Can it be proven that God is a Coward?

@Pusyphus,

Haha, the meteor would be a nice touch. Maybe something as simple as announcing his actual presence would be nice. It certainly worked in the Old Testament, where it seemed he was talking to everyone! Yet it seems these days there are no voices, no ringing shouts in the mountains, when just the knowledge of there being a god would suffice to calm down pretty much everybody.

Still, better a life as a blissful mindless zombie than a horrifically self-conscious being. Sadly I think we're all a bit beyond that 'mindless' stage, and there's no going back!

1 Reply

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

Yes we should act, that much I agree with. We shouldn't just rely on a god to do everything for us, however that doesn't mean he should do nothing. You seem to bypass the differences between us and god, in that we are finite beings contained within the prison of time with limited powers. Even if we were to individually do something to affect the noble causes or the greater good it would only be a pin sized dent on a medicine ball sized problem. God, on the other hand, could hypothetically turn the medicine ball into rays of sunshine and we would all dance under the happy tree. However he doesn't even seem to contribute more than the masses of pins we try to stick into it. It's not really a question of 'Why doesn't god do everything for us?' More one of 'Why doesn't god do anything for us?' I know what some would say, that 'god moves in mysterious ways', but surely if he was doing enough to make an impact then we would notice.

Don't worry about the sarcasm, William, it's all about the bright side. Still it's not really my case to argue, more of a general debate. Though I will look further! Thank you.

In regard to the highlighted portion of your post:

(1).What if we are not finite beings? As my signature suggests, that is precisely our problem. It is because we have determined our time is "finite", we do not put the emphasis on the future we need to. Even if we are not, but we act and believe as though we are, we consciously strive to insure tomorrow is better that today. Hell, our children deserve that. They didn't ask to be here, we kinda forced them to be.

(2) Now what do you suppose would be the outcome of that? Have you ever been around a "spoiled" child? What can we possibly learn if someone constantly cleans up what we constantly mess up?

William

1 Reply

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

Haha, the meteor would be a nice touch. Maybe something as simple as announcing his actual presence would be nice. It certainly worked in the Old Testament, where it seemed he was talking to everyone! Yet it seems these days there are no voices, no ringing shouts in the mountains, when just the knowledge of there being a god would suffice to calm down pretty much everybody.

Still, better a life as a blissful mindless zombie than a horrifically self-conscious being. Sadly I think we're all a bit beyond that 'mindless' stage, and there's no going back!

What worked in the Old Testament? God revealing himself certainly didn't prevent genocide, but just the opposite. Check out the link to another thread on this forum; http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-religion/3253-try-reconcile-numbers-chapter-31-god-benevolent.html

Simple belief in God is enough to get some folks riled up so that they're willing to commit suicide just for the chance to kill someone else. I shun to think of what those sort of people would do if they knew God exists. You may be asking for more than you're willing to bargain for if you want God to reveal himself. As you point out, there's no going back to a simpler, more innocent and naive state of existence. Well, the same would be true if God suddenly showed up. There's no going back to fix it if it turns out that we were better off not knowing.

1 Reply

@William,

William;43583 wrote:

(1).What if we are not finite beings? As my signature suggests, that is precisely our problem. It is because we have determined our time is "finite", we do not put the emphasis on the future we need to. Even if we are not, but we act and believe as though we are, we consciously strive to insure tomorrow is better that today. Hell, our children deserve that. They didn’t ask to be here, we kinda forced them to be.

Or perhaps deeming our time 'finite' makes us look at the future as we are supposed to. There seem to be multiple outcomes in facing ultimate mortality, throwing aside the ideas of souls for the moment. First we can all just sit around and wait for it to happen, doing absolutely nothing as the world crumbles around us, or second we can strive to make our and others mortal lives the best that they can be. What is the point in living once if you can't live once that well?

William;43583 wrote:

(2) Now what do you suppose would be the outcome of that? Have you ever been around a "spoiled" child? What can we possibly learn if someone constantly cleans up what we constantly mess up?

