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The problem of evil

 
 
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 05:34 am
Origin of Evil.



Here are my conclusions on the origin of Evil.

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving god of pure light could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God.


God is perfect and would, therefore, does not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his presence of pure light.

How then could god create a being with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car. A perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except under one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil. Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to god?

God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" god is "light" and in him is no darkness whatsoever! , Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.


I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from god in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the '('VOID') is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil. This monster is the complete opposite to god and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from god. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void (HELL).

I was told that it is God's eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing is almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If we do not accept my explanation, then one must go to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things. This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from god himself and god having two natures.



On what basis do I justify my previous statements? They are justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void" or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes).

This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil. Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is god's eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to judge Evil (darkness) and remove it forever from his being. I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void.


I was shown that totally depraved dark evil beings , would have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from god's love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!). Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally

Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void" A terrible thought".

When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.

There is Good and Evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses


But do not despair if you are reading this short essay of mine, you are safe because God is within you and you have a spark of eternal life energy that can never be extinguished. This light will one day become a blazing furnace of love.


God does not have two natures!
God is love!


GOD IS GOOD
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1CellOfMany
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 07:24 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan,
It is interesting how close your thoughts come to the teachings of Zoroaster (AKA Zarathustra). While much of the scriptures of His religion have been lost to us, we do know that the struggle between Good and Evil is an essential part of what He taught. I see this concept, the struggle between these separate entities, as a metaphor for our internal struggle.

We have impulses toward acting in ways that would satisfy purely biological pleasures (i.e. increasing the presence of certain neurotransmitters in our brains). All other life-forms on Earth presumably have similar impulses. In other earthly life-forms, these impulses are balanced out by similar forces acting in other competing and supporting organisms. In humans, our god-like (and God given) creative and intellectual capacity allows us to break the natural balance. Thus, our capacity for evil. This same human spirit, characterized by the relatively powerful human mind, puts us in the position of needing, for our own long-term benefit and survival (among other reasons) to learn to distinguish between good and evil actions. Until we learn to make such distinctions - and to act on them and to help others to be positively motivated to make and act on them - mankind, and the rest of this living Earth, is in a condition of life-threatening disease.

It is through the ministry of the Divine Physician, and the teaching of the Divine Educator that we may overcome this disease and learn how to progress from disease to vibrant health.

"Beseech ye the one true God to grant that ye may taste the savor of such deeds as are performed in His path, and partake of the sweetness of such humility and submissiveness as are shown for His sake. Forget your own selves, and turn your eyes towards your neighbor.
Bend your energies to whatever may foster the education of men. Nothing is, or can ever be, hidden from God. If ye follow in His way, His incalculable and imperishable blessings will be showered upon you. This is the luminous Tablet, whose verses have streamed from the moving Pen of Him Who is the Lord of all worlds. Ponder it in your hearts, and be ye of them that observe its precepts."
- Baha'u'llah
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:07 am
@Alan McDougall,
First prove evil; and then show its origin... It is all a moral form, no substance to it but our own, having only the meaning we give to it, infinite and impossible to define...
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 01:58 pm
@Alan McDougall,
The phoenix rises from the ashes.
Life is perpetual perishing and rebirth.
Out of death and destruction comes life and renewal.
Out of chaos and the formless void god creates and creation is good.
God is not all powerful, for god is in loving relationship to the world and love is not about coercive power but about persuasion and example.
God is found in the tender elements of the world.
God patiently, persistently and lovingly brings forth new possiblities for creative advance and the formation of value which may be accepted or rejected by a world which has the power of self determination.
The ultimate value is creative avance and novelty, the ultimate method is process, the ultimate goal is the actualization of eternal objects and divine aims.
It is not possible to have a world which is meaningful and free in which "evil" does not exist.
To god we attribute that which is good, evil has other origins.
The example of Jesus is not one of power and coercion but one of persuasion and loving example. The nature of god is found in this example.
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:19 pm
@prothero,
evil is based on emotion

Lucifer was a rebel angel who loved god ,and was rejected by god , his reaction was bitterness , hate towards god

Lucifer was a immature angel
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:26 pm
@north,
The problem with evil it destroys the notion of a benevolent or even points to an insufficient god.
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:31 pm
@xris,
xris;164335 wrote:
The problem with evil it destroys the notion of a benevolent or even points to an insufficient god.


of course

both god and evil are fighting amoungst themselves and we are caught in the middle
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:45 pm
@north,
north;164340 wrote:
of course

both god and evil are fighting amoungst themselves and we are caught in the middle
Or maybe they only exist in the minds of men..
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 02:54 pm
@north,
north;164332 wrote:
evil is based on emotion

