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Is belief the root of all evil?

 
 
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 03:20 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Belief doesn't do the forcing. I believe all drugs should be legal, yet I am not forced to do drugs because I believe they should be available. Therefore the opposite is true. If you force someone to not do something it is not because of your belief it is because of the force.

Tell me please, what is the reason for forcing others to do something? Is it not belief in something?
Krumple wrote:
Money is not inherently good nor bad. It is how it is used that makes it bad or good. You can believe money is evil but it's not. If it were then you could never do anything good with it, but clearly you can, so it's obviously not evil.

I do not maintain that money is evil. They are themselves indifferent.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 08:03 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon wrote:
what is the reason for forcing others to do something? Is it not belief in something?
No, it's generally a means to achieve a certain result. It's a consequentialist agenda, whether one realizes it or not.
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 08:50 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
No, it's generally a means to achieve a certain result. It's a consequentialist agenda, whether one realizes it or not.

But what provokes desire to achieve that result? What are "consequentalist agenda"?
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:28 am
@Eudaimon,
No one robs a bank to uphold a principle of theft. They rob a bank to get money.

No one commits murder to uphold the principle of murder. They do it so that their victim will be dead.

By "consequentialist agenda" I only mean that it's an action performed in order to achieve a desired consequence.

I don't exclude the possibility that people can do evil things to uphold a belief, i.e. a terrorist who believes in martyrdom. At the same time, however, the planning of such an act is done with a specific result other than martyrdom in mind -- I mean all the planning that went into the 9/11 attacks were perhaps inspired by martyrdom, but fundamentally it was a practical matter for them to figure out how to make a spectacularly grand and violent demonstration (and Al Qaeda talked openly about America's economic collapse as a result).
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:41 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
No one robs a bank to uphold a principle of theft. They rob a bank to get money.

No one commits murder to uphold the principle of murder. They do it so that their victim will be dead.

By "consequentialist agenda" I only mean that it's an action performed in order to achieve a desired consequence.

When someone is going to rob a bank he has a belief that money is good, does he not?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:50 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon wrote:
When someone is going to rob a bank he has a belief that money is good, does he not?


Well, perhaps. But he also believes he can be successful, and a number of other things. It may be that believing that money is good is partly the cause of robbing the bank. But how does that mean that all beliefs are the root of all evil? How about my belief that someone is a needy person which causes me to help him?
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:59 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy wrote:
Well, perhaps. But he also believes he can be successful, and a number of other things. It may be that believing that money is good is partly the cause of robbing the bank. But how does that mean that all beliefs are the root of all evil? How about my belief that someone is a needy person which causes me to help him?

:perplexed:If I see a needy person I think that for me it will be pleasant to help him, therefore there is no belief here.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 01:46 pm
@Krumple,
Bones-O! wrote:
Because we want to avoid rhetoric. 'Evil' is the buzzword of militant propaganda. In an emotionally detached conversation, emotionally detached language is more helpful.


Evil is not a buzz word, morality is just a word to water down real depravity

---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

Aedes wrote:
Care to share some of the direct causes?


Paul I am perplexed at your silence toward Eudaimon and his antisemitism , does this type of rhetoric belong in a forum like ours

I am not a moderator if it is allowed then I will leaving at that, it makes me uncomfortable, my mother was Jewish as where you folks
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 05:02 pm
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon;62668 wrote:
When someone is going to rob a bank he has a belief that money is good, does he not?
Just a desire for it -- why does that require some sort of general principle about the goodness of money?

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:02 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;62704 wrote:
Paul I am perplexed at your silence toward Eudaimon and his antisemitism , does this type of rhetoric belong in a forum like ours
Thank you Alan, in general I completely agree. With respect to this thread, I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt -- some people make 'sterile' philosophical arguments about sensitive topics without consideration of those who might be offended.

If he or anyone else has a point to make that is more unambiguously antisemitic, racist, sexist, discriminatory, or flagrantly crass about the victims of a human catastrophe like the Holocaust, then we'll absolutely take it on. Being the grandchild of four survivors and the great grandchild / great nephew of many who died, I'm certainly attuned to the issue.

But I'm also willing to acknowledge that fruitful conversations need to happen with a certain degree of latitude, and our first expectation is that people be tactful, reflective, and use appropriate self-censorship. Eudaimon still deserves that chance.

