When does consciousness begin?

@richrf,

Rich, can you explain the merit in teleological metaphysics?

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401;70489 wrote:

Rich, can you explain the merit in teleological metaphysics?

Hi Holiday,

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.

Rich

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@Smiley451,

I think he means that you're speculating on the metaphysical nature of what something might evolve into (with the buried assumption that organisms necessarily evolve towards higher degrees of communication). But I saw your post as tongue-in-cheek.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;70502 wrote:

I think he means that you're speculating on the metaphysical nature of what something might evolve into (with the buried assumption that organisms necessarily evolve towards higher degrees of communication). But I saw your post as tongue-in-cheek.

Hi,

Yes, I agree. It is all speculation.

I just observe what Is (from my perspective, of course), and I can speculate about this or that. Heck, people are speculating all the time. The stock market. Football games. Philosophy. The meaning of quantum mechanics. Some speculate about this, others speculate about that. Others ... well they Know, and that is something different all together.

So, speculation is what we do in life. Why not? It is part of the human experience and it is a great way to pass time (whatever time is of course - but we can only speculate about that. Smile

)

Rich

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@Smiley451,

Richrf, the consciousness is the centre of creativity and will, but they both work from memory. If one is to create, what is the purpose of creating if there is no goal to recollect in the memory. How are we creative if we have no memory to build our creativity upon. One person saw a floating log, this became a raft, that became a boat and onto a ship. If there was no memory of the floating log, how would the concept of a raft float into the imagination.

Will cannot pertain to anything if one has no memory. One cannot strive to be better if there is no memory of what is. Better than what, better at what, better how.

1 Reply

@Smiley451,

nameless wrote:

As was the response elicited, Mr. Moderator!
*__-

I find you an interesting 'Perspective'.

Thanks for your thoughts.

- Zeth

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@urangutan,

urangutan;70554 wrote:

Richrf, the consciousness is the centre of creativity and will, but they both work from memory. If one is to create, what is the purpose of creating if there is no goal to recollect in the memory. How are we creative if we have no memory to build our creativity upon. One person saw a floating log, this became a raft, that became a boat and onto a ship. If there was no memory of the floating log, how would the concept of a raft float into the imagination.

Will cannot pertain to anything if one has no memory. One cannot strive to be better if there is no memory of what is. Better than what, better at what, better how.

Hi,

I agree there is memory. Memory within one life span (the common use of memory), and memory between multiple lifespans (what people refer to as inherited characteristics).

However, during periods of time memory may be lost. Memory changes when one goes to sleep. Memory is lost at other times also. And memory is lost when one dies and is reborn.

I believe memory is lost between death/birth so that consciousness can begin again completely refreshed without the burden of the old game. Sort of like starting a new game of monopoly. The game begins at zero, though the players retain skills from game to game.

Rich

---------- Post added at 09:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 AM ----------

Zetherin;70556 wrote:

I find you an interesting 'Perspective'.

Thanks for your thoughts.

- Zeth

Hey Zeth,

Thanks. I enjoy reading about your perspective also.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

Did you know that naturalism is considered a form of intelligence in multiple intelligence theory...

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@Smiley451,

Interesting process of life and death, Richrf. Is it the connections between these life's and in each life that you speak of obtaining. The consciousness of ones entire existance, found accessable. Remember to be in safe human mode when you begin to wander through this passage, because you don't want to be living elsewhere when the life you have here comes into conflict. Maybe one should start with consciosness through sleep. Meditation would be another step, but why waste this life to reach the other when sleep is an obvious option. Exist within ones dreams.

1 Reply

@urangutan,

urangutan;70723 wrote:

Interesting process of life and death, Richrf. Is it the connections between these life's and in each life that you speak of obtaining.

Hi there,

Actually, I am not in the obtaining mood nowadays. Had enough of that in my life. Just going around doing different things - dancing, tennis, table tennis, chess, reading, ... you know, things in life. Every once in a while an interesting thought comes to me. Like the one I read the other day about "philosophy is about remembering". So, just moving through life, doing different things.

One thing I learned, is that trying hard to obtain something is exhausting. So I am just open, if and when it comes:

This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival. ...

