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Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

 
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 11:18 am
@EmperorNero,
I agree. When the autonomous states of America founded the federal government of the Unites States, the federal government had few objectives. Why would it? All matters were solved on state level. At first they were one country only on paper.
George Washington had little to do in the first 9 months of his presidency.
What happened? The federal government took over the debt, the individual states had accumulated during the revolution. Now there was a reason to demand federal taxes. It was the federal government taking over government objectives from the states. And from there it went.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 11:52 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
The ideal of socialism differs greatly from the practice. No, I don't mean that in the sense that all ideals fall short in an imperfect world. I mean that, while you may be fed visions of a 'worker's paradise,' that is not what the most influential supporters of socialism have in mind. The greatest friends of socialism and communism have always been the financiers, bankers, and international corporations. Why? J.P Morgan once said, "competition is a sin." The free market is good for everyone and all businesses on average, but a monopoly via central planning is best for whichever companies control the monopoly. For example, the Russian revolution from funded by western banks at the same time that the governments of western europe and U.S. were publicly denouncing Bolsheviks. Without subsequent decades of lending to the Soviet Union, it would have collapsed much sooner. Are you familiar with the various 19th century societies in which workers lived in a planned town built, owned and operated by their employers? The workers would earn wages just like any others, but they spent their money in the company store, or on company housing, or at the company theatre, or the company hospital. In effect, this is a feudal system, under which workers do not really sell their labour, but work the lord's land or factory in exhange for the neccessities of life. This is what the people behind the socialist movement, who funded and financed it apparently against their own interests, had in mind. To understand the socialism/capitalism dichotomy you really have to take a long historical view. Before the rise of free market capitlism, there was a more or less feudal system, a system of authoritarian control in one manner or the other, far back into time. In the 18th century, via the free market, the common man for the first time was free and truly controlled his own destiny. Free-market capitalism developed in tanden, naturally, with democracy in various forms. These changes were anathema to the ruling class, which, like any ruling class at any point in history, wants primarily to maintain its power. However, they could do nothing about it directly; the power of the free market and democracy is too great to be reversed by the order of some king or noble. Collectivism, in whatever form, is the solution; it is a means by which the rights of individuals can be abolished in the name of serving the common good. Of course, the rulers determine what best serves the common good. Socialism is not progress toward some ideal, but regression toward feudalism, directed by the ruling class. Think about it.
Its a view of socialism i dont agree with.Once again the excesses of socialism ,communism, is held up as an example.Democratic socialism is nothing like the narrow dogmatic approach communist tried.When ideals are given of the objectives the worst examples of socialism are wheeled out as examples, when i point out the failings of capitalism they are poo pooed as hiccups in a worthy cause.
Id rather the ideas i point out be questioned than the red mist of past fascist regimes.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 12:20 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Its a view of socialism i dont agree with.Once again the excesses of socialism ,communism, is held up as an example.Democratic socialism is nothing like the narrow dogmatic approach communist tried.When ideals are given of the objectives the worst examples of socialism are wheeled out as examples, when i point out the failings of capitalism they are poo pooed as hiccups in a worthy cause.
Id rather the ideas i point out be questioned than the red mist of past fascist regimes.


Socialism and communism are the same, its just a matter of method. Socialists are gradualists or Fabians; communists are revolutionairies. I didn't focus much on the horrors of the Soviet system, or Mao's China or Pol Pot, etc. I realize that European socialism or American socialism are a far cry from those historical examples, but my point is that socialism as it exists now in the major western nations is not a static thing. It is progressive. We are moving in a direction towards something more evidently authoritarian, and the pace is accelerating. Do you realize that the corporations and banks that benfit the most from 'socialism' are the same entities whose lobbyists or forrmer employees fill all the important posts in government and lobby for government intervention and control? Why is that I wonder...:whistling:

Socialism is not what you rhink it is. Yes, the government controls the economy in socialism, but the question is, who controls the government? Those are the people who support socialism and who are driving the socialist agenda, and always have.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 01:39 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Socialism and communism are the same, its just a matter of method. Socialists are gradualists or Fabians; communists are revolutionairies. I didn't focus much on the horrors of the Soviet system, or Mao's China or Pol Pot, etc. I realize that European socialism or American socialism are a far cry from those historical examples, but my point is that socialism as it exists now in the major western nations is not a static thing. It is progressive. We are moving in a direction towards something more evidently authoritarian, and the pace is accelerating. Do you realize that the corporations and banks that benfit the most from 'socialism' are the same entities whose lobbyists or forrmer employees fill all the important posts in government and lobby for government intervention and control? Why is that I wonder...:whistling:

