True Sentences

@fast,

fast;116065 wrote:

Do propositions have something in common with electrons?

Yes, they are not directly detectable. Of course propositions are not detectable at all since they are non-spatiotemporal.

---------- Post added 01-01-2010 at 05:56 PM ----------

Subjectivity9;116069 wrote:

Yes, dear Ken,

Perhaps, there is an Ultimate truth. But, I believe that sentences, statements, and propositions should be open to revision, don't you? Otherwise what is the use of speaking at all? We could just get you to write this truth out for us, once and for all, and give it a rest. : ^ )

Any chance of a "resolution" to your resting?

S9

Please take your derail somewhere else.

1 Reply

@Emil,

[QUOTE=Emil;116071]Yes, they are not directly detectable.[/QUOTE]Thanks.

[quote]Of course propositions are not detectable at all since they are non-spatiotemporal.[/QUOTE]They have no physical location, so I would agree that they are non-spatio, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that propositions are non-temporal. The meaning of a sentence is dependent on a sentence, and no sentences exist in a world without people.[/SIZE]

1 Reply

@fast,

fast;116065 wrote:

Do propositions have something in common with electrons?

Do you mean, are they explanatory posits? Yes. What what else would they be than theoretical entities? So is God in this respect. "The invisible explains the visible". Thomas Aquinas

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@fast,

fast;116079 wrote:

Thanks.

They have no physical location, so I would agree that they are non-spatio, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that propositions are non-temporal. The meaning of a sentence is dependent on a sentence, and no sentences exist in a world without people.

Another reason to believe that propositions are not meanings of sentences.

Also, your last claim is false. There are possible worlds where there are sentences and no people.

1 Reply

@Emil,

Emil;116044 wrote:

Could we possibly keep the nonsense out of this thread?

If you want to bench your self; go ahead.. Other wise join...I say words, sentences, and combination of sentences contain meaning, and it is out of meaning that other humans build up a picture, if you prefere, a sense of the truth... Why is it you do not believe strangers as easily as those you know and trust??? It is because their words have more meaning, the meaning of truth...

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@fast,

Another one bites the dust! (=Gets on the ignore list.)

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@fast,

Emil wrote:

Also, I'm inclined to believe that sentences like "Snow is white" (english), "Schnee ist weiss" (german), "sne er hvidt" (danish) etc. do not express the same proposition but merely logically equivalent propositions. But I don't know any good condition for propositional identity. Being logically equivalent is a necessary condition but not a sufficient.

What makes you think those three sentences don't express the same proposition? Isn't snow, and white, the same for a German as it is for an Englishman?

1 Reply

@fast,

I would suggest that no sentence exists except as a form of a relationship, and of communication...For lack of a better expression, words are like a process (meaning)pushed back and forth... If words are directed at me, in English, then I can add to them, disagree with them, or agree with them... That person who can understand three languages is a small target, because he is rare...If he hears a similar message in one tongue and then in two others, it will be he who equates their messages...We resolve all contradiction just as God used to do...As no communication can be exact, the notion of truth must be discarded as a matter of course... We communicate meaning from which is derived a sense of truth...

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin;116092 wrote:

What makes you think those three sentences don't express the same proposition? Isn't snow, and white, the same for a German as it is for an Englishman?

I think the words may have slightly dissimilar meanings. Any dissimilarity is enough for it to be false that they express the same proposition.

Also, the same sentence (type) written in the same language may have different meanings at different times.

1 Reply

@Emil,

Emil;116113 wrote:

I think the words may have slightly dissimilar meanings. Any dissimilarity is enough for it to be false that they express the same proposition.

Also, the same sentence (type) written in the same language may have different meanings at different times.

That's very interesting -- slightly dissimilar meanings. But, why do you think this? What makes you think that the German and the Englishman aren't understanding what snow is, and what white is, and that snow is white? Where could the dissimilarity lie?

1 Reply

@fast,

The French word white is blanc, which became the English word: black...Yet each group can make themselves understood by the other, when that is their desire...It is because communication is not the exchange of words, but of meanings...

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin;116115 wrote:

That's very interesting -- slightly dissimilar meanings. But, why do you think this? What makes you think that the German and the Englishman aren't understanding what snow is, and what white is, and that snow is white? Where could the dissimilarity lie?

I only said I was inclined to believe it. Not that I believe it.

I didn't write that they don't understand it. I said they may understand slightly different things by the sentences.

I don't know where the dissimilarity is in this case, if any. But if you take some complex sentence, it is often not possible to translate it without slight change in meaning because of the different words.

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@Emil,

[QUOTE=Emil;116084]Another reason to believe that propositions are not meanings of sentences.[/QUOTE]Just to be sure I'm keeping this straight, you and Kennethamy are in disagreement on this issue. That sound right to you?

[quote]Also, your last claim is false. There are possible worlds where there are sentences and no people.[/QUOTE]I don't see why you would think my last claim is false. I didn't say that it wasn't logically possible. I'm saying there are no sentences without people. [/SIZE]

Perhaps I should say there are no human made sentences that express meaning without people to formulate sentences.