BE grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

Rumi

Nice stuff, Smile

Rich

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@Smiley451,

In the movie "Highlander", there was this mentioning of a "Quickening". Mind you only after killing all the perponents, could this be acheived. My guess is that it all takes up back to primeval soup. How can the conscious deal with such variations of awareness and perhaps remain accepting of the surroundings.

I began to read the "Copenhagen" thread, and found that it seemed relevent as I returned here. This point that the Copernicus and Darwin, theories removed us from the centre of the universe, was interisting. Oddly enough it was only Copernicus who acheived that but as I well imagine, the Earth is the centre of the universe, when one observes living life. All other life may exist but it does not live, life.

I would bet my bottom dollar, that if they could take readings to determine the prescence of salt in the outer universe they would not find it. If they did, then there would be life. I wonder if it has a conscious mind.

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@Smiley451,

In response to the original question, it is noteworthy that Buddhists and others use the contradictions inherent in the idea that consciousness has a beginning to prove that it doesn't.

1 Reply

@Whoever,

Hard question to answer, even more hard topic to conceive. My opinion is that we have very small minds and to receive the answers to this, we must go into a purer form of consciousness.

It could be that consciousness is one big grand illusion. Heck, maybe this life you think you are living right now is just an NDE of what your real life is and you're just tripping really bad. Imagine that!

Or, another explanation could be that consciousness exists everywhere. Could be possible. Based on NDE research, people have a feeling of being more one with everything outside of body and blind people who have OBE and NDE's can see their surroundings. Perhaps more evidence that consciousness is seperate from the biological body? Perhaps.

But never dismiss something because you don't remember it. A new study on DMT suggests that we dream every night, we just don't remember it. If we didn't, we would eventually go completely crazy. So whether it be an OBE, a dream, before you were born/when you were an infant, just because you don't consciously remember something doesn't mean it didn't happen. There has been lots of times where I had recalled an OBE or a dream I had much later in the day it happened.

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@Smiley451,

Interesting note - recent experiment somewhere (can't find the reference right at the moment) showed that some animals, including birds, can recognise themselves in the mirror. The evidence is the experimenter put something on the animals head and showed them the mirror, and they scratched it off. (this was sometime in the last 6 months, BBC online, I think.)

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@Smiley451,

i think consciousness and self awareness are two different things. and even if one is able to recognize oneself in the mirror doesnt necessarily mean that it knows it is not the mirror or that it is not you and me.

suppose a person or animal has the perception that it is 'all', then self awareness would mean aware of everything. if it has the perception it is encased in its body then it would have that as its awareness of self.

a person or entity (animal, insect etc) could have a sense of danger even if it did not know it was separate from its surroundings, such as i could sense the danger of cutting myself when i am using a knife. but i dont think any of these ideas reflect on the issue of intelligence. i see no necessity in the belief that one is separate from anyone else or anything in order to survive. i think it could be that there are just different developmental stages which apparently suited the organisms who exhibit them.

so to get back to the op, i am not really sure that a baby is not conscious or self-aware at birth and maybe some time before birth. maybe it just has not yet developed its sense of perception and definition of self (that to which i here refer is the present working consensus of mankind)to our level. it is only just beginning to try and adjust into its new surroundings and the new options available to it. so when a baby is born prematurely, it may be able to survive and grow, but i think that would most likely be a good criterion for when a baby is actually 'conscious'. it isnt possible to say that every child born at a particular gestational age will survive, but for each individual, that stage of development would have to be conscious.

and i am one of those who have come to believe all life is conscious simply due to the way i define consciousness. being called conscious isnt necessarily a compliment.

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@Smiley451,

I think it might help if rather than speculate on a propossed outcome of mind use, where the only information at hand is the concept of mind use, one might offer reference to the desired use.

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@Smiley451,

IMO, there is a difference in consciousness and awareness. For instance, ever been driving down the road, a familiar road, and get lost in reverie (daydreaming about this or that) and all of a sudden you "snap out of it" and notice you have no recollection of the past 10 miles you traveled. It is as if you were on "auto pilot" and your sub-conscious was in charge. Though we didn't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen; it's just perhaps inexplicable. Such is the subject we are discussing. Just because we don't remember 'that consciousness' that existed before we took our first breath, doesn't mean it didn't exist. We just don't remember it. Being that event is not "familiar" simply because we have nothing to compare it to like the familiarity of that oft traveled road, we conclude there is no awareness therefore it "doesn't exist".
This is, at it's core, the erroneous rationalization that justified the horrific act of abortion. This rationalization allows us to "sleep" at night, though we will "toss and turn" as our awareness and consciousness will always be at unrest as long as this continues.