Yes I have, and they are unbearably insufferable. But is it too much to ask for days similar to the Old Testament, when people actually knew beyond doubt that God existed, because if they said he didn't all they had to do was look at the steaming remains of Sodom and Gomorrah. These days doubt of an afterlife and an ultimate judge is at least some cause for horrible acts committed in these modern times, some people destroying their own lives because of their feeling of the crushing inevitability of death. If god merely made his presence known then mankind would come to some sort of halt due to an ever present fear of hell, ceasing crime almost entirely because now they would know that they're being watched.

Also, I love this thing -> Very Happy

2 Replies

@Solace,

Solace;43600 wrote:

What worked in the Old Testament? God revealing himself certainly didn't prevent genocide, but just the opposite. Check out the link to another thread on this forum; http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-religion/3253-try-reconcile-numbers-chapter-31-god-benevolent.html

Simple belief in God is enough to get some folks riled up so that they're willing to commit suicide just for the chance to kill someone else. I shun to think of what those sort of people would do if they knew God exists. You may be asking for more than you're willing to bargain for if you want God to reveal himself. As you point out, there's no going back to a simpler, more innocent and naive state of existence. Well, the same would be true if God suddenly showed up. There's no going back to fix it if it turns out that we were better off not knowing.

Hmm, true enough, but what if this was the god of the 'new and improved' image of god from the New Testament? Though being ever forgiving would be a crippling factor of divine justice, I'm sure that if god were truly present he would actually point out which bits we have right and which bits were inserted/misinterpreted, such as you pointed out with the issue of suicide bombers. You make a point, I see that we're better off not knowing, that we don't know which image of god would come if he did. I suppose that's more of an 'ignorance is bliss' argument than something religious, but would we really want to base religion on ignorance of the one true god? Everyone has their own interpretation, but which one, if god is a definite being, is right?

0 Replies

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

If god merely made his presence known then mankind would come to some sort of halt due to an ever present fear of hell, ceasing crime almost entirely because now they would know that they're being watched.

Also, I love this thing ->

But would that make humanity morally better? It depends on your meta-ethics.

0 Replies

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

Or perhaps deeming our time 'finite' makes us look at the future as we are supposed to. There seem to be multiple outcomes in facing ultimate mortality, throwing aside the ideas of souls for the moment. First we can all just sit around and wait for it to happen, doing absolutely nothing as the world crumbles around us, or second we can strive to make our and others mortal lives the best that they can be. What is the point in living once if you can't live once that well?

That's precisely the point. Kolbe, since I have been old enough to "think for myself" I have learned to take 'everything" man writes with a grain of salt. Considering all the edits, translations, changes, additions and subtractions the bible has gone through, plus some of the unbelievable metaphors many believe to the letter, it lies at the top of the pile. It never states where heaven is. We assume it is "someplace else".

That never made since to me. Common sense tells me, if there is a heaven, we have to get it right here first. Like in school or the way school used to be. Before you got passed to a "higher grade" you had to pass the one you were in first. No one knows what is in store for us, but to think death is an "escape", you are right, does create an problem as some of faith seem to be waiting for the axe to fall. I have addressed that in other posts. We have problems on both ends of the spectrum here. Those who have amassed the greatest wealth, don't want this life to end; whereas those of some faith can't wait for it to end. So you see we have created a bit of a problem. IMO, the ones who are doing the real damage are those at the top of the heap. Most could give a damn about heaven, they just don't want to give up the gravy train and could care less about what the future holds. Constantine was one of those who couldn't imagine an existence other that the exalted one he had and stuck all the writings of "reincarnation" out of the bible. Or so it is written.

By deeming out time finite, it is understandable why we would strive to get all out of that life before we kick the bucket. It that how you feel? Well Kolbe, that is the reality you are living in. Is this how we are supposed to live? I don't think so. Your last statement lies the answer: "....we can strive to make our 'AND OTHERS' mortal lives 'THE BEST THEY CAN BE'. As long as we think we only get one shot at life, we could care less about others as we strive to amass as much as life has to offer in one short mortal spree. It's called greed. I don't think God will let us "rape another eden", do you? Thereby common sense tells me we need to do all we can to get it right here first and you have truly identified the problem.