Lucifer was a rebel angel who loved god ,and was rejected by god , his reaction was bitterness , hate towards god

Lucifer was a immature angel


Ya... He had issues and was acting out... Come onnnnn... Try to be a little bit serious...You are anthropomorhizing or how ever you spell it, but you are doing it...First produce the angel, and then dress him up like a human and give us all a look... We can decide for ourselves..People do the same with God without even having a God in tow... They paint him up with all sorts of human motivations and limitations and say: see how real is God... That crap does not make God real, but it does make the painter seem unreal...
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 03:42 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall
..why did your idol make The Flood ..then regretted it later? ..even promised never to do it again.!
north
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 04:09 pm
@Fido,
Fido;164351 wrote:
Ya... He had issues and was acting out... Come onnnnn... Try to be a little bit serious...You are anthropomorhizing or how ever you spell it, but you are doing it...First produce the angel, and then dress him up like a human and give us all a look... We can decide for ourselves..People do the same with God without even having a God in tow... They paint him up with all sorts of human motivations and limitations and say: see how real is God... That crap does not make God real, but it does make the painter seem unreal...


the angel was Lucifer

the rebel angel , like it or not

and god was no better , when EVE bit the apple of knowledge

god and his rebel , lucifer , are the essence of the problem of evil
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 05:04 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;164377 wrote:
Alan McDougall
..why did your idol make The Flood ..then regretted it later? ..even promised never to do it again.!

He did not promise: Like the man who made him; He cut a deal...

---------- Post added 05-14-2010 at 07:04 PM ----------

north;164395 wrote:
the angel was Lucifer

the rebel angel , like it or not

and god was no better , when EVE bit the apple of knowledge

god and his rebel , lucifer , are the essence of the problem of evil

Ya ya....Ya ya ya
0 Replies
 
trismegisto
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 05:44 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;164191 wrote:
Origin of Evil.



Here are my conclusions on the origin of Evil.

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving god of pure light could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God.


God is perfect and would, therefore, does not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his presence of pure light.

How then could god create a being with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car. A perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except under one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil. Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to god?

God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" god is "light" and in him is no darkness whatsoever! , Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.


I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from god in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the '('VOID') is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil. This monster is the complete opposite to god and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from god. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void (HELL).

I was told that it is God's eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing is almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If we do not accept my explanation, then one must go to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the lord do all these things. This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from god himself and god having two natures.



On what basis do I justify my previous statements? They are justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void" or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes).

This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil. Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is god's eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to judge Evil (darkness) and remove it forever from his being. I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void.


I was shown that totally depraved dark evil beings , would have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from god's love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!). Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally

Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void" A terrible thought".

When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.

There is Good and Evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses


But do not despair if you are reading this short essay of mine, you are safe because God is within you and you have a spark of eternal life energy that can never be extinguished. This light will one day become a blazing furnace of love.


God does not have two natures!
God is love!


GOD IS GOOD


The 'monster' you saw in the void was your Self. If you choose love of Self over Love of All, then you will surely increase the chaos in the universe. We are all evil by necessity of existence.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 09:04 pm
@HexHammer,
Can the problem of evil be solved without giving up any of the divine attributes?

Evil, a God which is omnipotent and a God which is morally perfect; the problem of evil is the problem that revolves around the co-existence of the above. Arguably, when any two of these exist, it would be impossible for the third to co-exist. For if God is morally perfect, he would have created a world without evil. Yet evil exists, thus we are forced to conclude that either God is not morally perfect, or that he does not have the omnipotence to create a morally perfect world.

The credibility of some of the various defenses against this problem of evil will be examined in the following paragraphs. But first, what is evil? The commonly adopted definition of evil consists of two sub-classes, physical evil and moral evil. Physical evils consist of diseases, pain, and natural disasters such as earthquakes, famine et cetera. The problem of evil here is quite straight forward, why would a morally perfect God inflict such suffering on human kind if he had the power to prevent it. Moral evil, on the other hand, is the human capacity to perform evil actions. The question here is why an omnipotent God would allow humans to be capable of such deeds.

One of the theists' replies to the problem is the means-ends defense which claims that evil is required as a means to good. This defense is mainly used to explain the physical component of the problem of evil. The theists argue those evil (suffering) serves as a warning, a punishment and as a test. Suffering exists to warn us of the consequences of morally evil actions. Punishment acts as an operant conditioner to discourage us from such evil actions.

