Do you think the world has become corrupt because we have rejected God?

@Alan McDougall,

I think the people of the world become corrupt the moment they let wealth stand for honor... Where money is dear, honor is cheap in the estimation of those who must live with poverty amid wealth; but when even the poor surrender honor for wealth, the society is done, dead, and waiting for the undertaker...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;116114 wrote:

I think the people of the world become corrupt the moment they let wealth stand for honor... Where money is dear, honor is cheap in the estimation of those who must live with poverty amid wealth; but when even the poor surrender honor for wealth, the society is done, dead, and waiting for the undertaker...

Was money the reason for the two appalling world wars of the twentieth century?

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Do you think the world of today is becoming increasingly corrupt due to humanity rejecting God and embracing atheism?

Can we not identify corruption within religious institutions and communities? If so, then how can we say that corruption has anything to do with belief or lack thereof?

---------- Post added 01-01-2010 at 05:53 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;116152 wrote:

Was money the reason for the two appalling world wars of the twentieth century?

It was a major causal factor, especially in WWII.

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;116152 wrote:

Was money the reason for the two appalling world wars of the twentieth century?

Wealth has been the cause of all violence...Engles was right to draw the existence of the state right back to chiefs going forth for goods and glories... Avarice, wanting what belongs to others has been the cause of all violence... Socieites could live in peace, and even grow together through marriage... The public peace upon which so many depended was always in danger of being broken by those who put their interests above common interests, which were alway in danger...

Look Al; there is no justice without honor, and without honor, which demands respect guarding each person's behavior all society has is law, threat of coersion...Our law, Western law puts peace before justice...If justice is denied, and people cannot change the form of their society that should give them justice, they seek what they need which justice would deliver in other lands across their border... Before law their was feuds, and after law there has been war...Unquestionably law has led to larger societies, but greater wars killing vast numbers... Can we say, judging from the evidence that law has improved our condition only because it has expanded our possibilites???

If you look at every little fetish good Christians put between their God and themselves, all the shiney, newer, faster, more powerful, and more deadly; each is also more expensive... It would help if we had a God we could believe in, but as a form, it would be better if religions would get at their essential Jesus, and quit cutting loopholes for themselves out of the bread of life...

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Do you think the world of today is becoming increasingly corrupt due to humanity rejecting God and embracing atheism?

No, the reverse is true. If one looks at history, one can see that the more religious a society is, the more immoral it is. It is in secular societies that the ideas of liberty most thrive.

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

While it is true that there has always been wars, famine. plague it seems to me that we are coming increasingly closer to some sort of an Apocalypse unless we change our ways and become truly altruistic to our fellow man.??

We are closer to an apocalypse because we have greater abilities than ever before.

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Without a god figure man is left to his own devises and becomes accountable only to himself "Let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"

That is false. There are many examples of philosophers deriving morality without any god, which is not reducible to your quote. Here is one example:

Epicurus and Epicurean Philosophy
Epicurus.info : Epicurean Philosophy Online

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Because there is no longer the possibility of a judgment after death murder has almost become as common as stepping on a cockroach I see this every day where I live in South Africa.

You personally see people being murdered every day? Surely, that is a bit of hyperbole.

Murder has occurred throughout history; it is not a new invention. The murder rate is connected with things like the level of desperation that people feel, as well as the frustration that they feel.

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@Alan McDougall,

Pyrrho,

While is is true religion is responsible for appalling crimes against humanity the very same can be said about certain philosophical ideas like communism etc.

You do not have to be religious to believe in God and the fact that you might have to account to him for what you have done, both good and evil during your earthly sojourn. I have separated myself from any religious organization but retain a profound belief and respect for the Almighty.

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@Alan McDougall,

Idealism is a religion; but survival from the perspective of a criminal is not an ideal, but a necessity justifying many deaths...

It is impossible to believe in God withut being spiritual... But the situation is on your side because all conception, idealization, and abstraction exists within us a though spirit, and we cannot conceive of the quality of life, or any quality as representing reality except as the spirit of the thing, as essence...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;116857 wrote:

Idealism is a religion; but survival from the perspective of a criminal is not an ideal, but a necessity justifying many deaths...

It is impossible to believe in God withut being spiritual... But the situation is on your side because all conception, idealization, and abstraction exists within us a though spirit, and we cannot conceive of the quality of life, or any quality as representing reality except as the spirit of the thing, as essence...