We don't have a problem thinking that words denote meaning. Why should we have a problem thinking sentences convey meaning?

Most sentences are meaningful. Fewer are cognitively meaningful (true or false). Those sentences (mostly declarative sentences) that are cognitively meaningful (true or false) express propositions--which is the meaning expressed by declarative sentences that are true or false.

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@fast,

fast;116407 wrote:

Just to be sure I'm keeping this straight, you and Kennethamy are in disagreement on this issue. That sound right to you?

I don't see why you would think my last claim is false. I didn't say that it wasn't logically possible. I'm saying there are no sentences without people.

Perhaps I should say there are no human made sentences that express meaning without people to formulate sentences.

We don't have a problem thinking that words denote meaning. Why should we have a problem thinking sentences convey meaning?

Most sentences are meaningful. Fewer are cognitively meaningful (true or false). Those sentences (mostly declarative sentences) that are cognitively meaningful (true or false) express propositions--which is the meaning expressed by declarative sentences that are true or false.

Sentence are meanings, and meaning is a form of relationship, and also a form of relationship between people... Don't ask: What if no one were here; would it still have meaning??? For the last person on this earth no moral form would have meaning, because meaning is what we share, in sentences, and in concepts and in everything we do... Less than two and we're through...

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@fast,

Sentences are a grammatical instrument for carrying thoughts.

Sentences do not hold truth in themselves as any kind of essential truth within. A sentence can carry a lie, (not necessarily by mistake), or it can carry an irrational message, as easily as it can carry a purely logical message, a logic that has little or nothing to do with the real world, because a sentence just like an automobile isn’t changed structurally by its passengers, which it carries only.

I think there may be a little bit of magical thinking going on here, I'm afraid.

Sentences don’t live on their own, here on earth, or on other planets, either. Dreaming it up, doesn't make it so.

I’m not sure that personification of a sentence, even works outside of cartoon land.

So what we have is a usable tool much like a basket, but with absolutely NO life of its own.

S9

S9

1 Reply

@fast,

fast;116407 wrote:

Just to be sure I'm keeping this straight, you and Kennethamy are in disagreement on this issue. That sound right to you?

It seems so. Kennethamy wrote earlier that he thinks propositions are the meanings of sentences. I do not think so. I agree with Swartz about propositions, that is, I think that they are things in themselves (sui genesis).

fast;116407 wrote:

I don't see why you would think my last claim is false. I didn't say that it wasn't logically possible. I'm saying there are no sentences without people.

I think you did. Here, look:

fast earlier wrote:

no sentences exist in a world without people.

What else would you mean by this?

fast;116407 wrote:

Perhaps I should say there are no human made sentences that express meaning without people to formulate sentences.

That is obviously true. Even a tautology.

fast;116407 wrote:

We don't have a problem thinking that words denote meaning. Why should we have a problem thinking sentences convey meaning?

Not sure what "words denote meaning" means.

Ok. I agree that some sentences convey meaning.

fast;116407 wrote:

Most sentences are meaningful. Fewer are cognitively meaningful (true or false). Those sentences (mostly declarative sentences) that are cognitively meaningful (true or false) express propositions--which is the meaning expressed by declarative sentences that are true or false.

I also think that some interrogative sentences are cognitively meaningful.

"Cognitively meaningful" is not in all cases defined as "being true or false". Careful with defining that term since it changes meaning relatively to which theory of truth bearers it is used in context too.

2 Replies

@Emil,

Quote:

Emil;116462 wrote:
It seems so. Kennethamy wrote earlier that he thinks propositions are the meanings of sentences. I do not think so. I agree with Swartz about propositions, that is, I think that they are things in themselves (sui genesis).

Non sense dear Emil... It is impossible for any sort of form, as language is, and words are and meaning is, to be also a thing in itself... Even when these are considered as concepts they are always meaning without being... Only matter, physical matter of some sort that can be sensed in some fashion are things... A res, of the word reality, is a thing, it must be real to be a thing in itself...

Quote:

Not sure what "words denote meaning" means.

Ok. I agree that some sentences convey meaning.

If you do not know the meaning of words, why do you bother to form them into sentences??? I might say with my right hand that you must be fooling; and on ny other right hand that such will full ignorance can only be feigned...What do you say???

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@Emil,

[QUOTE=Emil;116462]Not sure what "words denote meaning" means.[/QUOTE]I think it's a more precise way of saying, "words have meaning."

[QUOTE]I also think that some interrogative sentences are cognitively meaningful.[/QUOTE]I suppose you have rhetorical questions in mind.

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@fast,

fast;116635 wrote:

I think it's a more precise way of saying, "words have meaning."

I suppose you have rhetorical questions in mind.

Even meaningless sentences have a meaning... Nothing, as a concept, has a meaning... Words are primarily applied to the moral world, and that entire experience is of qualities without a particular being that we know as meaniing...All our concepts, as words are, are meanings...They are not the thing, but the meaning of the thing...

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@fast,

fast;116635 wrote:

I think it's a more precise way of saying, "words have meaning."

Ok.

Quote:

I suppose you have rhetorical questions in mind.

No. (more characters....)

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