Socialism is not what you rhink it is. Yes, the government controls the economy in socialism, but the question is, who controls the government? Those are the people who support socialism and who are driving the socialist agenda, and always have.
Control of the banking system by moguls is not prerogative of socialism .It is requisite for capitalism but not socialism.Individual failures of government do not take away from the core beliefs of socialism.When men who control our money supply are eliminated we might have a chance.Hitler with all his power was in debt and was manipulated by Swiss bankers.Don't confuse weakness with ideals.I still see the ideals of socialism as the true cause of every freeman and the elimination of power through strength not justice.Come the real revolution brother....
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 01:56 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Control of the banking system by moguls is not prerogative of socialism .It is requisite for capitalism but not socialism.Individual failures of government do not take away from the core beliefs of socialism.When men who control our money supply are eliminated we might have a chance.Hitler with all his power was in debt and was manipulated by Swiss bankers.Don't confuse weakness with ideals.I still see the ideals of socialism as the true cause of every freeman and the elimination of power through strength not justice.Come the real revolution brother....


Monopolistic control of the monetary system by private interests is not requisite in free market capitalism; it is in fact absolutlely antithetical to the free market. You will have your revolution soon enough, but I don't think it'll be to your liking.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 02:09 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Monopolistic control of the monetary system by private interests is not requisite in free market capitalism; it is in fact absolutlely antithetical to the free market. You will have your revolution soon enough, but I don't think it'll be to your liking.
It may not be but it is the case, it has destroyed our economies and attempts to cover its tracks with new shippp paper money..It is a result of capitalism that we see this sickening distortion of the real economy and the unrealistic demands it makes on our societies. Capitalism demands constant growth the earth and its inhabitants can not sustain, with capitalism we are all doomed.Revolution is always better than the status quo, bring it on.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 02:32 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
It may not be but it is the case, it has destroyed our economies and attempts to cover its tracks with new shippp paper money..It is a result of capitalism that we see this sickening distortion of the real economy and the unrealistic demands it makes on our societies. Capitalism demands constant growth the earth and its inhabitants can not sustain, with capitalism we are all doomed.Revolution is always better than the status quo, bring it on.


If an inflationairy monetary system in private hands is not a part of capitalism, how can you blame capitalism for the ills of an inflationairy monetary system? Non sequitur. Our constant boom and bust is the result, not of the free market as the talking heads would have you believe, but of the credit cycle: i.e. the periodic expansion and contraction of credit by the central bank. Manipulation of interest rates is THE most important reason for the loss of manufacturing in the U.S., the stagnation of wages, etc. Artifically low interest rates encourage risk and malivestment. Every bust is actually an attempt by the 'invisible hand,' i.e. the physical reality of the economy, to correct imbalances, such as investment in derivative products based on mortgages during a housing boom. Every time the government intervenes with stimulus, or the central bank lowers interest rates or acts as the 'lender of last resort' is prevents that correction and in fact increases the magnitude of the imbalances. O, so government intervention prevents downturns, that good. Wrong, its only DELAYS downturns. At some point there is too much debt, too much pent-up inflation and too much inefficiency for the economy to reinflate, no matter how much money the government spends or the central bank lends. Instead of experiencing minor recessions periodically, as are bound to occur, and which actually increase efficiency and prosperity by selection of the fittest, we are going to experience, when the point of no return arrives, all the cumulative damage at once, magnified. In other words, it is a giant Ponzi scheme. My point is that all the ills you attribute to capitalism are not inevitable consequences of a free market, but rather the inevitable consequences of central planning by the government, in coordination with the banks and corporations that control the government. It is fascism that you don't like, not capitalism. And I agree with that sentiment. Permanent growth is also not reqiuired by capitalism, at least not permanent expansion of physical infrastructure, consumption, etc. The insane and insustainable growth in certain areas of the economy, such as consumption, is the result of government central planning. An inflationairy system encourages spending and discourages savings. Essentially, via central planning, we have been able to live above our means and borrow from imagined future prosperity: which won't arrive to save us because of those very policies, which create inefficiency. The only thing that constantly increases in a free market system, with periodioc interuptions of course, is efficiency, at whatever task is needed by members of society. Whether a socialist, communist, or capitalist system, all economies are based on the free market. We have to start with that; it is like a fact of nature. The only question is how that natural process of supply/demand and exhange can be perverted or manipulated, and can a government make decisions about the needs of society better than the society itself, as expressed by the functioning of the natural market. To believe that the government can do this, allocate resources more efficiently than the free market, is founded on two enormous and, IMO, insane asumptions; 1) the government's bureaucrats, sitting in some office building with mountains of statistical data, are better capable of determining and balancing the needs and abilities of the national economy than the economy itself, which is a manifestation of the those needs in reality; 2) the government is benevolent and objective, and never would manipulate the economy to the advantage of special interests. I don't find either of those assumptions at all realistic.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 24 Apr, 2009 04:12 pm
@EmperorNero,
Yes, very true. Great post. In other words: The failures of capitalism are caused by collectivism.
The whole purpose of socialism is interrupting the free market economy, in order to blame the deficiencies on the "internal contradictions" of capitalism. The goal is stealthily introducing Marxism.

