Do you think the universe is infinite and eternal?

We have been here often Alan, what can i bring thats new? I will restate my views. The universe by evidence came from nought but as nought is inconceivable, then what do we say even though it appears to have a defined begining...... We have no notion of previous times so when we say it started, can we make that statement, when nothing is not feasible? Its a trap of logic that has us in a spin.

This is what the BB theory has, it has limits in understanding, by logic we could assume there is more or it might just be created. By our view of this universe we may be confused about its movement, we may just be placed in a Taurus universe that is eternal but finite.

xris;116848]Alan we must assume by the evidence that we have been given that nothing preceded the universe. If that evidence is valid then what is wrong with saying everything began at a certain point. I tried explaining before, if you have a mass so incredible dense, held all the universe in a singularity, then by the given laws of nature, science, it would not be visible, in fact it would not exist. Nothing and everything can exist in harmony, both are equally valid. We must then ask what caused it to appear and that balance be broken? This is the question
Xris I am taking note of what you say both in this thread and others similar ones around this topic on the forum!

Xris a primordial nothing, the absolute absence of everything could not have happened together like you stated, in my opinion


One can now think of the universe as a tiny (or huge as you like, there is nothing to compare it with) 'bubble' existing in an infinite nothing and expanding into it. This model rather conveniently does away with the need to have a moment of creation for the universe because within nothing time does not exist. Without time it would be meaningless to ask when the universe was created, "it was simply there all the time", existed in the same way as nothing, as it always has. Within the universe of course time does exist, as does everything else. With this description of nothing its existence, and that of the universe, is now possible. Or is it? :perplexed:

What does it mean to say the universe was always there? Some believe it started with the Big Bang, but can One say the Big Bang was always there? This doesn't seem logical to me, it needed to have actually come into existence at some point, even the very term 'big bang', suggests a beginning.

Let's step back a little and look at the creation of the Big Bang from the viewpoint of a 'perfect observer' in nothing!

At the moment of creation what would a 'perfect observer' see? Nothing at all! The universe is self contained, nothing at all can escape from it into our nothing, and our observer would notice no change whatsoever! :perplexed: I know but let us preserver

It may help here to visualize the Big Bang as an infinitely small event in the unimaginable vastness of an infinite void. In other words, a singularity, as indeed it is believed to have been, therefore the definition of an unchanging timeless nothing is still valid


xris there are realities in the universe that make no sense and appear to defy all human logic.

While I do not think the universe is eternal and infinite, what we call existence is and must because existence is the contents of EVERYTHING

This question comes up frequently both in philosophical discussion and in the science of physics and cosmology.

As a amateur astronomer I have long mused around this question. Fred Hoyle would not accept a created universe because it clashed with his atheistic belief and brought all sorts of mystical and religious questions into the debate. It is he who mockingly made the now famous statement, "Oh! So you are telling me the whole thing started with a big bang"

The expansion of the universe was a problem for Fred , but he overcame that within the infinite universe there was nothing stopping it expanding within different colossal regions of the universe.

The big bang is the most widely accepted theory of how the universe came to be, but remember it is still a theory albeit with some very good circumstantial evidence that it might be true.

Religious people really like the big bang idea because it makes room for a divine creator

I am interested in the forum opinion as I have some ideas of my own that do not fit completely into any present accepted theory? If interest is shown in this thread I will discuss my take on the cause of the universe and more

Alan if you read my post you should be able to see similarities with what you have said. Its not your observations but your conclusions that I disagree with.

Hello Alan, xris, Fido

An observation,

if

"Badly put nothing never was and it is only a mathematical concept like the impossibility of infinity"

has truth, how can the question

"Do you think the universe is infinite and eternal?"

hold meaning? On analysis of the question how can a thing (the universe) be infinite or eternal when the concept of infinite and eternal are not things in themselves? Perhaps these certain types of concepts lose there meaning after materialisation. It is synonymous with asking the question "Is the number x infinite" or "Is x hours from now eternal"

This is not necessarily my opinion, but I thought this a good place to jump in

But Alan both are impossible.You are putting our logical feelings into an impossible scene. Eternity and infinity are no more relevant than nothing or a beginning. I said to you recently, the BB we may have had a balance of both, where neither had any relevance. If your in a cell and your world is those four walls does the outside world go on for ever or is it not there ?

I think the best THEORY we have is the "big bang" but I also believe there was something before the big bang, maybe a multy universe or mother universe. A black hole might be the seed of a new universe starting a new realm maybe even with-different fundamental constants. Our logic can deal with those kinds of possibility but not with concepts such as nothingness or infinity or eternity

As far as the Big Bang theory is concerned "is it meaningless" to look back before the Big Bang, nothing existed. Perhaps so, but it's very unsatisfactory to have a theory of the creation and evolution of the universe that does not explain where the universe, the Big Bang, actually came from, it must have come from something. Or must it?

But Alan both are impossible.You are putting our logical feelings into an impossible scene. Eternity and infinity are no more relevant than nothing or a beginning. I said to you recently, the BB we may have had a balance of both, where neither had any relevance. If your in a cell and your world is those four walls does the outside world go on for ever or is it not there ?

We are now left with just these two possible solutions, either God created the universe and He always existed, or the universe/universes/something has always existed. The solution requires "that something has always existed in order to avoid the problem of creating "something out of nothing".

The choice of introducing God is purely a matter of faith, for if we accept that God could have always existed then why not the universe? From a logical point of view within this model we do not need the existence of God; God is just a further complication that in turn would require to be created. If we ruthlessly apply Ockham's razor to the idea of introducing God into the model we are left with the universe always existing. . I am suggesting that the idea of introducing God into the equation is not necessary in order to make it work.

With or without God in the equation with are left with the idea of infinite regression?????

In my opinion the universe is not infinite or eternal, it had a beginning and it will end, what I do believe there was never the "" (nothingness) that there has "always been something that is everlasting lets call it existence

We have very little to make a conclusion but that should not stop us from speculating and then for others to pick through our musing. It is the real purpose of this mystery, it holds all the possibilities that our mind can conceive of. It is the best detective story we could invent and every one has a valued view. It gives a glimmer of light on a creator, if you wish it to and it can also destroy your view of all known science. Its the great melting point, the most intriguing mystery we can ever encounter and it warrants our most fervent philosophical interest.

You are not advocation for philosophy, but for BS... Fantasy is not philosophy...Everywhere you look there are fruitful subjects for inquiry... What do you want to know, that you can know, the knowledge of which will aid humankind???There is something to know where ever one looks, and everyone looks where they can never know... Tell me, who was that philosopher in Greece, who was star gazing, and fell into a cistern...Even his servant girl could see the folly...First take care of all that is unsecured in your life, and then you can star gaze with as little profit as you desire...