Thanks again.
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 10:40 pm
@Aedes,
Originally Posted by kennethamy http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
Well, perhaps. But he also believes he can be successful, and a number of other things. It may be that believing that money is good is partly the cause of robbing the bank. But how does that mean that all beliefs are the root of all evil? How about my belief that someone is a needy person which causes me to help him?
[quote]

:perplexed:If I see a needy person I think that for me it will be pleasant to help him, therefore there is no belief here.[/quote]

Now you are being ridiculous. Because you just pointed out your belief. Need I show it to you?

If you say seeing a person in need and if you help them, it will be pleasant. That is a belief.

Is it always pleasant to help someone in need?
How did you come to the conclusion that it would be pleasant?
What would be the very first motivation to help someone in need? If you have never helped before, you wouldn't know it would be pleasant to do it. Therefore you would have to be acting on some other motivation to help.

Not a personal attack but you have a bogus argument. (probably could have left this out)
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 06:17 am
@Krumple,
Alan McDougall wrote:

Paul I am perplexed at your silence toward Eudaimon and his antisemitism , does this type of rhetoric belong in a forum like ours

I am not a moderator if it is allowed then I will leaving at that, it makes me uncomfortable, my mother was Jewish as where you folks

Frankly speaking I am also very perplexed how could my words be understood as atni-Semitism. Please show me what was offensive in them and I'll probably explain what is unclear. Anti-Semitism caused Nazism and in tune also has its causes, therefore if we, as analysts, want to understand why people started hating and killing Jews we should try to find them. So, I am asking again what is here that offends anyone?
Krumple wrote:
Now you are being ridiculous. Because you just pointed out your belief. Need I show it to you?

If you say seeing a person in need and if you help them, it will be pleasant. That is a belief.

Is it always pleasant to help someone in need?
How did you come to the conclusion that it would be pleasant?
What would be the very first motivation to help someone in need? If you have never helped before, you wouldn't know it would be pleasant to do it. Therefore you would have to be acting on some other motivation to help.

Not a personal attack but you have a bogus argument. (probably could have left this out)

There is such thing as induction. Through many mistakes one understands what is good and bad for him. But to understand that we should, as I have said somewhere above, frame "working hypothesis" like in science, so that when it fails, we may easily abandon it. That tells it from 'belief' which one follows despite all failures.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 10:04 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon;62819 wrote:
Anti-Semitism caused Nazism and in tune also has its causes, therefore if we, as analysts, want to understand why people started hating and killing Jews we should try to find them. So, I am asking again what is here that offends anyone?
That's not an offensive statement. Probably the most offensive routine statement that people (not you) make about the Holocaust is that it happened because the Jews went to their deaths like sheep. I also find it offensive that Hitler and his henchmen had some alternative moral scheme, and it was therefore morally "right" at least in their own eyes, because history shows that they didn't exactly believe this either.

To be clear, I disagree from an historical point of view that anti-Semitism "caused" Nazism. Anti-Semitism, the likes of which Hitler sucked up like wine when he was growing up in Austria, had been around for centuries. The unification of anti-Semitism with fascism is what gave Nazism its character, but you need to look at why fascism developed in Germany to really understand why the Nazi anti-Semitic program ever got anywhere. After all, anti-Semitism was FAR worse in Ukraine, Lithuania, Russia, and Poland than in Germany at the time.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 09:12 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
That's not an offensive statement. Probably the most offensive routine statement that people (not you) make about the Holocaust is that it happened because the Jews went to their deaths like sheep. I also find it offensive that Hitler and his henchmen had some alternative moral scheme, and it was therefore morally "right" at least in their own eyes, because history shows that they didn't exactly believe this either.

To be clear, I disagree from an historical point of view that anti-Semitism "caused" Nazism. Anti-Semitism, the likes of which Hitler sucked up like wine when he was growing up in Austria, had been around for centuries. The unification of anti-Semitism with fascism is what gave Nazism its character, but you need to look at why fascism developed in Germany to really understand why the Nazi anti-Semitic program ever got anywhere. After all, anti-Semitism was FAR worse in Ukraine, Lithuania, Russia, and Poland than in Germany at the time.