Who wants that? Utopian soft-headed professors, who never had a real job in their life and rather live of the productivity of others. They never had to work for anything in their life, so they live in a fantasy world of theory, where they have come to believe that communism can actually work. They think because they got an education and can repeat facts like parrots, they are somehow intelligent. They are only intelligent and educated enough to sway the public in their direction with short-sighted appeals to emotion and prejudge. And don't forget good old soviet style propaganda tactics.

The education system is in the firm grip of liberal propaganda. Which is why young people are lefties, and become more conservative as they deal with the real world. Study.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:56 am
@EmperorNero,
Some very good propaganda in the last two posts but only to be consumed by the faithful.Capitalism has a sickness that is a result of its genes, it will always result in individual greed being the deciding factor.
It cant help itself, you cant have moral standards that say the fittest survives and not expect these occurrences.
The banking system failure is a result of capitalism, those who wield the power by the accumulation of wealth control the economy and governments.The strangle hold is secure.Only a ground swell of revolt against this endemic sickness will change the status quo.
The problem for change in opinions,is it is constantly supported by the media.The media is or in part ,part of the power structure that convinces the populace that capitalism is the only route society can take.It criticises the sickness but not the cause and by its nature will never take a abstract view of the nature of the system that we have all grown to accept.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 05:48 am
@xris,
xris;59863 wrote:
Some very good propaganda in the last two posts but only to be consumed by the faithful.


The other sides propaganda got to you first.

xris;59863 wrote:
Capitalism has a sickness that is a result of its genes, it will always result in individual greed being the deciding factor.
It cant help itself, you cant have moral standards that say the fittest survives and not expect these occurrences.
The banking system failure is a result of capitalism, those who wield the power by the accumulation of wealth control the economy and governments.The strangle hold is secure.Only a ground swell of revolt against this endemic sickness will change the status quo.


You have to struggle through that last long post by BrightNoon, seriously.
It explains it all. Don't reset the debate to generalizations again, dispute specific points. If you chose to believe in a conclusion, that is not supported by facts, that's called faith.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 06:07 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
The other sides propaganda got to you first.



You have to struggle through that last long post by BrightNoon, seriously.
It explains it all. Don't reset the debate to generalizations again, dispute specific points. If you chose to believe in a conclusion, that is not supported by facts, that's called faith.
Ive never been convinced of propaganda, its life's experiences that have formed my opinions and the facts that are laid out for all to observe.
I have read brightnoons post three times and it only speaks of sickness in the system, not the core beliefs that caused these events.
i could be speaking from a point in time when communist system failed and the results that manifested themselves.We are observing the weaknesses of a totally free economy not the ethics that caused it nor the crucially nasty medicine we should be taking.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 06:19 am
@EmperorNero,
OK. What's the first untrue statement in that post?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 06:23 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
OK. What's the first untrue statement in that post?
That its fascism that's at fault not capitalism..
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 07:15 am
@xris,
xris;59788 wrote:
Individual failures of government do not take away from the core beliefs of socialism.


What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 07:18 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?
So what about my reply to your question?did that not warrant a response?

---------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------

EmperorNero wrote:
What if it is inevitable? What if that's just what's going to happen?
How can you assume a positive theoretical outcome when the contrary has been shown in every example?
Every example? when did democratic socialism fail so badly in comparison to what we are seeing now? Not communism remember.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 07:24 am
@xris,
xris;59876 wrote:
That its fascism that's at fault not capitalism..


BrightNoon;59796 wrote:
If an inflationairy monetary system in private hands is not a part of capitalism, how can you blame capitalism for the ills of an inflationairy monetary system? Non sequitur. Our constant boom and bust is the result, not of the free market as the talking heads would have you believe, but of the credit cycle: i.e. the periodic expansion and contraction of credit by the central bank. Manipulation of interest rates is THE most important reason for the loss of manufacturing in the U.S., the stagnation of wages, etc. Artifically low interest rates encourage risk and malivestment. Every bust is actually an attempt by the 'invisible hand,' i.e. the physical reality of the economy, to correct imbalances, such as investment in derivative products based on mortgages during a housing boom. Every time the government intervenes with stimulus, or the central bank lowers interest rates or acts as the 'lender of last resort' is prevents that correction and in fact increases the magnitude of the imbalances. O, so government intervention prevents downturns, that good. Wrong, its only DELAYS downturns. At some point there is too much debt, too much pent-up inflation and too much inefficiency for the economy to reinflate, no matter how much money the government spends or the central bank lends. Instead of experiencing minor recessions periodically, as are bound to occur, and which actually increase efficiency and prosperity by selection of the fittest, we are going to experience, when the point of no return arrives, all the cumulative damage at once, magnified. In other words, it is a giant Ponzi scheme. My point is that all the ills you attribute to capitalism are not inevitable consequences of a free market, but rather the inevitable consequences of central planning by the government, in coordination with the banks and corporations that control the government. It is fascism that you don't like, not capitalism.