Once we understand or believe we are here for the long term, and we are all in this together and stop measuring a man's worth by the money he has in his pocket, then and only then will be begin to solve the problems that face us. That, my friend, is when you will see "God in Motion". Smile

William

1 Reply

@William,

William wrote:

That's precisely the point. Kolbe, since I have been old enough to "think for myself" I have learned to take 'everything" man writes with a grain of salt. Considering all the edits, translations, changes, additions and subtractions the bible has gone through, plus some of the unbelievable metaphors many believe to the letter, it lies at the top of the pile.

Whatever you think of the truth of the Bible, I think there is good evidence to suggest the actual text has not significantly changed since it was first written, especially the New Testament. The earliest manuscript copy we have is from 125 AD putting it 25-50 years after it was first written. The next best attested document in the whole of the ancient world is Homers Iliad written c. 900BC, the earliest copy being from c.400 BC, giving a 500 year gap.
Apparently the NT documents agree 99.5% with other, the remaining differences being about spelling and word order, while documents for the Iliad agree 95%.
Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?

1 Reply

@ACWaller,

ACWaller wrote:

Whatever you think of the truth of the Bible, I think there is good evidence to suggest the actual text has not significantly changed since it was first written, especially the New Testament. The earliest manuscript copy we have is from 125 AD putting it 25-50 years after it was first written. The next best attested document in the whole of the ancient world is Homers Iliad written c. 900BC, the earliest copy being from c.400 BC, giving a 500 year gap.
Apparently the NT documents agree 99.5% with other, the remaining differences being about spelling and word order, while documents for the Iliad agree 95%.
Is Our Copy of the Bible a Reliable Copy of the Original?

AC, it is not my aim to question your belief's. Not one little bit. These are my perceptions based on my knowledge and of course assumptions. I like simplicity and anything that is hard to read, understand or interpret; or can be intrepreted to mean different things, I usually pay very little attention to it. Just a habit of mine. One that's been good to me. If I can read it and understand it, it needs no editing, interpretation or changing. it is just a matter if I chose to believe it as truth or not. Absolute, bonified, 100% truth is a slippery little critter and just because that is what is "written" doesn't make it so. If you chose to believe it, that is your decision. As far as God is concerned, I personally don't think there is a building in the world that can contain all that God is. Much less one you can hold in your hand. Thanks for your comment.

William

0 Replies

@Solace,

Solace wrote:

It isn't my definition of how it is but rather it's the thread starter's definition. How can we suppose to hold God to account for the suffering in the world while we sitting around doing absolutely nothing about it? That's just us saying, "Hey God, I don't give a **** about the world's problems, but you should!" Why should God give a crap when we don't? It's our world to live in after all. If we mess it up then it's our problem, not his. Yet we expect him to solve our problems while we sit around doing nothing...

Well, let's use the bible as an [albeit poor] example of god's pathetic attempt to make life meaningful for us. Assuming it is an authentic tool, the bible is intended (in part) to convince christians that "here's how the major events will unfold to bring about the end of the world, now watch and be amazed." I fall into the group of humans who would not be impressed if the one who created earth could also follow a simple schedule. So, what are we to make of these fabulous predictions? Better yet, how could anyone care, especially if it appears to be implied that this god will figure out a way to make these catastrophes happen one way or another?

Justin wrote:

Who commits the genocide? Who created the Gods? How in God's name is God going to step in on what man is doing?... when it's man who created the God in the first place??? It's man who is the coward. It is man who commits genocide. It is man who is the murderer, raper, evil doer... not God. It is man who brings unbalance to a balanced universe. It is not something we need to look up to God for help but look deep inside of our own selves for answers.

When will man stop using God as a scapegoat and take the responsibility where the responsibility lies?

Well, the point is that there does appear to be a creator (of us). When a ball club doesn't do well in the division, one season after another after another, then the first thing you do is fire the manager.

Icon wrote:

It troubles me that none of you have brought up a simple point.

This hypothetical God would not interfere. He cannot interfere.

This hypothetical God gave us free will (if you are a student of theology, then you know what this means) and told us to help ourselves. He is not going to interfere because it would mean removing the most precious gift he has given us.

If the bible is correct... God created us, gave us a world to live in, gave us rules to live by, emotions to feel, people to love, intelligence with which to seek, defends us from Satan, sends angels to watch over us in times of need.... now you want him to babysit us too. Frankly, I think your problem is that you have no appreciation for this hypothetical God.

