Is Thought the Actual Force Behind Creation

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;86210 wrote:

Have you never found yourself confronted by the realization that everything you ever believed was wrong?

No, I am always open to being wrong so I just take it as a learning lesson and proceed.

TickTockMan;86210 wrote:

I think that is an epiphany everyone should have at least once in their life. It keeps the pipes clean, so to speak.

Heck, I am changing my views all the time. I welcome the learning experience.

TickTockMan;86210 wrote:

Would you find it depressing? Liberating? What changes, if any, would you make in the way you live your life?

I change my attitudes, things that I might be doing, the way I relate to people. I definitely like talking to people about my new learning experience. It is great! Most of the time people just don't care thought. They are too busy learning their own lessons. Changing direction is a great part of life.

TickTockMan;86210 wrote:

One could also ask the question conversely: what if it were revealed to you that life does indeed have meaning. That, in fact, the paths of our wanderings are as full of meaning as Indra's net is full of jewels.

What then? Now we know. Now where to, Kimosabe?

Well, that is how I feel. Sometimes I get into the dumps and I figure out how to pull myself out by doing something new. I am 58. I've been through lots in my life and will be through lots more by the time I hit 100. So ups and downs, and coping with new situation in life, is part of what I have learned to do. When I am really, really down, I just remember it is going to turn up pretty soon. So far it always has.

Rich

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@Pathfinder,

It is exactly that sort of epiphany that has brought me to where I am today in my thinking tick tock,

And the fact is that there is no prrof that life is the way you proposed it so why would I subject myself to thinking that wayin the first place.

This thread is about whether or not thought plays any part in the reality that people create by interacting with their environment.

If I choose to have children, and one of them becomes a world leader that creates dynamic change in the world, than my thought has altered reality in a way. Just one example.

If I think to move a rock from one place to another I have altered the landscape and altered the reality of that world.

Can we take these lowest degrees of interaction to any higher plane of thinking? It is not a discussion of whether or not it matters that I move a rock, but the fact that I can, and how does it change anything. In other words, what is reality but what we make of it by our individual choices and interactions within it? And is there an aspect to reality that remains untouched by our walk through it. is there an aspect of creation that cannot be altered or affected by mans involvement? At the tender age of 51, I am FAAAR too young to be worrying about these things! Laughing

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;86234 wrote:

This thread is about whether or not thought plays any part in the reality that people create by interacting with their environment.

Sorry. Didn't mean to hijack your thread.

Pathfinder;86234 wrote:

If I think to move a rock from one place to another I have altered the landscape and altered the reality of that world. Can we take these lowest degrees of interaction to any higher plane of thinking? It is not a discussion of whether or not it matters that I move a rock, but the fact that I can, and how does it change anything. In other words, what is reality but what we make of it by our individual choices and interactions within it? And is there an aspect to reality that remains untouched by our walk through it. is there an aspect of creation that cannot be altered or affected by mans involvement?

Where I find that it begins to get really interesting is when one considers whether or not the action of moving the rock is really one's own choice.

If someone else comes along and finds the rock that you moved, determines its placement is unacceptable and moves it somewhere else, how much of that action is truly their own?

Have they too just become a cog in some vast deterministic machine?

Or am I once again hijacking your thread in a direction you did not intend?

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;86273 wrote:

Have they too just become a cog in some vast deterministic machine?

Or am I once again hijacking your thread in a direction you did not intend?

Well, one can take the view of extreme determinism, but then it really does leave life sort of meaningless and certainly can send someone into the dumps.

All, I can say is that it seems like I am making decisions on what direction I want to take, but I do accept that I am constantly being influenced by all that surrounds me. So it is more like a wave that is suggesting that I go this way or that way, but I have a choice, using Will, to possibly try a different direction.

In many ways, this viewpoint that I have embraced, surprisingly to me, is very similar to the deBroglie-Bohm interpretation of Quantum physics where a quantum force is carrying the particle. This is how I feel. Like a sailor on an ocean navigating through the waves.

Now, there is no reason for anyone to embrace my viewpoint of life. We choose what we want (I think), but the other viewpoints seem to leave me empty of purpose and meaning.

If this viewpoint is my choice then it is my choice. It is my thoughts and it is creating my perspective of my life. However, if I have no choice, and it is all deterministic, then I am what I am anyway. However, it seems that I do have a choice, via my thoughts, to create this viewpoint of life.

