The problem of evil

Can the problem of evil be solved without giving up any of the divine attributes?

Evil, a God which is omnipotent and a God which is morally perfect; the problem of evil is the problem that revolves around the co-existence of the above. Arguably, when any two of these exist, it would be impossible for the third to co-exist. For if God is morally perfect, he would have created a world without evil. Yet evil exists, thus we are forced to conclude that either God is not morally perfect, or that he does not have the omnipotence to create a morally perfect world.

The credibility of some of the various defenses against this problem of evil will be examined in the following paragraphs. But first, what is evil? The commonly adopted definition of evil consists of two sub-classes, physical evil and moral evil. Physical evils consist of diseases, pain, and natural disasters such as earthquakes, famine et cetera. The problem of evil here is quite straight forward, why would a morally perfect God inflict such suffering on human kind if he had the power to prevent it. Moral evil, on the other hand, is the human capacity to perform evil actions. The question here is why an omnipotent God would allow humans to be capable of such deeds.

You really only have two choices here:
One is to live with the inherent contradiction of the traditional notion of an all powerful and all good god who permits or plans evil in his creation
or
Two is to question the traditional notion of gods attributes and action in the world. As you know I suggest number two is the route to go.

I offer a third choice to your two, Prothero, although it is somewhat more complex to describe: When God defines good and evil, it is for our guidance: we humans will progress spiritually and will be able to develop an ever advancing civilization if we adhere to good and shun evil acts. In the case of "physical evil", the cycle of birth, life, suffering and death are inherent to this physical realm, but this physical realm is mostly a means for tempering our spirits. Thus, those principles of morality that we humans must adhere to do not in any way apply to God. Even though in the human realm it is unjust if a ruler is not subject to the same laws as his subjects, God is much more than a mere human ruler.

The Bhuddist and Hindu concept of breaking out of the cycle of Samsara reminds us that we need to look to the long term benefit of our actions, so that we might develop spiritually to the point that we may progress beyond this realm of suffering. The fact that we suffer here in the physical realm, and that we do not like to suffer, serve to remind us not to inflict suffering upon other living beings, and to work towards a technology and a culture that will decrease the suffering caused by natural events. This is the basis of human morality. God allows, and has provided, both kinds of "evil" so that we might become good, but those things are only evil relative to our human actions, not to God.

Respectfully xris I don't have a God that god I wrote about is the result of a lively imagination, why people get so hot under the collar about it perplexes me. What I wrote could be my version of Genesis chapter 1

Evil is irrelevant. Those that believe in evil are simply confusing it for the Love of Self.

Evil is irrelevant. Those that believe in evil are simply confusing it for the Love of Self.

The notion of evil is based on the assumption
that some outcomes are more desirable, better than other outcomes.
The notion of evil is inherent to the notion of values.
The notion of values is inherent to morality.
If all outcomes are of equal value, no evil, no aesthetics, no ethics.
Welcome to deconstructive postmodernism the realm of absolute relativity.

Evil is irrelevant. Those that believe in evil are simply confusing it for the Love of Self.

Tell that to the victims of the NAZI holocaust, maybe dear Hitler was just lacking love he was so very altruistic was he not? :perplexed:

disagree

those that believe in evil , are confusing the primitive self , with being evil

the primative self , which we all have , must be controlled , to the good of the self

Tell that to the victims of the NAZI holocaust, maybe dear Hitler was just lacking love he was so very altruistic was he not? :perplexed:

That of course is one of the traditional defenses of evil:
Gods ways are not mans ways (Book of Job)
and evil is necessary for the greater good (Leibnitz)

For some it will suffice. For many, however, confronted with the tortured child, the ovens at Auswitch, the plagues, and the examples of "evil" on a large scale it does not suffice. It they can retain their faith in a loving god using your suggestion fine. For many however it will result in a loss of faith, for them I suggest viewing god as the source of love and the good and attributing evil to some other cause.

For me to think of God as all powerful is to attribute to god the characteristics of a ceasar, ruler, a tyrant. The long course of cosmology and of evolutionary biology, and the mass extinctions which have occured on the planet speak to a divine action in the world which is not all powerful and which does not act through miraculous or supernatural means. God is patient, god is persuasive not coercive, and god acts through providing possiblities for creative advance which free actualities then can accept or reject. There is real freedom and real risk in the world, for man and for god. God is very powerful but not all powerful for ultimate value is freedom and creativity IMHO.

