2
   

veracity of evolution

 
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 12:03 pm
@William,
William;87425 wrote:
There most definitely is an 'origin to our human species" of which we truly do not have a clue, IMO and perhaps never will for it will all come about very naturally or not at all as we become to realize what life is all about. It may take a while; so what's the rush? The universe has a way of cleaning it's own house and to assume we that alter that is folly, IMO.
William


I totally agree.

And, if I might add, some people love to speculate about it and I am one of them. It is called metaphysics, one of my fondest hobbies.

Rich
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 12:29 pm
@William,
William;87425 wrote:
There seems to be a evolution/eugenic mindset that is egotistically 'out of control' as they desperately try to put a square peg into a round hole that doesn't even exist "naturally"; referring to that "un-disturbed" bottle of coke pathfinder so brilliantly made in that analogy. Perhaps Mary Shelley was a bit more of a prophet than than a writer, huh?


like heavier-than-air flight, the artificial person has been a dream of mankind at least as early as ancient Greek times, and it is one that is being realized even now. already there are blind people who have had their vision partially restored with retinal implants, and quadriplegics who can effect changes in their environments with direct neural interfaces. the details of neural computation are not all hashed out in the least but already it is possible to harness colonies of embryonic brain cells to learn things autonomously, and so on. NBIC technologies are emerging v v v rapidly now, as one hand tends to wash the other in this interdisciplinary area

the way I see it, your argument is two-faced: on the one hand, you are characterizing "them scientists" as impotent and unable to carry out what you see as pure evil. on the other hand, you appear to harbor deep-seated fear about what you think is going to happen in the future, which you are trying to conceal

the idea of an artificial person seems outlandish on the face of it, but not when you lift the assumption that he has to be built from scratch. he doesn't. stock humans are what we are working with now. the transformation is happening, very clearly. no it's not "natural," but neither are agriculture, damming, clothing, eyeglasses, and many other things we take for granted. deal with it
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 01:37 pm
@Grimlock,
Grimlock;87310 wrote:
I get what you're saying, but be careful you don't accidentally argue Popper's recanted position here.
First of all, Popper recanted it for a reason, and as he later came to realize natural selection is falsifiable and it's not a tautology.

Natural selection is only one component of evolutionary theory, and even falsifying natural selection does not automatically falsify evolution. If you want to falsify evolution, you also need to show that population gene frequency does NOT change as a function of time, and you need to show that it is false that species change phenotypically over time, you need to show that it is false that some species go extinct while others come into being, and you need to show that species do not diversify from common ancestry. All these things are independent components of evolutionary theory that do not require natural selection as an explanation.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 05:37 pm
@ACB,
ACB;87312 wrote:
Are you saying, as a general principle, that no amount of evidence is ever sufficient to confirm a theory beyond reasonable doubt? Or are you confining this principle to evolutionary theory? Do you think there is significant doubt about such things as the theory of gravity, the Earth's revolution about the Sun, the idea that stars are composed of incandescent gas, or the existence of the Roman Empire?

I just want to be clear where you draw the line between theories that you can confidently accept (gravity?) and those that you consider at serious risk of falsification (e.g. evolution). Surely any belief at all is suspect if you are prepared to consider sufficiently far-fetched scenarios. For example, heavy objects might start to float upwards tomorrow, or the Earth's revolution about the Sun might turn out to have been an illusion!

But we cannot seriously doubt everything, can we? So why single out evolution for disbelief? Yes, it deals with past events that we did not observe directly, but so do cosmology (e.g. the Big Bang, or the formation of stars) and human history (e.g. the Roman Empire). I am all for healthy skepticism where it is justified, but one must be consistent. One must either take the view that:

(a) no theory is on solid ground, since it can always be falsified; or

(b) any theory that is backed by a large weight of evidence (as biological evolution undoubtedly is), and is the best available theory (ditto), is probably true.

I take the latter view. The fact that falsification is possible does not imply that it is likely.


Let me try to as clear as I can about this:

I am NOT trying to undermine evolution science.

I am NOt hiding any agenda.

the differnce between gravity and the other things that you use, is that I believe that the tie between the mystery of life and evolution cannot be separated and that without knowing where liofe actually comes from that all evolution will ever be is speculation. the same can be said of the consciousness dilemma being had on that other thread.

I do not see how ther question of life's origin and the mye=stery behind it can be set aside as moot just to declare something discovered and factual.

This does not mean that the science should be discarded, just that it must remain in the realm of possibility like anything else that cannot be proven.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:03 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87484 wrote:
This does not mean that the science should be discarded, just that it must remain in the realm of possibility like anything else that cannot be proven.


Absolutely!

We're really lucky to live in world where there's no religious body with the authority to censor questioning about the nature of reality.

In fact our world is quite the opposite. The most prominent physicists advise us that the whole sha-bang is open to speculation. With the weight of Nobel prizes, they warrant consideration of the wildest possible scenarios to explain the outcome of experiements which fly directly in the face of conventional wisdom concerning energy, matter, time, and dimensionality.