For generations he has watched over us. I think it is about time that we learned to watch over ourselves.

...[my] problem is that have no appreciation for this hypothetical god?

Philosophically speaking, why is that a problem per se?

God cannot interfere? If that's so, and we're all just supposed to go along with the charade, and pass his little test, then what advice do you have for the ones who cannot bring themselves to play the stupid game?

Seriously, do you have some advice for us...?

1 Reply

@Pusyphus,

Pusyphus wrote:

Well, let's use the bible as an [albeit poor] example of god's pathetic attempt to make life meaningful for us. Assuming it is an authentic tool, the bible is intended (in part) to convince christians that "here's how the major events will unfold to bring about the end of the world, now watch and be amazed." I fall into the group of humans who would not be impressed if the one who created earth could also follow a simple schedule. So, what are we to make of these fabulous predictions? Better yet, how could anyone care, especially if it appears to be implied that this god will figure out a way to make these catastrophes happen one way or another?

Why do we need God to make life meaningful for us? Do you mean to say that we can't even manage to do that much on our own? So now not only are we blaming God for all the nasty crap that we do to each other, like genocide, but we're also blaming God because we're too shallow to manage to give meaning to our lives... and you think that God should give a crap about us!!! I ain't one for believing in the doom and gloom of prophecy, but after laying all our faults as well as the meaninglessness of our lives at God's feet and blaming him for it, I couldn't be surprised in the least if he did end the world in catastrophe.

1 Reply

@Solace,

It is easy to understand that people naturally want the most out of life. If not, then why should we want paradise? Yet, what we see in this material world is that people get to the top, or at least ahead, by lying and cheating and stealing. Meanwhile, the more indigenous people of the earth, who lead more principled lives, ironically, are gradually getting exterminated from "civilization".

So, without a word from this coward god, the underlying lesson is to deceive, to cheat, and to steal. If we otherwise lead what we have been programmed to believe is a righteous existence, while holding heaven as our motivation, then we are no better. It can be successfully argued that we could not ever know that we live righteous lives, unless we reject this coward god and the heaven that he offers.

I don't mean to offend this god. But surely, he would already know this. That is, unless he is not only a coward, but also a jackass.

1 Reply

@Pusyphus,

The more principled lives of indegnous people... oh, you mean like the principles of human sacrifice and cannibalism, right?

People are people and, civilized or primitive, we all have vices, some of which is downright horrific. And, yet again, you are blaming God for our vices. God isn't the coward; people who blame him instead of taking responsibility for their own faults and actions are cowards. And most certainly they are the very epitome of jackasses.

1 Reply

@Solace,

You seem to take criticism of god personally? Is there a reason for that? Are you able to accept a god that makes mistakes? Do you feel that you must speak on behalf of a god that chooses not to speak? Must you fantasize about imaginary beings, at the expense of logic?

You can blame people all you want. The facts are clear. One story goes, there is a god that made a book that predicts things to come. From this, two conclusions can be drawn. One is that this god is magical and cowardly, and the other is that this god is cowardly controlling this world from behind the scenes to necessitate corruption. The latter case makes more sense. If you value common sense, and that's the type of god that you prefer to worship, then what's your problem?

1 Reply

@Pusyphus,

You talk about common sense while blaming God for man's misdeeds...? What I take personally is this idea of passing blame off on anybody, be it God or otherwise. When people do things that are wrong, it's their fault, not anybody else's. Can you explain to me why you want to blame God for the bad things that people do? Is no one responsible for themselves anymore?

2 Replies

@Solace,

Hi all. The problem of evil, which I think is the main problem being discussed here, is a very difficult one, at least for me. And I've spent lots of time thinking about it, debating, reading, etc. And I'm still not done with it by any means... So I'm not downplaying that issue at all.

But, the question of cowardice, as originally posed, is empty. The definition of a coward is: One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain. So the motive for in-action must be fear, and I don't think that an omnipotent (all-powerful) god would be motivated by fear. Maybe indifference, curiosity, sadistic pleasure, or maybe something more noble... but not fear.

2 Replies

@Solace,

Solace, when you say "people", I take it you refer to the billions that are said to be represented by a handful of politicians, the policy-makers, the ones who set the course of human history from their corporate jet-set conference rooms. Those billions are not spoken for. You do not see the will of the "people". When we speak of attrocities that no doubt take their place throughout our history, they are not the acts of the people. They are the acts of the few who pull the strings that tie them to a coward god. The "people" are not responsible.