Physical evil also trebles as a test. These three functions combined, serves to increase the amount of good in the world; and given that a morally perfect God would want to maximize the amount of good in the world, evil was required to exist as a means to greater good.

The problems with this defense range from the non-selective nature of some forms of punishment (earthquakes), to the question of whether the means (of justified ends) themselves require justification. But here, I shall touch on another problem: the speciesistic nature of the argument.

The world, which God created, does not consist of the human kind alone. There are innumerable alternate forms of life in the world. Most of these animals do not have the ability to understand or to heed warnings. Less-complex life forms do not even have the capacity to learn from punishment.

Yet all life can and will experience death. Animals (and some plants) have sensory systems that are capable of experiencing pain. Mammals and other higher-order animals have limbic systems with which to feel emotions such as stress and fear. Quite clearly all life forms are subjected to some sort of physical evil. The question is why? Why should these living things be cursed with the damnation of suffering when they are not even capable of making moral judgments?

Were these billions and trillions of other forms of life simply denied the goodness and benevolence of the morally perfect being? The point here is that since all life forms experiences suffering, the justification of evil must remain logically applicable to all sentience beings. The means-ends explanation fails thoroughly in this aspect.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 12:00 am
@Alan McDougall,
You really only have two choices here:
One is to live with the inherent contradiction of the traditional notion of an all powerful and all good god who permits or plans evil in his creation
or
Two is to question the traditional notion of gods attributes and action in the world. As you know I suggest number two is the route to go.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 05:28 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;164457 wrote:
Can the problem of evil be solved without giving up any of the divine attributes?

Evil, a God which is omnipotent and a God which is morally perfect; the problem of evil is the problem that revolves around the co-existence of the above. Arguably, when any two of these exist, it would be impossible for the third to co-exist. For if God is morally perfect, he would have created a world without evil. Yet evil exists, thus we are forced to conclude that either God is not morally perfect, or that he does not have the omnipotence to create a morally perfect world.

The credibility of some of the various defenses against this problem of evil will be examined in the following paragraphs. But first, what is evil? The commonly adopted definition of evil consists of two sub-classes, physical evil and moral evil. Physical evils consist of diseases, pain, and natural disasters such as earthquakes, famine et cetera. The problem of evil here is quite straight forward, why would a morally perfect God inflict such suffering on human kind if he had the power to prevent it. Moral evil, on the other hand, is the human capacity to perform evil actions. The question here is why an omnipotent God would allow humans to be capable of such deeds.

One of the theists' replies to the problem is the means-ends defense which claims that evil is required as a means to good. This defense is mainly used to explain the physical component of the problem of evil. The theists argue those evil (suffering) serves as a warning, a punishment and as a test. Suffering exists to warn us of the consequences of morally evil actions. Punishment acts as an operant conditioner to discourage us from such evil actions.

Physical evil also trebles as a test. These three functions combined, serves to increase the amount of good in the world; and given that a morally perfect God would want to maximize the amount of good in the world, evil was required to exist as a means to greater good.

The problems with this defense range from the non-selective nature of some forms of punishment (earthquakes), to the question of whether the means (of justified ends) themselves require justification. But here, I shall touch on another problem: the speciesistic nature of the argument.

The world, which God created, does not consist of the human kind alone. There are innumerable alternate forms of life in the world. Most of these animals do not have the ability to understand or to heed warnings. Less-complex life forms do not even have the capacity to learn from punishment.

Yet all life can and will experience death. Animals (and some plants) have sensory systems that are capable of experiencing pain. Mammals and other higher-order animals have limbic systems with which to feel emotions such as stress and fear. Quite clearly all life forms are subjected to some sort of physical evil. The question is why? Why should these living things be cursed with the damnation of suffering when they are not even capable of making moral judgments?

Were these billions and trillions of other forms of life simply denied the goodness and benevolence of the morally perfect being? The point here is that since all life forms experiences suffering, the justification of evil must remain logically applicable to all sentience beings. The means-ends explanation fails thoroughly in this aspect.

It seems strange that so many Christians do not accept evolution when their own God has evolved from a very basic and earthly being to one at once removed from the earth and more humane...Look at Abraham bargaining with God for the lives in Sodom, and Gamorrah...Look at Jacob reaching heaven with a ladder... Look at God killing all those first born children, and justifying genocide in the land of milk and honey... Could we do worse as an example of evil than our own God??? Yet, are not all primitive Gods just so, undifferentiated power that we can bribe, and plead with, and paliate??? It is our own morality reflected in the face of God that makes God Good in heaven, and sends lucifer to hell...