Rich

0 Replies

@Pathfinder,

This is the most infernal sort of dualism (hidden inside a bunch of words).

The idea that OUR HUMAN thought precedes or creates existence is arbitrary and ego-centric to say the least. It is fundamentally NO DIFFERENT than saying the Abrahamic God created the world.

To say that our consciousness is in the least bit responsible for creation is to put humanity into an Ideal plane, over and above that which we are actually an inextricable part (ie, reality), and into a fantasy-world where we create our own realities.

But we do not create our own realities, we create our perception thereof, and therefore alter the way we react to, cope with, and understand reality. This has direct and indirect effects on the course of causality, but does not in any way go to say that we are creators of reality anymore than the ant that I just crushed is. Reality itself does not care what we think of it. We are not gods but creatures dependent upon biological process to survive.

You are afraid to shatter your desperate need to elevate your ego above reality itself. This weakness, this insecurity, this spiritual decadence, has been elevated to the status of Virtue in modern man, when it is in fact the reason why civilization is bound to fail. Civilization is dependent upon Man seeing himself above nature: he believes that his THOUGHT/SPIRIT/GOD (whatever you want to call it) is above nature, that we are, on some SPIRITUAL level, exempt from nature's laws. From this we feel the entitlement to **** on all over it, to pollute it, to wipe out entire species of animals without batting an eye. But nature is far more powerful than our THOUGHT. Our THOUGHT is not going to stop monolithic tidal waves from destroying everything and everyone in its path. Have you ever witnessed the fragility of the human enterprise firsthand? My guess is no, or you would not be purporting these ignorant views.

Dualism is a tough skin to shed, but it is necessary. You think you're very clever by masking it in pseudo-logic, calling it "TO" instead of God (strictly semantic difference) and a denying "mainstream" interpretations of religion, but you are nothing more than an average hypocrite.

2 Replies

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey;86293 wrote:

To say that our consciousness is in the least bit responsible for creation is to put humanity into an Ideal plane,

Only if one takes the position that consciousness is solely human. I do not. I believe that consciousness permeates the universe and is evolving everywhere and that it manifests in many forms, the physical human body being but one of them.

Rich

0 Replies

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey;86293 wrote:

The idea that OUR HUMAN thought precedes or creates existence is arbitrary and ego-centric to say the least. It is fundamentally NO DIFFERENT than saying the Abrahamic God created the world.

. . . as I noted in post #16.

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@Pathfinder,

Quote:

Only if one takes the position that consciousness is solely human. I do not. I believe that consciousness permeates the universe and is evolving everywhere and that it manifests in many forms, the physical human body being but one of them.

That belief is a load of dualistic nonsense that has no basis in the experience of reality.

Once again you are being ego-centric. Your consciousness is SO VITAL to your reality, that you believe that consciousness, or some version thereof, MUST BE VITAL to the rest of reality, the rest of creation. You cannot conceive of a world without your precious consciousness, so you mangle the evidence to fit your conclusion that you are a god and that the universe revolves around your experience of it.

Do you not understand how ego-centric and close-minded this is?

1 Reply

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey;86299 wrote:

That belief is a load of dualistic nonsense that has no basis in the experience of reality.

Once again you are being ego-centric.

And once again, I must point out:

The highest, as the lowest, form of criticism is a mode of autobiography.
Picture of Dorian Gray
Oscar Wilde

Basically, it is called projection in psychology. Your own mind is telling you something. I think it is worth listening to.

I'll tell you something funny, from my childhood. I think you and others may get a kick out of it:

I'm rubber
You're glue
Whatever you say
Bounces off me
And sticks to you.

Isn't this marvelous, and said so lucidly by children. A childhood interpretation of Oscar Wilde. I think children work life out so nicely.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;86301 wrote:

I think children work life out so nicely.

True.

Don't you wish we could all live in Never Never Land?

1 Reply

@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey;86306 wrote:

True.

Don't you wish we could all live in Never Never Land?

I enjoy reading myths and fairy tales. Some of the best moments in my life were watching those Disney movies when I was young. I would say that Peter Pan was very nice, but I loved the songs in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs and When You Wish Upon a Star is a classic:

When you wish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are ..

Lovely,

YouTube - When you wish upon a star-disney moments

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;86317 wrote:

When you wish upon a star
Makes no difference who you are ..

