Is there a crime that would make the death penalty justifiable?

@north,

I do often wish that I could be for the death penalty, but here in the States it just has such a legacy of misuse. From what I've discerned, however, there seems to be no benefit of deterrence and the cost (at least here in the States) seems to be about the same to try and execute a prisoner vs. holding them for life in a cell. State sanctioned murder just can't be acceptable, especially if you hold that life is an inalienable right. The term inalienable doesn't imply that the right can be taken away if you take the right away from someone else.

2 Replies

@Rwa001,

Rwa001;139813 wrote:

I do often wish that I could be for the death penalty, but here in the States it just has such a legacy of misuse. From what I've discerned, however, there seems to be no benefit of deterrence and the cost (at least here in the States) seems to be about the same to try and execute a prisoner vs. holding them for life in a cell. State sanctioned murder just can't be acceptable, especially if you hold that life is an inalienable right. The term inalienable doesn't imply that the right can be taken away if you take the right away from someone else.

After the death penalty was abolished crime for murder and rape in South Africa , had has increased almost exponentially.

The death penalty is most decidedly the ultimate deterrent

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

I hate to call foul, but could you support that with any statistics? In my rudimentary research I found that the homicide rate has dropped a fair bit in South Africa since the abolishment of the death penalty DEATH PENALTY: Calls for the Return of Capital Punishment in South Africa - IPS ipsnews.net

The raise in the rate could also be due to several other factors such as the increased frequency of AIDS and the promulgation of the idea that raping babies cures it.

It's worth noting that all of these crimes escalated alarming at the beginning of democracy in South Africa. In keeping with your own argument, it would make sense to get rid of democracy, too.

I feel for the plight of your country, I really do, but it seems like there's a lot of other issues at hand here besides simple deterrence. And for a developing nation, the death penalty isn't going to be the crutch that solves your problems.

1 Reply

@Rwa001,

Rwa001;139826 wrote:

I hate to call foul, but could you support that with any statistics? In my rudimentary research I found that the homicide rate has dropped a fair bit in South Africa since the abolishment of the death penalty DEATH PENALTY: Calls for the Return of Capital Punishment in South Africa - IPS ipsnews.net

The raise in the rate could also be due to several other factors such as the increased frequency of AIDS and the promulgation of the idea that raping babies cures it.

It's worth noting that all of these crimes escalated alarming at the beginning of democracy in South Africa. In keeping with your own argument, it would make sense to get rid of democracy, too.

I feel for the plight of your country, I really do, but it seems like there's a lot of other issues at hand here besides simple deterrence. And for a developing nation, the death penalty isn't going to be the crutch that solves your problems.

Unlike you I live in South Africa and know the police statistics are just a lot of lying propaganda
I wrote this small essay for people who have a real interest in what is really going on in South Africa

!

The walled-in fortified nation.

Visitors to the beautiful land of South Africa are amazed that as they get off the plane and travel through cities of South Africa that they are amazed and confused with the maze of walled off houses, confined by high walls fortified by electric razor wire. The large beautiful houses in urban South Africa are thus impossible to see from the street. It appears to them that the inmates or criminals are on the outside on the loose walking and prowling the streets just waiting to pounce on innocent victims, while normal law abiding citizens are barricaded, confined, barred in and imprisoned in their own homes out of fear from these mobsters and evil monsters. This situation is bizarre and is not found in any other country.

The single most terrible problem S.A. is the horrible crime wave that continues to climb unabated and out of control and I do not think there is one family that has been unaffected by this evil, certainly not mine. Precious human life has become very cheap in South Africa and the annual death rate by crime nearly equals that of the Iraq war. It is realistically estimated (not the ridiculous low official statistic) that at least a hundred people are murdered each day in S.A. and by extrapolation a 100 times 365 equaling a horrifying realty of 36 400 per year and over the six year person of the Iraq war 6 times 36 400 = 218 400.

Of course the murders have being going on much longer than the Iraq war and if we go back 14 years we have the unbelievable statistic of 509 600 murders, is this not then a war situation? Have this many civilians died in Iraq over the past six years in Iraq? Maybe less than our statistic for murders in S.A. I believe. Why is this plague increasing, WHAT IS SUSTAINING THIS HORROR?? I believe it is because of a number of reasons.

