When does consciousness begin?

@Smiley451,

Scientific evidence of self-awareness (i.e. beyond rudimentary sensations) doesn't arise until postnatally, generally around 2-4 months of age when babies begin to look at their own hands, touch their own faces, etc. External self-awareness (i.e. recognition of self in a mirror or a photo) doesn't arise until 2 years of age. My son, now 14 months, LOVES seeing himself in mirrors and in pictures, but he doesn't know that it's himself.

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@Smiley451,

Smiley451;70234 wrote:

I've been wondering when a human becomes self-aware. Are the egg and sperm aware of themselves? Is the zygote? Is the fetus? Is the infant?
I'm not sure if this question has been scientifically answered, but please clue me in on it.
Thanks.

Now this is an interesting question. How to know whether or not there is self-awareness at any point in time. I know lots of adults who don't seem to be aware of what they are doing. Smile

I know that my son David cried like heck when he was born. He wanted his Mom and he wanted food! He must have been aware of something. :bigsmile:

Now, he did a couple of interesting things. When I held him right after he was born, he looked straight into my eyes. Hmmmm ..... who the heck is this guy?

When he was taken away from his Mom (this only lasted a short time, Mom took care of that B.S. right quick), he was behind a window. He heard me and some friends talking and turned his head around to look at us using his head and neck muscles. To this day, when he puts his mind to something, he does it.

As, to before that, well, I know when I use to raise my voice while he was in Mom's tummy, he used to kick like crazy. Didn't like that at all.

Rich

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@Smiley451,

Smiley451;70234 wrote:

I've been wondering when a human becomes self-aware.

First there must be a notion of a 'self' vs 'other'. This is ego/thoughtPerspective.
First, there is direct perception of what is.
Then, at some point, we (are brainwashed/indoctrinated by our 'society' and) 'interpret'/analize/think about what we perceive. (That is up to us to teach them; "this is a bird, not a fish, two different things, seperate!" We validate and encourage the illusions barely yet perceived.)

"Our true nature is beyond thought, and can only be discerned when one abides in the present and serenely reflects the wonder of existence."

"The function of our mind is as a perceiver, but our thoughts find their origin in the memory of the mind's percption."

Aedes;70235 wrote:

...but he doesn't know that it's himself.

A state of 'innocence', all is still One!
There is yet no egoic/thought seperation and isolation, a 'fall from innocence'. For some, innocence can be regained, the Hindus call it 'enlightenment', experiencing, again, the Oneness of all.

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@Smiley451,

nameless wrote:

A state of 'innocence', all is still One!
There is yet no egoic/thought seperation and isolation, a 'fall from innocence'. For some, innocence can be regained, the Hindus call it 'enlightenment', experiencing, again, the Oneness of all.

I would never seek to "fall into innocence" again. Isn't that what differentiates us from most life-forms - This mind, thought separation, ego, ability to critically think, complex semantics? Why would I seek to be "one", practically going back to my infancy?

PS: Sorry, this was a bit off-topic.

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@Smiley451,

It might help the discussion to enumerate the "tests" by which one could determine whether (and consequently when) an human infant was "self-aware."

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@jgweed,

jgweed;70303 wrote:

It might help the discussion to enumerate the "tests" by which one could determine whether (and consequently when) an human infant was "self-aware."

If an infant cries, then it is self-aware that it is hungry. And My Kid cried a lot. Smile

Rich

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@Smiley451,

Consciousness is the awareness of obtained memory and providing the circuit of thought in memory, can provoke a sense of recognition, then there is awareness through consciousness. As to when memory of the self is gained I can only speak of myself and do not claim that there is any evidence to provide proof in a theory.

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@urangutan,

Hi think a human moves through all stages of evolution as it evolves from its earliest state into the present days condition. Thus, the human experiences all states of consciousness. Some of which may be without memory. If a baby indicates it wants to survive (I WANT MY FOOD), I feel it is aware of itself, that it is alive and ready to go.

Rich

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@Smiley451,

You seem to think the response of crying is a learned trait rather than a designed one. Each person can have their own take on this but akin to suckling, what is to say, that crying isn't a similar condition. A baby breathes, does that mean it knows it needs air or is the body simply functioning in a programmed way. I do not deny that a baby may have already developed self awareness, both within the womb and from the moment it was born but that does not change my inception of self nor the conception of its process.