And let's not get into the whole "voting" schpiel because, if the ones who have always been in control are the ones counting the votes, then that argument doesn't hold a drop of water.

So, when we talk about god, the question remains. Either one exists or it doesn't. Either way, the situation is the same. If there is a god, the fair assumption is that this god is indeed aware, and turns a blind eye toward corruption. If a god exists, then the case has been made that it is a cowardly god. No amount of chastising can change that. Why blame the people?

If people are to blame, it is for believing in such a pathetic fairy-tale as opposed to embracing reality. The scenario, in which a cowardly god runs away from taking action against corruption, is supported by evidence all over the world. What kind of action should god take? Don't ask me! I am not a god.

NeitherExtreme wrote:

Hi all. The problem of evil, which I think is the main problem being discussed here, is a very difficult one, at least for me. And I've spent lots of time thinking about it, debating, reading, etc. And I'm still not done with it by any means... So I'm not downplaying that issue at all.

But, the question of cowardice, as originally posed, is empty. The definition of a coward is: One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain. So the motive for in-action must be fear, and I don't think that an omnipotent (all-powerful) god would be motivated by fear. Maybe indifference, curiosity, sadistic pleasure, or maybe something more noble... but not fear.

What gives you the idea that god is omnipotent??

1 Reply

@NeitherExtreme,

Pusyphus,

It seems you want a God to lead us around on a leash. Or at least it is that impression as you are beleaguering a point of what a poor job He is doing in that He is afraid to give us the help we need. If He would just do His job we wouldn't have to be accountable for anything and just play all day long under his watchful eye.

Many here have offered alternatives to your line of thought yet it seems you are determined to blame God for whatever reason and I am sure you have yours. In all probability it is that it relieves you of all culpability as it is much easier to point a finger of blame. All I can say, IMO, waiting around for God to do something really neat so we can now believe in his existence is a "child's game". Such as "show me a sign" and then I will believe in you. Do you honestly think God is that irresponsible. Sorry for my using "human terms". I do so just to make a point, that's all. I mentioned the scenario of the "spoiled children" and it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.

What is it you are trying to accomplish? It is evident most who are offering their thoughts don't matter to you. If it is necessary for you to convince us that God is a coward, it seems, if what other are posting is any measure of your success, you are not faring well on this one. I think what is truly stifling your effort is your attempt to associate God with human frailties, such as cowardice. You have to go a little deeper than that, I think. I understand, as I think most others do to, what you are trying to say and are doing their best to aid you in reaching a deeper understanding. Name calling I don't think will accomplish much in any forum where answers are sincerely sought. Please don't take my post the wrong way. I am just trying to help you in your efforts. That's what we are all here for. Smile

Willam

1 Reply

@Pusyphus,

Pusyphus wrote:

Solace, when you say "people", I take it you refer to the billions that are said to be represented by a handful of politicians, the policy-makers, the ones who set the course of human history from their corporate jet-set conference rooms. Those billions are not spoken for. You do not see the will of the "people". When we speak of attrocities that no doubt take their place throughout our history, they are not the acts of the people. They are the acts of the few who pull the strings that tie them to a coward god. The "people" are not responsible.

And let's not get into the whole "voting" schpiel because, if the ones who have always been in control are the ones counting the votes, then that argument doesn't hold a drop of water.

So, when we talk about god, the question remains. Either one exists or it doesn't. Either way, the situation is the same. If there is a god, the fair assumption is that this god is indeed aware, and turns a blind eye toward corruption. If a god exists, then the case has been made that it is a cowardly god. No amount of chastising can change that. Why blame the people?

If people are to blame, it is for believing in such a pathetic fairy-tale as opposed to embracing reality. The scenario, in which a cowardly god runs away from taking action against corruption, is supported by evidence all over the world. What kind of action should god take? Don't ask me! I am not a god.

Tell me one genocide that has ever occured that was caused by only a few individuals.