The prime reason is the government's continual refusal to acknowledge that the crime wave in South Africa. is a national disaster needing emergency methods to deal with it now not in the future. Soft interpretation of our liberal constitution, results in the perpetrator getting off light sentences for horrendous depraved monstrous crimes that seem to be unique to S.A,. The rape of babies is something unique to South Africa with very young children, innocent woman, men of all ages and even the very elderly suffering the same fate in this epidemic of horror.

Murder is rampant throughout S.A and the killings are too often for the most ridiculously small rewards, such as a cell phone or 10 rand etc, etc. Unemployment and resulting poverty crime and grime are also major problems. Education must become a national priority. Overcrowding Of prisons are turning petty criminals into evil monsters. The easy availability and access to cheap street drugs and the easy access of unlawful guns to criminals and abnormal love of money, by them gives them power they should not have.

It is now almost impossible for a decent law obeying citizens to get a gun to protect himself and his family from these depraved monsters, while criminals can get their hands on guns for as little as a $.1. The AK 47 machine gun is used against woman and children going about their shopping

The Government involves itself in setting out petty ridiculous laws such as the ban on public smoking or forbidding teenagers to kiss or cuddle and these nonsensical laws are given more focus and comment by the government than our horrendous crime rate and appalling poverty experienced in our beautiful land.

Then there is the unimaginable ignorance around the AIDS pandemic. By the government refusing to address this problems even sprouting nonsense like HIV never progresses to full blown AIDS. Sort of HIV is on Venus and AIDS is only found on Mars .This appalling lack of foresight and insight by the South African government is estimated to have resulted in the untimely death of about 400 000 people.

These are the people who would still be living if they had been given the government with held antiviral medication in time. The desperate dying people were told by the idiot minister of health to each the African potato herb, mixed into a concoction of garlic and cabbage etc and other useless "STUFF"

In addition, money must be urgently allocated where it is most needed, not to sports stadiums; Gau- trains huge unnecessary arms deals etc, as examples. I feel that given the national disaster crime has become, it is also a national shame and a crime by us and the government to continue paying the ridiculously low salaries to the police officers and police woman that offer up their lives for us, for this puny reward.

We must, give our police a living salary now, sooner than later" when it might indeed be too late for us all. In this beautiful country. The hand of a gun and the loss of moral absolutes that comes with no longer believing in a righteous God and eternal consequence for active evil. (Eternal punishment) is a so very sad to me. It is eat drink for tomorrow we die There is a belief now, with a loss of religious conviction and belief in God by the youth, that there is no eternal consequences for evil acts. Believe me God is just, righteous holy and all will face God in that final day of judgments and answer for every act, both good and evil that they committed in this school we call life.

"IN GOD WE MUST TRUST"

BY ALAN. MCDOUGALL 5/10/2007

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan.

WOW, reading your essay really brought the plight of S.A. home for me.
For some time I have been trying to get some picture of what goes on in S.A. and Africa in general . Kansas being so far removed makes it difficult to really get any true perspective.
I think you have widened my peephole

1 Reply

@wayne,

Quote:

Unlike you I live in South Africa and know the police statistics are just a lot of lying propaganda

The statistic in that article claims there were about 50 murders a day in 2007. If that's propaganda, then it's the worst damn propaganda I've ever read.

You say a lot of things I agree with in your essay, specifically how important education is. South Africa has an incredibly troubled past, and is in dire need of a cultural shift AWAY from violence. But that can't be facilitated by sanctioning state executions. In your essay you cite the miserable state of your police force. That and education should be the main focuses of your government's actions.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

As strange as it might sound Alan. Placing any sort of punishment onto this crime will ultimately make trafficking of babies more profitable. Why? Because the desire for them will not go away no matter if you put a death penalty on it. It will only make the traffickers more money because the risk for getting caught would be higher.

It is no different than the illegal drug market. Drugs are illegal and that causes their price to go up, yet the desire for them is still there regardless of the punishment for selling or using them. The harsher the punishment the more profitable it is.