Exactly my point Paul, Jews were absolutely not to blame for the Holocaust, or Nazism, in fact Christians are much more to blame (Hitler claimed to be a Christian in his Mein Kamft His testimony)

Jew have been persecuted all down the ages, especially since the time of Christ with his so-called unloving word to the very people he loved so dearly his fellow Jews

Did he really say to the Jews "My blood be upon you and upon your children and children's children" or was this unlikely statement added later?

This is the man that previously said, blessed are the little children for of such is the kingdom of heaven
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 11:47 am
@Eudaimon,
No one is to blame except the perpetrators. Very few people except at the highest echelons actually coordinated the whole thing, starting from the pre-war persecutions through the various forms of murder and exploitation. But many people in that sort of environment turned on their neighbors, i.e. called them out and turned them into the Nazis, and became accessories in their own way.

It was a permissive culture, but I don't specifically blame Christianity per se for it. Yes, most Nazis were Christians, but they specifically rejected the nearly ubiquitous Christian principles of mercy for the weak and admonition against killing.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 12:20 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
No one is to blame except the perpetrators. Very few people except at the highest echelons actually coordinated the whole thing, starting from the pre-war persecutions through the various forms of murder and exploitation. But many people in that sort of environment turned on their neighbors, i.e. called them out and turned them into the Nazis, and became accessories in their own way.

It was a permissive culture, but I don't specifically blame Christianity per se for it. Yes, most Nazis were Christians, but they specifically rejected the nearly ubiquitous Christian principles of mercy for the weak and admonition against killing.


Agreed the perpetrators are/ were both personally accountable and responsible for their horrendous acts of depravity.

For someone to tell me the Jews brought it on themselves is a statement of evil itself, and just as silly as a school boy blaming his classmate for his own naughty pranks "Oh!! teacher Johnny made me do it"

Hitler and God "Oh!! god the Jews made me do it" Makes me want to vomit up slime
0 Replies
 
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 02:27 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
No one is to blame except the perpetrators. Very few people except at the highest echelons actually coordinated the whole thing, starting from the pre-war persecutions through the various forms of murder and exploitation. But many people in that sort of environment turned on their neighbors, i.e. called them out and turned them into the Nazis, and became accessories in their own way.

It was a permissive culture, but I don't specifically blame Christianity per se for it. Yes, most Nazis were Christians, but they specifically rejected the nearly ubiquitous Christian principles of mercy for the weak and admonition against killing.

I am not going to discuss anything of that kind since I see that some people here use not philosophical arguments (like kinship) to prove their views.
But, Paul, as far as I know thou art scientist, how canst thou speak about responsibility in the world where exist only energy, chemical elements etc. What is decision to kill others? Electrical process in brain which (as everything in nature) has its causes and takes place necessary... No one is responsible since according to science there is no one to be responsible, am I right?
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:06 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon wrote:
No one is responsible since according to science there is no one to be responsible, am I right?
What scientist has ever said that? It's only people who philosophize about science who think of that as a conundrum -- I doubt many scientists have offered that opinion.

Whether our brain works by chemicals and charges, or if it works by cogs and gears, fundamentally we are self-aware and self-conscious by some underlying mechanism; and by some shared underlying mechanisms, we have social instincts and mores that we take conscious ownership of. That's all that matters.
0 Replies
 
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:24 am
@Eudaimon,
Who are we? I don't understand thy reply.There are electrical charges which are caused by some other natural reasons, are they not? Everithing is in a strict cause-effect chain. Is it not scientific view? If no, please, enlighten me.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 11:41 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon wrote:
Everithing is in a strict cause-effect chain. Is it not scientific view? If no, please, enlighten me.
No, that's again just some projection made upon science from outside. Scientific findings stand on their own merits and don't require any infinite extrapolation of infinite causes. For example, I can prove to you beyond any reasonable scientific doubt that rhinovirus causes most cases of the common cold, or that green plants require light to survive. These demonstrations stand on their own evidence completely irrespective of what questions you ask about the "back" story.

And since at the quantum level we can only speak in probabilities and never in certainties, no such "chain" of infinite causation has ever been asserted.
0 Replies
 
Eudaimon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:49 pm
@Eudaimon,
From my textbook on quantum physics:
"Causality principle determines time sequence of events and their interconnexion in a given system. According to this principle state of physical system in any moment predetermines its state for every following moment. Despite probabilistic character of description of microworld objects, quantum processes also causally connected (determined)." Thus, in a closed system everything is predetermined, albeit we cannot know what exactly will take place.
 

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