Why am I having a flashback to when I was about 7 years old and my grandpa said to me, "Wish in one hand and sh*t in the other hand, and tell me which one fills up first."

That was 40 years ago. No wonder I have issues.

1 Reply

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;86322 wrote:

Why am I having a flashback to when I was about 7 years old and my grandpa said to me, "Wish in one hand and sh*t in the other hand, and tell me which one fills up first."

That was 40 years ago. No wonder I have issues.

I have a different view of life.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;86342 wrote:

I have a different view of life.

Rich

So do ostriches.

Ha ha. I'm just trying to disrupt your Qi with my idiot comments.
But seriously, you do tend to cling to your view quite tightly.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Whoooooaa there rhino baby.

This si all hypothethetical. Is that a word?

Im not tryin to pull the wool over anyuone eyes there bro. This is a ideology that is well documented out there and becoming very popular. I just wanted to see what other in here thought about it.

I actually do not lean toward this teaching at all myself.

I find your thinking on it to be more in line with mine as a matter of fact.

BUt having said that, are we so ready to toss out the affect that our interactions have on the environemnt that we live in? Can you really say that your thoughts and choices and their resulting actions do not have some direct effect on the reality around you when they are acted upon?

---------- Post added 08-28-2009 at 07:26 PM ----------

I personally have invited Bright Noon to return here. I am anxious to hear more of his thoughts on the First Cause dilemma.

Does anyone else have any thoughts to induce more on that line of thinking?

If what we know that exists now, has simply always existed, does that imply that thought has also always existed and has simply been increasing in collective and quaility?

0 Replies

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;86346 wrote:

So do ostriches.

Ha ha. I'm just trying to disrupt your Qi with my idiot comments.
But seriously, you do tend to cling to your view quite tightly.

I love it when people reveal themselves.

Rich

---------- Post added 08-28-2009 at 07:28 PM ----------

Pathfinder;86350 wrote:

If what we know exists now, has simply always existed, does that imply that thought has also always existed and has simply been increasing in collective and quaility?

Yes, this would be my point of view. That a quality of consciousness always existed and evolved into energy and mass.

Rich

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

And if thought has always existed and has no origin, does that mean that thought existed before the human brain was formed? Is this sort of thinking suggesting that thought is something supernatural to the brain?

---------- Post added 08-28-2009 at 07:32 PM ----------

so what u r saying Rich is that the origin, whatever that may be, and whenever that may have taken place, was some form of first consciousness. Would that be accurate?

That no matter how far back one travels into the past, there would be some form of overall consciousness governing the universe.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;86376 wrote:

And if thought has always existed and has no origin, does that mean that thought existed before the human brain was formed? Is this sort of thinking suggesting that thought is something supernatural to the brain?

I would say that the brain manifested out of thought. If you look at the brain and spinal cord, you might notice that it looks like a reception/transmission antenna.

http://www.thinkfirst.org/images/BrainSpine.JPG

So, the brain/spine system along with the rest of the nervous system is designed to collect and transmit information.

Notice, that the spine runs throughout the body and provides information to the organs. This is where the Daoist got the idea that the primary spirits of the body (Shen/Spirit, Hun/Soul, Zhi/Will, Po/Physical Body, Yi/Creative Mind and Awareness), reside in the organs, and are communicating with each other and the outside world through the brain/spine/nervous system.

So, the human body, is a mechanism for Consciousness (the type we are talking about), to oberve, explore, create and share.

Interestingly, by using this metaphysics, the ancient Chinese physicians developed an excellent model for treating human health conditions. So, it is very practical in addition to its metaphysical implications.

Looking at it from a Daoist point of view.

Rich

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

I still have a hard time thinking in terms of 'always existed'.

I guess my brain is just wired in such a way that locks out what seems to be illogical.

However, that thinking does seem to be the only way that it could ever make sense.

BUT then again, I have to ask myself, given the complexity, given the vast amount that we do not begin to understand, and given the serenity of the Mystery as though it dares us to even try to uncover it, why does it even have to make sense?

Why does there have to be an answer? Just because something does not fit into what I would declare logical to my brain and or mind, doesn't mean that I have some sort of lordship over the logic of the universe does it.

Maybe, we just simply are not physically and mentally able to comprehend period.

So with that in mind, when we consider the origin of what we exist in, and we attempt to ask the logical questions, or at least what seem logical to us, maybe we are asking questions that have no answers because they are questions that should not be asked in the first place because of their nonsense to what is actually real.