The only way to solve this problem is by educating the people. The problem is, the government doesn't want to educate the people. Educated people make better political choices and they don't want the people making better political choices. So they don't really care about this problem so it will never get solved. They might slap a huge punishment on it but like I said, the problem won't go away because there is a punishment for it.

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@Rwa001,

Rwa001;139813 wrote:

I do often wish that I could be for the death penalty, but here in the States it just has such a legacy of misuse. From what I've discerned, however, there seems to be no benefit of deterrence and the cost (at least here in the States) seems to be about the same to try and execute a prisoner vs. holding them for life in a cell. State sanctioned murder just can't be acceptable, especially if you hold that life is an inalienable right. The term inalienable doesn't imply that the right can be taken away if you take the right away from someone else.

Why should imposition of the death penalty be considered state sanctioned murder?

1 Reply

@Insty,

You're right, state sanctioned killing is more accurate. I stand corrected.

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@Rwa001,

Rwa001;139857 wrote:

The statistic in that article claims there were about 50 murders a day in 2007. If that's propaganda, then it's the worst damn propaganda I've ever read.

You say a lot of things I agree with in your essay, specifically how important education is. South Africa has an incredibly troubled past, and is in dire need of a cultural shift AWAY from violence. But that can't be facilitated by sanctioning state executions. In your essay you cite the miserable state of your police force. That and education should be the main focuses of your government's actions.

The informed media put the murder rate in SA at about a hundred a day far above the police estimate of 50 murder's

But it is rape of babies and little children a horror only seen in SA that makes my stomach churn with hate, I would eliminate these base beasts if i had the chance they dint deserve to live. Do a web search if you don't believe me, this is not an isolated case

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africa-shocked-as-six-charged-with-raping-baby-girl-616747.html

Johannes Stuurman
sponsored links:
)
Six men from an impoverished South African township will appear in court charged with raping a nine-month-old girl in a case that has shocked the violence-prone country. She was assaulted in a two-room brick house on Sultana Road - thus named because if you live in this Northern Cape settlement on the edge of the Kalahari desert, your fate is to work either at the dried-fruit factory or in a nearby vineyard.

Six men from an impoverished South African township will appear in court charged with raping a nine-month-old girl in a case that has shocked the violence-prone country. She was assaulted in a two-room brick house on Sultana Road - thus named because if you live in this Northern Cape settlement on the edge of the Kalahari desert, your fate is to work either at the dried-fruit factory or in a nearby vineyard.

The apartheid regime planned it that way, removing people three times in one generation and finally, in the 1970s, dumping them on this windswept scrubland for mixed-race people.

In those days, there were jobs. "Today, I would put the population at about 10,000 and unemployment at 60 per cent,'' said the Rev Johannes Stuurman, to whom the rape was reported because no one in Louisvaleweg trusts the police. "The community came to me because they felt I might be able to ensure that the police do their job.''

The police in nearby Upington are holding six mixed-race men, aged 24 to 66, whom they charged with rape on finding them in the Sultana Road house after the incident, said to have taken place on a Friday night when they were drunk.

Officers say only DNA tests will reveal whether Baby Tshepang, as she has been nicknamed, was raped by all, some or maybe just one of the men. In custody, the accused are blaming each other.

The baby is in hospital five hours' drive away, in Kimberley, where she is being given anti-retroviral drugs to try to reduce the chances of HIV infection, and has been operated on to repair her injuries.

South Africa is in shock, there is talk of castration and life sentences, and the media is publishing stories of similar incidents. In the 18 months after January 2000, almost 32,000 reports of sexual assault on children were made.

In the same week as Baby Tshepang's rape, a 17-year-old boy was arrested for the rape of a four-year-old; another teenager appeared in court in connection with the rape of a three-year-old; a four-year-old girl died after allegedly being raped by her father; and two men were arrested for allegedly raping their 14-month niece. It is understood that many girls are raped because ofa belief that sex with a virgin cures HIV infection; 20 per cent of all South Africans have the Aids virus.