You seem to have a lot of animosity for authority. I don't blame you particularly, but I wonder, if everyone in your government was removed and replaced with people that you to know to be decent and trustworthy, how long before someone comes along with a legitimate case of corruption against one or all of them? My guess is not very long. Would it be God's fault then too?

So how far does this go? How many of our problems, the evil that gets done in the world everyday, can we blame on God? If my buddy cheats on his wife, is God to blame for her pain? If someone steals your car, is it God's fault? If you steal someone else's car, is that God's fault too? If we're going to blame God because we have corrupt leaders then we might as well blame him for everything else too. Why not?

1 Reply

@William,

William wrote:

Pusyphus,

It seems you want a God to lead us around on a leash. Or at least it is that impression as you are beleaguering a point of what a poor job He is doing in that He is afraid to give us the help we need. If He would just do His job we wouldn't have to be accountable for anything and just play all day long under his watchful eye.

Many here have offered alternatives to your line of thought yet it seems you are determined to blame God for whatever reason and I am sure you have yours. In all probability it is that it relieves you of all culpability as it is much easier to point a finger of blame. All I can say, IMO, waiting around for God to do something really neat so we can now believe in his existence is a "child's game". Such as "show me a sign" and then I will believe in you. Do you honestly think God is that irresponsible. Sorry for my using "human terms". I do so just to make a point, that's all. I mentioned the scenario of the "spoiled children" and it seemed to go in one ear and out the other.

What is it you are trying to accomplish? It is evident most who are offering their thoughts don't matter to you. If it is necessary for you to convince us that God is a coward, it seems, if what other are posting is any measure of your success, you are not faring well on this one. I think what is truly stifling your effort is your attempt to associate God with human frailties, such as cowardice. You have to go a little deeper than that, I think. I understand, as I think most others do to, what you are trying to say and are doing their best to aid you in reaching a deeper understanding. Name calling I don't think will accomplish much in any forum where answers are sincerely sought. Please don't take my post the wrong way. I am just trying to help you in your efforts. That's what we are all here for.

Willam

Well, I appreciate your input William. I'm not really trying to accomplish much, beyond initiating a meaningful exchange here. I don't mean to offend anyone directly, and I wasn't aware that you guys already had it all figured out. I've assumed that there are a number of bright minds here, and that the ones who believe in a higher power would supply the bulk of the feedback.

But, I've already heard these responses before, and I'm not very impressed. In fact the only one who has actually addressed my sound argument, as it stands, is NeitherExtreme. He or she suggested that this hypothetical god could be characterized by something else, such as "indifference, curiosity, sadistic pleasure, or maybe something more noble...". Unfortunately, most of those are not great examples of critical thinking, except for the last one. I'm waiting for a sign of rational thought or deductive reasoning to support that, though, in place of assumptions.

This is a serious topic and, depending on the truth, could be the most important consideration in each of our lives. I know it's tough to avoid taking personally the criticism of something so dear. The point is that it could very well be a scandal, and a grave one at that. To deflect careful consideration over something so poignant is an irresponsible approach to life itself, IMHO. It's clear that most people don't give this issue the time of day, much less the concern that it deserves. I expected a bit more here, to be honest.

Solace wrote:

Tell me one genocide that has ever occured that was caused by only a few individuals.

You seem to have a lot of animosity for authority. I don't blame you particularly, but I wonder, if everyone in your government was removed and replaced with people that you to know to be decent and trustworthy, how long before someone comes along with a legitimate case of corruption against one or all of them? My guess is not very long. Would it be God's fault then too?

So how far does this go? How many of our problems, the evil that gets done in the world everyday, can we blame on God? If my buddy cheats on his wife, is God to blame for her pain? If someone steals your car, is it God's fault? If you steal someone else's car, is that God's fault too? If we're going to blame God because we have corrupt leaders then we might as well blame him for everything else too. Why not?

You make some interesting points. But, we're talking about whether or not this god has shown enough to be trusted. I mean, even if the f#@ker spent every single day with us, walking around or playing pool, would that be enough to trust him as an honest deity. Would that be enough to conclude the we are all going to heaven if we just do as he says? The answer is NO. Even that situation would demand an almost undue amount of faith. So, for some schmuck of a deity to throw a bunch of books out there for us to read is simply assinine. Or don't you agree?

1 Reply

Can it be proven that God is a Coward?

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