fascism - A political philosophy or movement that exalts nation above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government and severe economic and social regimentation.

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

xris;59886 wrote:
Every example? when did democratic socialism fail so badly in comparison to what we are seeing now? Not communism remember.


If you declare socialism to be something else, you should define what it is. Name an example where it succeeded.

---------- Post added at 05:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------

What you are saying, is that it's not the intervention in the functioning of capitalism, but capitalism itself, that cause the extreme boom and busts in capitalist economies.
As Mr. Fight the power explained, a free (as in only regulating fraud) market economy will find a natural point of stability. Intervention is what creates phases of boom, that usually are followed by phases of bust.

A capitalist economy will have cycles of mild up and down. A bit as the mood of every human being. Intervening in times of down, is like taking a bunch of mood pills, it will only delay and intensify the next down. At some point even the mood pills won't help any more, and you have a crash. The solution is not intervening and letting the mild cycles play out.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 10:07 am
@EmperorNero,
I dont need to be told the definition of fascism,the fault i spotted was that fascism was responsible for this recent crisis.How can a democratic republican government suddenly be called fascist..I should be claiming that not you or your comrade.
Norway is good example of a modern democratic socialist party.
This recent crisis the worst in modern history can be laid at the feet of rampant capitalist agenda.Greed beyond bounds, uncontrolled free market gluttony.I understand economies have ups and downs at the mercy of political instability within a free and i mean a free not restrictive international market.This is not what we are experiencing its the inability to recognise that capitalism encourages rampant greed, if not tamed it self destructs.
I dont want communism or any inconsiderate left minded stupidity, i can assure i fought them on more than one occasion,but an ethical moral social form of government encouraged by the voter not forced on the voter.We all need to revisit our moral values and duties to our fellow man.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:01 am
@xris,
xris;59899 wrote:
Norway is good example of a modern democratic socialist party.


Norway is in a special situation because of a tiny, tiny, heterogeneous population and rich natural resources. Also their geographic position and the benefit of barely having any military cost, because the United States takes that over for them, factor in. Norway no representative example, it functions despite socialism, bot because of socialism.
Besides that, Norway is going down hill as the rest of Europe.

It's not that nations are affluent because they are socialist. They are socialist because they are affluent. Life in prosperous nations is comfortable, being comfortable, leads to being detached from reality.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:19 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero wrote:
Norway is in a special situation because of a tiny, tiny, heterogeneous population and rich natural resources. Also their geographic position and the benefit of barely having any military cost, because the United States takes that over for them, factor in. Norway no representative example, it functions despite socialism, bot because of socialism.
Besides that, Norway is going down hill as the rest of Europe.

It's not that nations are affluent because they are socialist. They are socialist because they are affluent. Life in prosperous nations is comfortable, being comfortable, leads to being detached from reality.
You fail to realise the motives of socialism, its not the rampant desire to be better than your neighbour.International socialism recognises that winning is not the priority but common needs and community are the essence of morality.Keep your boom and bust, mega rich , mega poor.
So what wonderful state will you bring forth as a golden example of capitalism? i shudder in anticipation.
I pointed to my countries assets introduced by socialism now you show me yours.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 11:47 am
@xris,
xris;59904 wrote:
You fail to realise the motives of socialism, its not the rampant desire to be better than your neighbour.International socialism recognises that winning is not the priority but common needs and community are the essence of morality.Keep your boom and bust, mega rich , mega poor.
So what wonderful state will you bring forth as a golden example of capitalism? i shudder in anticipation.
I pointed to my countries assets introduced by socialism now you show me yours.


I get it. You're a idealist. I'm not saying you're a communist, you made quite clear that you're not. But that's what communists always say. We should all work for the common good instead of our own good.
It's just not going to happen.

How about western civilization after world war 2? The greatest prosperity and freedom for the most people in the history of humanity.
And you pointed out one bad example. The fact is that the example of Norway can't be copied to other nations. Norway has a population of 4.8 million, they're all white and have a bunch of natural resources.
 

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