The sight of you applying physical logic to a moral infinite is like watching a fat drunk slide out of his wheel chair... Pathos may be in order but abuse is demanded...
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 09:59 am
@Fido,
Fido;164545 wrote:
It seems strange that so many Christians do not accept evolution when their own God has evolved from a very basic and earthly being to one at once removed from the earth and more humane...Look at Abraham bargaining with God for the lives in Sodom, and Gamorrah...Look at Jacob reaching heaven with a ladder... Look at God killing all those first born children, and justifying genocide in the land of milk and honey... Could we do worse as an example of evil than our own God??? Yet, are not all primitive Gods just so, undifferentiated power that we can bribe, and plead with, and paliate??? It is our own morality reflected in the face of God that makes God Good in heaven, and sends lucifer to hell...

The sight of you applying physical logic to a moral infinite is like watching a fat drunk slide out of his wheel chair... Pathos may be in order but abuse is demanded...
The problem is the conflict between god as power and god as love. Certainly the image of God in the old testament is a god of power and in the new testament a god of love.

It should be easy for Christians but they fail to make the transition.
The example of Jesus was not a divine being who used power like a Ceasar or a tyrant but of a divine being who used example and loving persuasion.
God as father loving tender care not God as Ceasar ruler, tyrant, judge.

The Church however failed to make the transition or draw the proper conclusion and reverted to an image of God as power and thus encouraged the use of power in enforcing their doctrine and dogma.

If one sustitutes the Christ image of love, care and persuasive example for the relationship of God to the entire world. The result would be much improved.
The New testament (minus revelations) is a new understanding of the nature of god and his relationship to the world.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 10:15 am
@prothero,
prothero;164601 wrote:
The problem is the conflict between god as power and god as love. Certainly the image of God in the old testament is a god of power and in the new testament a god of love.

It should be easy for Christians but they fail to make the transition.
The example of Jesus was not a divine being who used power like a Ceasar or a tyrant but of a divine being who used example and loving persuasion.
God as father loving tender care not God as Ceasar ruler, tyrant, judge.

The Church however failed to make the transition or draw the proper conclusion and reverted to an image of God as power and thus encouraged the use of power in enforcing their doctrine and dogma.

If one sustitutes the Christ image of love, care and persuasive example for the relationship of God to the entire world. The result would be much improved.
The New testament (minus revelations) is a new understanding of the nature of god and his relationship to the world.

I would not say completely new... Some of the prophets suggest a new and improved relationship with God, and that may be why they were punished... I do agree with you about revalations...What a bunch of madhouse drivel that is...
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 11:21 am
@Fido,
Fido;164608 wrote:
I would not say completely new... Some of the prophets suggest a new and improved relationship with God, and that may be why they were punished... I do agree with you about revalations...What a bunch of madhouse drivel that is...
One interpretation of revelations would be a wish for a return of the god of power versus the god of love.
Probably because Roman power was kicking the fanny of the Christians of love at that time. Enough of this, time for god to come and set things right.
The best interpretation of Revelations would be it represents the hope of the final triumph of good over evil, but the method would be that of war, destruction, death and so it IMHO is discordant with the entire message of the new testament of god as father and as love.

God as gentle persuasive loving parent not God as ruler, tyrant, judge and power. The tension between these two images of the divine remains. It should be noted that believers tend to imitate one image or the other, so I support the loving parent image, it is less dangerous.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 May, 2010 01:58 pm
@prothero,
prothero;164635 wrote:
One interpretation of revelations would be a wish for a return of the god of power versus the god of love.
Probably because Roman power was kicking the fanny of the Christians of love at that time. Enough of this, time for god to come and set things right.
The best interpretation of Revelations would be it represents the hope of the final triumph of good over evil, but the method would be that of war, destruction, death and so it IMHO is discordant with the entire message of the new testament of god as father and as love.

God as gentle persuasive loving parent not God as ruler, tyrant, judge and power. The tension between these two images of the divine remains. It should be noted that believers tend to imitate one image or the other, so I support the loving parent image, it is less dangerous.


If you look at the great numbers of destroyed works of sculpter, literally defaced by Christians anxious to prove the god or emperor had no power, and the fact that they would make no common sacrifice to the genius of the emperor, you can see how much of their suffering they brought on themselves... Sure, they wanted retribution; and they got it, but it is also a fact that they were considered godless because their god had no physical representation...They were novel, and should not have expected better...
 

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