Example: if a person undertook the task of finding out why a black cat is white. If someone took that task upon themselves, they would be foiled from the start because the reality is that the cat is not white and we could look for the answer to that forever and never come up with an answer because the cat is not white in the first place.

Is this making any ******* sense to anyone besides me? lol

---------- Post added 08-28-2009 at 07:45 PM ----------

Rich can you tell me where to find out more about this chinese philosophy again. I know you posted it here somewhere but spare me the search would ya old buddy,lol. They have certainly done amazing things with acupuncture.

---------- Post added 08-28-2009 at 08:03 PM ----------

Logic would demand that something must come from something, and that it would seem impossible that there was ever a time when nothing existed, and then that soemthing was spawned from that nothingness.

But that is the logic of the human mind confined by the ability of the human brain and consciousness.

What if the black cat really is just BLACK?

What if the universe really is just THERE?

If this is the case than trying to find answers to the question of the origin is a wild goose chase.

BUT , how does this then equate with what we would call meaning and purpose?

The biologists enjoy a life that has no moral responsibilities. Everything is merely biological function. Man has no spirit and answers to no judgment. Consciousness is a simple matter of electrodes firing in brain matter. Man is nothing more than biological function.

Thus we have their human being placed in an existence with no overall governor or overseer of creation. Everything goes! No Rules! Free for All.

And yet, we all know that this is not true don't we? Is our whole idea of morality, moral conscience, good will toward man, justice and character just a figment of our imagination?

You see, no matter which way I look at it, origin or no origin ,God or no God, creation or no creation, evolution or not, it always boils down to the same thing, the only real evidence we ever have to work with is the fact that man is more than just flesh and blood, and that there is a reason why we try the way we do. There is a spirit to man that supersedes everything else and stands in the background hounding every attempt to define it or uncover its mystery.

It drives the scientist mad. It confuses the religious into blind faith. It eludes the efforts of the greatest philosophers.

This mystery behind the consciousness of the human being that creates his identity as an individual, and its identity as a species, is always in the background of every theology, ideology and theory that man can devise because it is the essence of man, and we cannot seem to go anywhere without it no matter how hard we try.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

I still have a hard time thinking in terms of 'always existed'.

Me too. But I just look at the evidence of transcendental souls souls such as inherited characteristics, innate skills, etc., and it does seem like things just keep evolving and evolving and evolving.

I think the concept of always existed has to be studied in context of what is time. When we are asleep, time feels totally different. Like there is not an always is. Rather, it feels like it is all there. Currently, I am exploring ideas that may may add more meaning of this phenomenon to me.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

I guess my brain is just wired in such a way that locks out what seems to be illogical.

Yes, it may be so, that we hide things from ourselves. Heraclitus liked to say that Nature loves to hide.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

BUT then again, I have to ask myself, given the complexity, given the vast amount that we do not begin to understand, and given the serenity of the Mystery as though it dares us to even try to uncover it, why does it even have to make sense?

I think no more so than a game of hide-and-seek or peek-a-boo.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

Maybe, we just simply are not physically and mentally able to comprehend period.

I think that things take time, and I occupy myself not just with these questions but life in general. And by actively participating in many aspects of life, I pick up clues. d'Espagnat felt that only artists can get a glimpse of what is behind the curtain.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

Is this making any ******* sense to anyone besides me? lol

Yes. I think these are the type of questions that helps one change perspective and changes the route of the journey.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

Rich can you tell me where to find out more about this chinese philosophy again. I know you posted it here somewhere but spare me the search would ya old buddy,lol. They have certainly done amazing things with acupuncture

Sure thing. What type of readings and subject matter are you looking for?

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

Logic would demand that something must come from something, and that it would seem impossible that there was ever a time when nothing existed, and then that something was spawned from that nothingness.

I think there is a requirement to look at things from a completely different perspective. Some people seem to be comfortable with the questions of life. I think it may take experience of old souls. By feeling is that I have plenty of time.

Pathfinder;86381 wrote:

If this is the case than trying to find answers to the question of the origin is a wild goose chase.

It depends upon what your goals are. Mine is just to explore and I choose many paths to explore. I am involved with dancing, sports, music, philosophy, art, walking, fiction, etc. There is lots and lots to explore and to enjoy. For me, finding the origin is nothing more than exploring what is there right before my eyes. Smile

Rich

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Is Thought the Actual Force Behind Creation

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