The important concept here is the spiritual reality of what humans are. This time on earth is fleeting. We come here from the realm of pure spirit. Here, in this world of illusion, we are meant to grow and develop. Experiences of pleasure and of pain, the development of virtues, the focus of awareness and intention: all of these are part of our development. The concepts and the parameters for what is good and what is evil are given to us by God, who, though omnipotent, is not coercive nor interfering. Our having free will is part of the illusion of time and space: we must choose NOW what sort of person to be, and thus how to act. Our observations and responses to the suffering of others is for our education, as a means of prompting us towards manifesting good attributes: virtues.

I suggest that you reconsider your response to the suffering of others. Your response has been to say that God could not be both loving and all powerful and still allow such things, therefore God "is not all powerful and which does not act through miraculous or supernatural means." I suggest that this response is a conceptual cop-out: what is demanded of us by the suffering of others is action! Action to become better people; action to reform society through service and example; action to educate all of mankind to recognize our unity and oneness; action to build the Kingdom of God on Earth. For some people, events that many would call "miracles" are not uncommon, but not much spoken of. God has given us power over the things of the earth - of this physical realm. What He asks of us is that we give our hearts to Him - that we love Him and follow His guidance.

His Holiness, Baha'u'llah, came to unite all of mankind and to bring about a complete transformation of human society. The highest degrees of freedom and creativity for each of us can be attained when we are living in peace and harmony with one another.

"Man is the supreme Talisman. Lack of a proper education hath, however, deprived him of that which he doth inherently possess. Through a word proceeding out of the mouth of God he was called into being; by one word more he was guided to recognize the Source of his education; by yet another word his station and destiny were safeguarded. The Great Being saith: Regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value. Education can, alone, cause it to reveal its treasures, and enable mankind to benefit therefrom. If any man were to meditate on that which the Scriptures, sent down from the heaven of God's holy Will, have revealed, he would readily recognize that their purpose is that all men shall be regarded as one soul, so that the seal bearing the words "The Kingdom shall be God's" may be stamped on every heart, and the light of Divine bounty, of grace, and mercy may envelop all mankind. The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him."

It makes you feel better to think that some "evil" entity is out there causing pain and suffering. Thats childish ignorance. There are only men who choose right action and men who choose wrong action. Evil is a fairy tale.

How can you say that "right" and "wrong" DO exist, when you also say that evil does not? Exactly what distinction are you making between "wrong" and "evil"?

The problem with evil it destroys the notion of a benevolent or even points to an insufficient god.

The fact that we conceive of ourselves spiritually says nothing about our reality... We conceive of all existence and all matter spiritually... We do not carry things around in our heads, but rather their concepts, which are their essence, theri spiritual being...That says nothing of their being, but of our understanding, and when we turn that sort of consciousness upon ourselves, see ourselves in the same light, as anamis, as soul when what we really are is matter, living on matter, and while I know this does not explain life it does not do the really heavy lifting of proving a creator of life...

God has no hands but your hands.
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It makes you feel better to think that some "evil" entity is out there causing pain and suffering. Thats childish ignorance. There are only men who choose right action and men who choose wrong action. Evil is a fairy tale.

How can you say that "right" and "wrong" DO exist, when you also say that evil does not? Exactly what distinction are you making between "wrong" and "evil"?

Although there is much here I would empathize or even agree with
- God as persuasive not coercive
- The realm of sense experience as a form of "illusion" or lower level of reality
- Our responsibility to recognize and promote the "good"
I do not agree that our world is some sort of school for the education of the soul and that god as powerful loving parent (assuming his nature was all powerful) would allow us to slaughter each other to the tune of several millions at a time. Parents may allow their children to receive minor injury in the quest for teaching experience but any parent with the power will prevent serious injury.
Anyway in keeping with Freud "the world is not a nursery and god is not your parent".

Look I am not suggesting my view is right and your view is wrong. I am suggesting that for those who have suffered terrible tragedy or evil in the world and who are losing their faith in god because of it, letting go of the notion of god as all powerful and retaining the notion of god as loving and good might be valuable. It the case of Judaism, large segments of the religion have done precisely that.

I agree that evil and suffering are a call to action. God has no hands but your hands. The Kingdom is spread out before you but you do not see. I do not think however that the traditional notion of an all powerful deity who can act through miracles and supernatural means is compatible with the history of the universe, the history of the earth (evolution and mass extinctions) or the history of the human race (genocide, mass slaughters and horrendous epidemics). You are certainly entitled to believe in and promote your vision of the divine but for many that vision is not coherent or rationally accessible and so process theology and panentheism offer an alternative view of the divine which makes a vision of god accessible to those who can not reconcile the god of power with the god of good.
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