Consciousness isn't breathing or crying for a feed, it is knowing that crying will get you fed.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;70330 wrote:

Consciousness isn't breathing or crying for a feed, it is knowing that crying will get you fed.

I see it differently. All of this are just early stages of evolutionary consciousness. I do not use the present day level of human consciousness as the standard, since even that is always changing. For me, consciousness creates the physical from (call the physical body a form of dense consciousness), and the crying and breathing are its way to survive. Seems all very natural to me and part of the continuum of evolving consciousness.

Rich

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@Smiley451,

Perhaps this is a rough way to explain the same point but if a child is born to two totally deaf parents is crying going to be the only excess that the child needs to express to be fed. Whether it knows both parents are deaf or not unless the child is observed through touch and sight it makes no difference. It still cries.

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Hence my point of of memory. Consciousness is gained through the aquisition of memory. Without the circuit of memory and association you cannot have consciousness, doesn't mean you cannot think and it doesn't mean you cannot sense your surroundings, it means you are not aware of them.

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@urangutan,

urangutan;70332 wrote:

Perhaps this is a rough way to explain the same point but if a child is born to two totally deaf parents is crying going to be the only excess that the child needs to express to be fed. Whether it knows both parents are deaf or not unless the child is observed through touch and sight it makes no difference. It still cries.

---------- Post added at 10:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------

Hence my point of of memory. Consciousness is gained through the aquisition of memory. Without the circuit of memory and association you cannot have consciousness, doesn't mean you cannot think and it doesn't mean you cannot sense your surroundings, it means you are not aware of them.

Yes. Evolution has evolved so that there are other people are around just in case the parents do not understand that the child is crying. It is all part of the overall evolution of consciousness.

Memory is a funny thing. It changes. It changes during one's life (how do we know what we remember is actually what happened, especially if contradicted by others. It also changes when moving from awake and sleep state. It may also change as it moves through the birth death cycle. Smile

Memory is a very interesting topic for me. What is sometimes called inherited characteristics, I call memory of an evolving consciousness over many lives (what is sometimes called the soul or Hun in Chinese).

There are many ways to look at these things. This is how I look at it.

Rich

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@richrf,

richrf;70322 wrote:

Thus, the human experiences all states of consciousness. Some of which may be without memory.

What are the "states of consciousness"? Perhaps you should define what you mean by conscious. For example, would you call a dog conscious?

I would not, it is easy to mistake consciousness for desire based on memory. My dog desires a treat from me when I tell him he's good and desires not to be beaten when I yell. (not that I beat my dog)

I think an important aspect of consciousness is the potential ability to question, to be able to think about something in more than reactionary ways.

I agree with Aedes, a baby is conscious around 2-4 months. Now, does a baby have the ability to question it's world at 2 months, probably not. But it has the potential ability to, it's developing the ability. It would seem that a 2 month old has a lower form of consciousness, a developing consciousness.

As to an infant crying for food: It is my understanding that infants don't cry for food, they cry because their stomachs hurt.

----- Post edit-------

Apparantly I waited to long to post and you had already answered some of my questions. I ask now: It seems that you have a loose definition of conciousness. Saying that you don't accept the current way people define consciousness is making the term something other than it is. For example, I can say that I don't accept the current definition of car and include a radio by itself in that definition.

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@de Silentio,

de Silentio;70340 wrote:

Apparantly I waited to long to post and you had already answered some of my questions. I ask now: It seems that you have a loose definition of conciousness. Saying that you don't accept the current way people define consciousness is making the term something other than it is. For example, I can say that I don't accept the current definition of car and include a radio by itself in that definition.

There are many, many ways to define consciousness. Yes, there are millions of pet owners who will say that their pets are conscious of them.

I have a view of the world that sees consciousness flowing and developing very similar to the way Itzhak Bentov views it.

The Evolving Universe | My Meaning of Life and Philosophy

For him, and for me, and for many others, consciousness manifests itself in many ways and it evolves (not to dissimilar from Darwin, but more encompassing). You and others may disagree with my definition, but I would not be too quick to assume that your definition of consciousness is the consensus view. If you believe this, then just state your definition and see how many people may disagree. Smile

We all see things differently in life. On some, we may reach quick consensus (not worth the bother to argue about). On others, we explore and understand the differences, because that is what we want to do. This is my view of consciousness. If you have a different, by all means explain it to me. That is why I am here.

