I'm a pragmatist , i know mans limitations in moral acquisitions.

---------- Post added at 03:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 PM ----------

EmperorNero wrote:
Yeah. I'm more of a socialist than him as well.
As I noted earlier, he doesn't agree with the word, but he does with what's behind it.
describe your socialism? is it left of bush or Attila the Hun ?
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 03:01 pm
@xris,
Would screaming "get a room!" help end this thread? I really doubt there is a credible socialist yardstick.
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 03:25 pm
@EmperorNero,
Well I have a socialist tape measure right here...

Pretty much everyone is a socialist to some degree in various ways.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 03:31 pm
@EmperorNero,
What?

Edit: Okay.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 03:58 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
Would screaming "get a room!" help end this thread? I really doubt there is a credible socialist yardstick.


Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks
Ultracrepidarian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 2 May, 2009 07:18 pm
@EmperorNero,
Why do you say you see Capitalism as having as much potential for damage as Socialism?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 May, 2009 03:34 am
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks
I will never deny my social views of politics, if someone demands they ask my politics i will tell them im a socialist.I would never vote for a capitalist party, never.Its not their individual policies but their politics even though we need enterprising people and free trade.
The core values are different and when i look at any right wing party they scare the pants off me.I am prejudiced but only by experience and by their rhetoric speech's.
Ultracrepidarian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 09:14 am
@xris,
How are a capitalist's core values different?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 09:42 am
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian wrote:
How are a capitalist's core values different?
The moral issues appear to be forgotten when i see capitalism being administered.Profit at any cost or any way.It makes good men leave their values at home.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 10:26 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Well I have a socialist tape measure right here...

Pretty much everyone is a socialist to some degree in various ways.


C'mon, you've read the literature, you have studied political philosophy. I know you can tell what is socialist and what is not.
0 Replies
 
Ultracrepidarian
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 10:26 am
@xris,
Profit at all costs and with no regard for morals? That is not a value of Capitalism, much less at the core. Who would adhere to a political philosophy that espoused material gain by any means and in disregard to morality? Nihilistic thugs, murderers, and thieves. Capitalism is a political philosophy, at the heart of which, is an idea of a government which recognizes individual right to life as opposed to collective rights. One shouldn't confuse a Capitalist's philosophy with a criminal's lack of morality. It's not fair, to say the least.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 10:37 am
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Here, here (of course, by posting I've just pushed the thread one more tick - sorry bout that). Still, I've never understood the malevolence behind this or that political or economic label. If it makes sense; if it's the right thing to do at the right time, who cares what label it might bear?

I've voted democrat as often as I've voted republican and abhor the schism those two labels have wrought. From the personality analysis and viewpoint surveys I've taken, I'm about as liberal as I am conservative. Similarly, I see capitalism as having as much potential for damage as socialism. So... why do we hang our hats on these labels and defend them to the death?

Any idea, decision or concept should be thought through to its logical permutation; weighing the likely benefits against the likely negative effects. The instant we carry the banner of "this" or "that" orientation, we don horse-blinders; and inevitably miss solutions/opportunities for the prejudice we carry.

Thanks


As soon as you can compromise your true opinions on what you consider to be just and fair, I will cease to think of you as a human.

I don't carry political labels well myself. I am an anarchist who believes in private property but fully supports and believes in the future of community based collective action in land, credit, and production. Its an amalgamation somewhere near mutualism but I completely reject mutualism's economics.

To most anarchists, I am considered an ancap, but I am likely the best ancap a left anarchist has ever seen.

The thing is, I cannot help but greet political opinions and especially actions, that violate what I consider just and fair with anything but malevolence. I abhor injustice.

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.

In the end, it simply irks me that someone would claim the moral high ground of socialism to offer up opinions that are morally reprehensible to me.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 10:43 am
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power;61252 wrote:

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.


Interesting. I think I agree. How would that work in todays reality? It would mace companies impossible, right?
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2009 12:23 pm
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian wrote:
Profit at all costs and with no regard for morals? That is not a value of Capitalism, much less at the core. Who would adhere to a political philosophy that espoused material gain by any means and in disregard to morality? Nihilistic thugs, murderers, and thieves. Capitalism is a political philosophy, at the heart of which, is an idea of a government which recognizes individual right to life as opposed to collective rights. One shouldn't confuse a Capitalist's philosophy with a criminal's lack of morality. It's not fair, to say the least.
Its principles are displayed in its achievements, just look at them and the results are seen every where.Corporate bodies are their highest achievement and they will willingly destroy for profit.The cigarette companies are a prime example.International companies like Nestles and others act like morals are obstructions to profits.Oil companies use any means at their disposal to advance its share of the market.Ignore democratic demands by the citizens and will sit down with the devil for the next million barrels of crude.Bandits come in many disguises and only the product distinguishes one from the other.

---------- Post added at 01:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
As soon as you can compromise your true opinions on what you consider to be just and fair, I will cease to think of you as a human.

I don't carry political labels well myself. I am an anarchist who believes in private property but fully supports and believes in the future of community based collective action in land, credit, and production. Its an amalgamation somewhere near mutualism but I completely reject mutualism's economics.

To most anarchists, I am considered an ancap, but I am likely the best ancap a left anarchist has ever seen.

The thing is, I cannot help but greet political opinions and especially actions, that violate what I consider just and fair with anything but malevolence. I abhor injustice.

Ultimately, socialism is a reaction to the excesses of capitalism to return to the laborer the full fruits of his labor. This is the utmost in economic justice, and anything less than this optimal is slavery.

In the end, it simply irks me that someone would claim the moral high ground of socialism to offer up opinions that are morally reprehensible to me.
well sir your dog eat dog world of the best survives and the lowest are left to starve is my idea of the worst form of civilisation man could conceive of.It makes no consideration of the weak the disabled or the mentally ill.It admires the best and condemns the least.Yes i do take the high road and you can not deny it.We left Anarchy behind when we deserted tribalism and made friends with our neighbours.
 

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