Nobody has to eat Hemlock, nobody has to live under house-arrest, and nobody has to accept banishment for asking crazy questions.

This is the time to be open-minded... or be left behind.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:09 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;87489 wrote:
This is the time to be open-minded.
Let's be careful not to try to produce open-minded adults by contaminating the science education of children. Teach kids the state of the art of science first. You can't truly be open-minded if you're not empowered with knowledge and critical thinking.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:10 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87484 wrote:
the differnce between gravity and the other things that you use, is that I believe that the tie between the mystery of life and evolution cannot be separated and that without knowing where liofe actually comes from that all evolution will ever be is speculation.


fortunately you are not in charge of developing pharmaceuticals or programming methods
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:14 pm
@odenskrigare,
odenskrigare;87493 wrote:
fortunately you are not in charge of developing pharmaceuticals or programming methods



If I had been there would not be the thousands of thalidomide victims there are today.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:17 pm
@odenskrigare,
yeah and zillions of others would be dead or crippled with depression and other mental illnesses

you win some, you lose some

anyway we don't understand consciousness so why bother trying to alter someone's mood with chemicals it's probably not possible

oh yeah except it is see SSRIs
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:19 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87496 wrote:
If I had been there would not be the thousands of thalidomide victims there are today.
Thalidomide is back in use for various things like leprosy-induced neuropathy and for severe aphthous ulcers. It's a useful drug for some things. DDT is back in use as an indoor residual spray for malaria prevention. It takes research to learn how to use things safely -- but sounds like you would just throw these things out rather than figure out how to safely use them.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:22 pm
@odenskrigare,
even cocaine still has a few legit medical uses

want to see something really wild?

Tetrodotoxin for moderate to severe cancer pain: a...[J Pain Symptom Manage. 2008] - PubMed Result

---------- Post added 09-01-2009 at 08:23 PM ----------

that's right: Japanese puffer fish toxin
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:26 pm
@odenskrigare,
Yeah, my baby when he was 7 months old needed to see a neuro-ophthalmologist for mild congenital anisocoria, and they used cocaine drops to test for Horner's syndrome.

How about BoTox? It's nothing other than botulinum toxin, which is perhaps the most potent human toxin in existence.

How about digoxin / digitalis, which was the poison foxglove
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:30 pm
@odenskrigare,
isn't VX or something the most toxic thing around

VX (nerve agent) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it's synthetic of course

hahaha even we in the US are wiping out our stockpile, it's that foul
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:37 pm
@odenskrigare,
Not sure, potency by definition is the milligram dose required to produce a given effect. The most potent toxins can kill in nanogram doses. Botulinum toxin's cousin is tetanus toxin, i.e. they both come from Clostridia species, and tetanus is pretty potent as well. I think enriched plutonium is also up there.

I don't know anything about VX but it makes me think of The Rock with Nicholas Cage.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:38 pm
@odenskrigare,
There is a strange and erroneous notion circulating that anything that comes from nature is "good for you" and anything manufactured or altered by man "is toxic".
Nothing could be further from the truth, each thing must be judged according to its own merits and its own uses. Most things can be either toxic or life saving according to their applications and dosages.
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:46 pm
@odenskrigare,
everything is a poison under the right circumstances

Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 06:59 pm
@prothero,
prothero;87506 wrote:
There is a strange and erroneous notion circulating that anything that comes from nature is "good for you"


odenskrigare;87507 wrote:
everything is a poison under the right circumstances


Yup, which brings us back to one of the major elements of evolution: homeostasis. Both cells and organisms tightly regulate ions, water, acid/base balance, soluble gases, and many molecules that either occur naturally or are derived from digestion. This process is highly adapted to the environment the organism inhabits. I mean look at archaebacteria, which inhabit some of the most extreme environments on earth, and are adapted to all sorts of hostile conditions.
0 Replies
 
Pathfinder
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 07:08 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;87500 wrote:
Thalidomide is back in use for various things like leprosy-induced neuropathy and for severe aphthous ulcers. It's a useful drug for some things. DDT is back in use as an indoor residual spray for malaria prevention. It takes research to learn how to use things safely -- but sounds like you would just throw these things out rather than figure out how to safely use them.



throw them out? No.


But you know darned well it should not have been mass marketed when it was as a safe drug, THAt is the issue, not what it might still today. Cmon u know better than that Aedes.
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 07:15 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;87509 wrote:
But you know darned well it should not have been mass marketed when it was as a safe drug, THAt is the issue
There was insufficient study to market it as they had.

Pathfinder;87509 wrote:
Cmon u know better than that Aedes.
You're taking me too much at face value. Of course I know better. I sometimes feel that you discuss things in black and white terms, and the real world is seldom so simple. I'm just trying to add dimensions to the conversation.
0 Replies
 
odenskrigare
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 07:22 pm
@odenskrigare,
one instance of ethical violations invalidates the entire epistemology of the scientific method
 

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