Just because we are not familiar with it, how can we possibly know the consciousness and awareness of another as we cannot adequately define it in ourselves as the above scenario illustrates. How do we have the "right" to assume that we are not familiar with? To ease our mind? Offer reason that gives us temporary solace? Ignore the realization of actions? We are all guilty of this affliction to some degree of another. It is, IMO, as survival mechanism that will only lead to further irrationalizations until all becomes irrational which will lead to insanity; another matter we are not familiar with (well some of us anyway thanks to the drugs of science, the last item on my "list".)

Therefore it reasonable to conclude conscious and awarness do exist and are not meant to be disturbed, not "remembering" is no excuse.

William

1 Reply

@William,

William;74512 wrote:

IMO, there is a difference in consciousness and awareness. For instance, ever been driving down the road, a familiar road, and get lost in reverie (daydreaming about this or that) and all of a sudden you "snap out of it" and notice you have no recollection of the past 10 miles you traveled. It is as if you were on "auto pilot" and your sub-conscious was in charge. Though we didn't remember it doesn't mean it didn't happen; it's just perhaps inexplicable.
William

sorry to interject by focusing on the introductory part of your statement rather than the more serious heart of the matter william, but what you are saying above is why i dont drive any more!

in fact i usually walk ending up not knowing how i got where i am. i have found that if i trust i will be able to follow my instinct that i manage to make it back even better than if i try to actually pay attention and remember how to get back home. but i do have some sort of cognitive shortcircuit, i would guess. i can follow maps well but here there are no street signs and everywhere looks the same. any landmark you try to hang onto is likely to disappear one day. but there is definitely more things going on in our 'consciousness' than we are 'aware' of.

urangutan Re: When does consciousness begin?
"I think it might help if rather than speculate on a propossed outcome of mind use, where the only information at hand is the concept of mind use, one might offer reference to the desired use. "

is this post directed at me? whether it is or not, i think it would be nice if those who can speculate do so and those who can offer references do so. why must we limit ourselves to only one preoccupation? that is my answer even though i am unable to speculate on exactly what it is you are saying or to whom you are speaking...

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@salima,

Hi all,

Individual consciousness for me is composed of several aspects including: a) learned skills
b) awareness/creativity
c) will/drive
d) desire to preserve current physical life form
e) essence or connection to the Universal Consciousness

This dovetails Chinese metaphysics. a) Hun b) Yi c)Zhi d)Po e) Shen

For me, different types of consciousness exist depending upon the development of each of these aspects and the development of the sensitivity of the brain/spine nervous system.

Interestingly, in Chinese metaphysics, these five aspects reside in the organs and the organs communicate with each other and the outside world via the brain/spine.

Rich

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@salima,

salima;74521 wrote:

sorry to interject by focusing on the introductory part of your statement rather than the more serious heart of the matter william, but what you are saying above is why i dont drive any more!

in fact i usually walk ending up not knowing how i got where i am. i have found that if i trust i will be able to follow my instinct that i manage to make it back even better than if i try to actually pay attention and remember how to get back home. but i do have some sort of cognitive shortcircuit, i would guess. i can follow maps well but here there are no street signs and everywhere looks the same. any landmark you try to hang onto is likely to disappear one day. but there is definitely more things going on in our 'consciousness' than we are 'aware' of.

.

Thanks Salima,and please don't apoligize. It's like the human being is a homing pigeon returning to the comfort and the serentiy of womb that will allow us to take another "stab" at his thing we call life. That "homing" instinct is what guides us through life; it's just we fail to recognize it whether you are walking or driving. It know's best as you alluded to your trust in doing those things you feel comfort in doing: like walking. The consciousness at all levels takes over when our awareness is "disturbed". The males desire to return to the womb could be be defined as that sex drive we possess; as we enter this world from woman and spend the rest of our lives trying to get back in. God, what a thought! Ha. That could explain a lot. Ha. I can't believe I said that. Oh, well, I stopped trying to figure that out long ago. Smile

William

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When does consciousness begin?

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