Rich

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@Smiley451,

Odd that there are these temporal periods that seem to effect memory, sleep, wake, trauma, inhebriation. These are all memory breakers, I was just dreaming, now that I have sprightly awoken, I cannot recall my dream. Consciousness. If we mention the sub conscious and how we can be aware of it, at given times or at all times, perhaps the ability to control or teach this other conscious, maybe how this other can interact, then you need to be aware that all impulses from controlling the way your body is positioned, touching evreything it is is contact with decerning all facets of the other senses, everything down to the rythum of a blinking eye, translating it back into reality sense and recieving gratification of that task takes up more than anything memory does. The mind is a feeble thing, because it isn't the thinking organ, the whole body is. There is no time in the mind for thought, just memory "glands".

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@urangutan,

urangutan;70347 wrote:

There is no time in the mind for thought, just memory "glands".

I can conceive of the mind (or consciousness) as a pendulum going back and forth, back and forth, in a multi-dimensional space. This would be memory or inherited/evolved characteristics.

But, I can also envision consciousness doing just a bit more than just this endless cycle of things. It can imagine a new pattern and change direction. In Chinese metaphysics the imagining or creative part would be called the Yi (the creative Mind) and the force that provides direction would be called the Hun (Will). So we have memory, creativity, and the will to change. Smile

Rich

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin;70283 wrote:

I would never seek to "fall into innocence" again.

Not everyone is inclined toward 'truth', or a clear perception of existence as is 'directly perceived' without the dark twistings of 'interpretive thought'. The 'illusion' is seperation/alienation. The fall from innocence is the acceptance and belief of that illusion.
The direct perception of 'Truth' can be regained. No, it certainly is not for everyone, hence other Perspectives!

Quote:

Isn't that what differentiates us from most life-forms - This mind, thought separation, ego, ability to critically think, complex semantics?

To an extent. So? One can imagine all sorts of 'distinctions'.
We can play Monopoly, agree to the rules, and other species cannot. So?
It seems to me a bit.. 'delusional'.. when, while playing the game, to 'believe' that it is a 'reality' beyond merely a game. Such filtered 'belief' seems 'inhibitory' to the direct perception of Reality.

Quote:

Isn't that what differentiates us from most life-forms - This mind, thought separation, ego, ability to critically think, complex semantics?

And such a belief is 'good' thing?
Perhaps that 'belief' is what keeps us in the dark, a toxic species, alienated from our world and each other, destroying and committing atrocoties, in our delusion that we can do so with impugnity due to our imaginary 'isolated state'? The earth today is prime example of the errors of believing such illusions.
(Thank you western philosophy for supporting such error!)

Quote:

Why would I seek to be "one", practically going back to my infancy?

1) It doesn't appear that you would, at the moment.
(You are a unique Perspective and must be who you are.)
2) Because you might appreciate the 'truth' that that is the way that the Universe actually is; One.
Missing that might add the 'flavors' of a rich dimension of 'fantasy' to life, but, it misses fundamental 'truth' and the clarity thereof.
The clear vision with which you began life can be had again, but for most, it is never regained and our entire life is spent in a Mr. Magoo-like blinking fashion; predominately with eyes shut living a dream within a dream with occassional glimpses of 'Reality' as 'fuel'. Not that an egoic fantasy life doesn't have it's own emotional/egoic rewards. The 'game' is rich!
I don't know (of) anyone who has ever had the 'higher taste' of 'enlightenment' would ever wish to return (to ignorance).
Science is also now also in support of the Oneness of all, to the extent that the term 'scientific enlightenment' has already been coined.

Quote:

PS: Sorry, this was a bit off-topic.

As was the response elicited, Mr. Moderator!
*__-

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@Smiley451,

Rich, would you place a worm in the category of conscious beings?

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@de Silentio,

de Silentio;70474 wrote:

Rich, would you place a worm in the category of conscious beings?

Maybe, maybe not. I'll have to wait until it evolve so that it can tell me. If I were to guess at this point, I would probably say yes.

Now chimps are a different story. They are evolving to the point that they seem to be just about able to transmit in a way that I can understand. I hope they are not too pissed off.

Rich

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When does consciousness begin?

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