The brutality of life in Louisvaleweg stares Mr Stuurman, aged 37, in the face. The United Congregational Church priest has lived here for four years and says he was not surprised by the baby's rape.

It was the grandmother - in common with other relatives, she cannot be named for legal reasons - who raised the alarm after finding the child, covered in blood, not wearing a nappy and crying uncontrollably on that Friday night. She ran down Sultana Road to a payphone, called an ambulance and sent a neighbour to alert Mr Stuurman, four blocks away.

Police say the baby's mother had left it "in the care of someone'' while she went to buy food. The carer, a woman married to one of the accused, says she was sleeping in the next room with her 10-month-old girl, and heard nothing.

Neighbours say the baby's mother, who is aged 16, spent the evening drinking at a local shebeen. The father, who is 21 and has a four-year-old boy by another woman, says he was in his own home.

The six men in custody - all but two of whom are unemployed - include the baby's grandfather but also, the police admit, other relatives.

Life here is bleak. You find 15 people living in these two-room houses; 11 people lived in the same house as the baby. The wine farms are retrenching their workforces and people with jobs are mostly employed only seasonally.

They are paid as little as 50 rands a week, plus alcohol. The "dop" system is used, so measures of alcohol are part of men's wages. That tends to mean domestic violence is part of people's lives.

"For some young men, rape is a badge that proves manhood. Poverty, of course, plays a role,'' says Mr Stuurman, who has started a library in his Emmanuel Church and allows pupils to use his house for their exam preparations.

Others say that sex for money or alcohol is so common as to seem the same as any commodity that can be bought or sold. Many first pregnancies occur at 13 or 14 and a majority of first sexual experiences are of rape.

Johan van Wyk, a jobless resident, said: "Often you just have to give a woman some alcohol and they will do anything. At least they [the rapists] could have taken a woman. Why a child? The baby was so young and could do nothing.''

0 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

I have not read all of the posts in this and other death penalty threads in this forum, but from what I have read, the arguments against the death penalty ultimately come down to practical concerns and issues (e.g., executing an innocent person, the expense involved in carrying out an execution, etc.). Are there any arguments against the death penalty in principle? That explain why it's wrong to take the life of a person who has killed another human being without any justification?

1 Reply

@Insty,

Quote:

I have not read all of the posts in this and other death penalty threads in this forum, but from what I have read, the arguments against the death penalty ultimately come down to practical concerns and issues (e.g., executing an innocent person, the expense involved in carrying out an execution, etc.). Are there any arguments against the death penalty in principle? That explain why it's wrong to take the life of a person who has killed another human being without any justification?

On principal most people tend to agree it's wrong to kill people. You might consider that an argument on principal against the death penalty. But even from Alan's article these people aren't raping or killing without any justification. They believe it's going to save their own lives. The logic behind this being a cure is absurd, but people actually believe it.

Of course I think their crimes are heinous. But when I step down from my comfortable high horse, where I have enjoyed a lifetime of liberty and comfort, and consider the desperate situation of your entire country, I become less certain that they're 'depraved beasts', and more certain that they're products of their environment who deserve rehabilitation and a chance at repenting. You have to change the culture through education. The death penalty isn't your answer; it wont stop your problem.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

The crime of raping little babies is the crime for which there is no forgiveness.These beast must be eliminated from the earth. Paedophiles never change and usually after their release from prison they go back to their unspeakably depravity

If some monster did that to your children would you forgive them? , never ever.

Even Jesus gave a stern waring about hurting his Little ones. He said "it would be better if they had never been born ", they will face the wrath of god even if the state lets them rejoin society

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@Alan McDougall,

They aren't pedophiles. Or at least, that doesn't seem to be the claim. The claim is that they think they're curing themselves of AIDS. I don't think that's just an excuse. It's widely known that some people in Africa actually think this practice can cure their AIDS.

"Even Jesus gave a stern waring about hurting his Little ones. He said "it would be better if they had never been born ", they will face the wrath of god even if the state lets them rejoin society"

Last time I checked, Jesus wasn't in the business of killing. Obviously you're heated about this issue and beyond the point where rational discussion is your interest.

