Socialism (Moved from Grapes of Wrath)

I'm left of centre but I want change. I don't like governments being influenced by unfair means. I don't want the individuals rights threatened by the multitude but want security for each every one.

Yes, those are the original definitions of the words. But that seems kind of meaningless. I would actually be a leftist because I wish radical change, a return to self reliance, independence and freedom. While communists would also be leftists because they wish a change in the complete other direction.
Xris would be a rightist because he does not favor much change from the current socialism we have.

Hmm... so if I like individual freedom I should actually speed up the move towards totalitarianism and hope that we start again.

Im left of centre but I want change.I dont like governments being influenced by unfair means. I dont want the individuals rights threatened by the multitude but want security for each every one.

Xris, I think we agree that the problem is the government unfairly giving privileges to the wrong people, those who have the means to lobby the government, not those who deserve the privileges.
Yet you say the solution is making the government more powerful in order for it to be able to grant privileges to the right people to balance that out - socialism. While I say that a powerful government per definition always will give privileges to the wrong people, so not making government powerful is the solution.

Would you agree with that general assessment?

I dont want to give governments more power,I would love to see them reliquish most of their power. What poisons governments and democracy is the need for them to chase votes and keep the rich barstewards happy. We the stupid populace decide the greed we can endure by voting for those who pamper to our needs. O lets save the world we cry but dont stop my luxuries, my holidays abroad etc..
If corporate greed was controlled,such things as health care would be a third of the price and everyone could afford it. If greed was taxed instead of income who could complain?

But I thought you are a socialist, or at least support socialism?
Socialism means the government takes person A's money and gives it to person B, because B is poor or whatever. And A is a mean rich corporatist.
Of course money flowing through the government means it has more power, you can't really support the government helping the poor without wanting the government to have more power.

You read what you want to hear. Every government takes money,every tribe member contributes to the tribe...If one member exploits the rest we take measures to restrict his greed. In the present systems, i see operating at the moment, the greedy barstewards use their power to ensure their exploitation continues. It takes away fair competition,which i am in favour of, and uses its growing strength to ensure its exploitation continues.

You seem to connect freedom to do business and government granting unfair privileges to corporatists into the term right-wing politics. Right-wing really means government protecting individual freedom, including the freedom to make more than others.
Government granting unfair privileges to corporatists is a not a right-wing hallmark, and I want to do away with it as much as you do. Quite the contrary, I identify government interventions as left.
So what you criticize as right, is really left.

How would you have described the previous administration...Bush..left or right?

Left. A big spender. Increasing government size and spending. It was a big government administration.

So how many others do you think share your view of the last republican administration being left wing ? This is where your views are extremely strange and very difficult to understand. I wish you could write exactly what you think a government should actually be doing and what if any should the population do to assist that government?

To return to examples on the forum, fundamentally I don't see a whole lot of difference between you and xris. While I certainly agree with you a great deal more than xris, I believe both of you have a similar sense of justice and a similar outlook on the state of social affairs. Neither of you are supportive of the current state of affairs (you may be a little more likely to defend it, so I would put you to the right), but neither of you really look for any meaningful change to it either.

BrightNoon may be either way. I know of what he seeks, but I don't know how disenfranchised by the current state of affairs he is, or how drastically different he believes they should be.

As for me, I am very leftist because I support a drastic overhaul of just about every part of our way of life. I completely oppose a state, I believe in community level activity and organization, I oppose a good deal of what we call property rights, and while my society would not be egalitarian, it would not be so systematically skewed and noncompetitive.

At least when all of this devastates the nation in the next ten years (or leads to a world ending global war, we could do it!), free market economics won't get more blame than it already has.

While I say that a powerful government per definition always will give privileges to the wrong people, so not making government powerful is the solution.

That is pretty much spot on, although to be fair, it can be looked at another way.

You could say that Xris thinks that the wrong people will simply build government back up to provide privileges, and that you think government will stay limited in the face of powerful economic entities.

So how do you fight fires, collect garbage?

What do you do with the disadvantaged?

Is this education free?

Who controls the monopolies?

Is land a national resource?

are the water resources corporately owned?

Is the airspace in private hands?

do you allow lobbying?

Who catches you when you fall?

Monopolies are what they are, no one can act against them without government control. Oil companies ,water companies . If they form monopolies no one can act against them. Price fixing is what they do, without government laws they screw us all.

So you pay the fireman when he calls ? and who demands we have our garbage collected ?

Why should i pay for your education when you wont pay for my health care?

So who owns the minerals beneath your ground? is it your land?

What if the banks loose my money and the charities are overwhelmed with demand?

Monopolies are what they are, no one can act against them without government control. Oil companies ,water companies . If they form monopolies no one can act against them. Price fixing is what they do, without government laws they screw us all.

So why should a company not want to lobby governments for your educational contracts or your garbage collection contracts, you've just given them the power to regulate.

Now I do agree that in markets where there are considerable barriers entry & markets where there is a natural monopoly (Water & Gas supplys to homes is such an example), that Government regulation is a regrettable necessity.

What is a nation without society and what is a society if not an expression of inclusiveness. It is this notion of belonging that enables societies to rally in times of need or crisis. The argument for individualism is betrayed when its advocates suggest it be the norm, something to be imposed on all. Most of us, and I believe this is true even in America, prefer a moderate measure of collective organization and shared responsibility.

Our rights, taken collectively, are every bit as relevant as those of the neighbor who thinks he ought to be able to move into our community and have truckloads of horse dung heaped on his front lawn because it's his and therefore nobody else's concern.