1 Reply

@Rwa001,

Rwa001;140480 wrote:

They aren't pedophiles. Or at least, that doesn't seem to be the claim. The claim is that they think they're curing themselves of AIDS. I don't think that's just an excuse. It's widely known that some people in Africa actually think this practice can cure their AIDS.

"Even Jesus gave a stern waring about hurting his Little ones. He said "it would be better if they had never been born ", they will face the wrath of god even if the state lets them rejoin society"

Last time I checked, Jesus wasn't in the business of killing. Obviously you're heated about this issue and beyond the point where rational discussion is your interest.

You are very wrong about Jesus, read the Book of Revelations and you will read abut two thirds of mankind being killed by the forces of light that reported to whom? Jesus

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@Rwa001,

Rwa001;140469 wrote:

On principal most people tend to agree it's wrong to kill people. You might consider that an argument on principal against the death penalty.

I disagree. I think most people believe that it's perfectly permissible, and perhaps even morally obligatory, to kill people under certain circumstances (e.g., in the context of a just war, in self-defense). The question is whether punishing a person for committing a brutal crime falls into the same category as these other justifications. I still don't see why it doesn't.

[QUOTE=Rwa001;140469]
But even from Alan's article these people aren't raping or killing without any justification. They believe it's going to save their own lives. The logic behind this being a cure is absurd, but people actually believe it.

Of course I think their crimes are heinous. But when I step down from my comfortable high horse, where I have enjoyed a lifetime of liberty and comfort, and consider the desperate situation of your entire country, I become less certain that they're 'depraved beasts', and more certain that they're products of their environment who deserve rehabilitation and a chance at repenting. You have to change the culture through education. The death penalty isn't your answer; it wont stop your problem.
[/QUOTE]
For the record, I didn't have that article in mind in raising my question.

In any case, the death penalty needn't be viewed as an answer to a problem. It's simply a punishment that is demanded by certain particularly horrible actions.

1 Reply

@Insty,

Quote:

I disagree. I think most people believe that it's perfectly permissible, and perhaps even morally obligatory, to kill people under certain circumstances (e.g., in the context of a just war, in self-defense). The question is whether punishing a person for committing a brutal crime falls into the same category as these other justifications. I still don't see why it doesn't.

Morality is a fickle mistress. I think this would come down to what you consider justice. In our society we aim for rehabilitation (even if we do it poorly, and I'm talking about the U.S. here). In a system based on rehabilitation, the death penalty is still morally reprehensible.

2 Replies

@Rwa001,

Rwa001;141280 wrote:

Morality is a fickle mistress. I think this would come down to what you consider justice. In our society we aim for rehabilitation (even if we do it poorly, and I'm talking about the U.S. here). In a system based on rehabilitation, the death penalty is still morally reprehensible.

This appears to be a common misconception about the American criminal justice system: it's actually not based on rehabilitation, at least not exclusively. Rehabilitation is only one of the justifications for, or aims of, criminal punishment. The nation's courts and legislatures have made clear that incapacitation, deterrence, and retribution are also permissible justifications.

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@Rwa001,

Rwa001;141280 wrote:

Morality is a fickle mistress. I think this would come down to what you consider justice. In our society we aim for rehabilitation (even if we do it poorly, and I'm talking about the U.S. here). In a system based on rehabilitation, the death penalty is still morally reprehensible.

Especially the long wait is babaric. People start to believe any-thing from Is-lam to Wicca to christianity. All to get forgiveness, and a live after death. Sentences of 150 years are a shame / dis-honest since we do not have living Methusalems as far as I know. We (Dutch) also lock up people for live... What possible rehabilitation is there ?

PeSoHerm:whistling:

1 Reply

@Pepijn Sweep,

I lived through a time when the death penalty was used and I don't want us to go back there. Injustice has always been with us and I know three innocent people where executed in my life time. For that reason I can not ever condone its use, however much I would personally enjoy killing a child molester. Life in prison is possible more painful than execution but at least the innocent have more time to fight their case.

0 Replies

Is there a crime that would make the death penalty justifiable?

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