I consider myself a very spiritual person, but insist I do not follow any religious dogma or doctrine or belong to any church organization, as far as perception of god is concerned I make up my own idea on it but do not force my belief on anyone else. I hate plagiarizers

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@Alan McDougall,

To be human is to be spiritual... We conceive of the spirit of all things much as our own lives cannot be grasped in the least without some reference to some spiritual form, like soul... We do not have things in our minds, but their spirits as ideas seem to be...We do not have mind; but the spiritual essence of consciousness...It is because spiritualism is so natural to mankind that we should avoid it... We use form/ideas to think; but the tables can be turned on us to where we accept our forms whole, without thought, and only with belief, and in that condition the form inhibits thought...We are wont to accept God as a spiritual form...Okay; to what purpose???

If I hold the form of a salt shaker in my mind it because I need it, or think I do... What do we need the form of a God in our minds for???Is it to give us the hope of justice which all people should seek at all times???Is it to explain our fate, our condition, our place, our purpose???Is God to keep us from cosmic loneliness???If God offers a spiritual solution to all of these problems He is serving an evil purpose... If God were real, and one would say he must be -to be conceived, then he could afford to retire on widows mites alone, but he is not earning his wages, and for that reason, of corrupt forms, people both flee to the churches, and flee out of them...

Church isn't working because it is corrupt, (And a failure at explaining reality) and government is not working because it is corrupt, and every vice is accepted by both because vices divide the very people who must unite to end corruption in their forms for good and all.. The churches could all be razed, and the world would not be better or worse for it...I do not expect people to be other than spiritual, but when they jump to pat conclusion to save their fat heads from figures then they will hear from me...God is a pat answer from a by- gone- age....Its success represents the failure of modern society, but it is corruption, and always was...

If I may point out the obvious...The spiritual conception of reality, which is all we have, is a definition of finite reality...Okay; the bulk of our conception is of a spiritual/moral reality to begin with... We need all the virtues to feed our souls, and conceive of both spiritually... So with our moral forms we attempt to define an infinite reality of our spiritual being, our lives, and this is like abstratracting from abstraction; but the reality of our lives give these spirital forms some reality which we know as meaning, so they serve a physical purpose to living beings... Their existence as spiritual concept is justified by the well being of the person who conceives of himself spiritually...

The health of society justifies morality, even though morality is a spiritual conception of a spiritual reality...All of our spiritual forms rest on the quicksand of life...Yet they all serve a good purpose, except God, because God does not tell truth, or cause good to occur, or correct our moral ils, or save us from lonliness...In fact, God is not like the virtues, -an abstraction of an abstraction of reality...It is a third level of abstraction... We have our lives as the only reality conceived of spiritually... On top of that we can conceive of this spirit of ourselves in the abstractions of good and evil, and as hero or outlaw, that is, of a spiritual wellness, an atmosphere of hope and not of forbodding, and God comes out of this sense of our own spiritual well ness, as an abstraction of Good; as pangloss said: everything is for the best....

Concepts; abstractions of reality, are knowledge... Spiritual notions of a spiritual being are not knowledge, but only theory, as if real...God once explained all reality, and still does to many people...Now it is a simple question based upon the fact that many people seem to reject the real world with real needs for the spiritual world with spiritual needs... Do they not reject all reason to accept God, and all science, all math and measure of reality as unreality in relation to their unreal reality; and does this not only make them the enemy of life, but of human kind???

People are never more human than when they admit their physical needs in the physical world and admit that their physical being represents their successful understanding of their nature...They are never less human when they presume creation by God because to accept what the intellect rejects is not just folly, but madness...

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@Alan McDougall,

Fido, heck man not everything under the sun is corrupt, but I must agree with you that government and most, but not all church organizations are corrupt.

There are good decent people I believe I am one and I can see so are you by your incisive dialogue

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;116874 wrote:

Fido, heck man not everything under the sun is corrupt, but I must agree with you that government and most, but not all church organizations are corrupt.

There are good decent people I believe I am one and I can see so are you by your incisive dialogue

They are all corrupt because the try to make something out of nothing.

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;116916 wrote:

They are all corrupt because the try to make something out of nothing.

So they have nothing to offer except corruption? What is this nothing you are refering to?

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@Alan McDougall,

Corruption is not nothing, but less than, a negative...I'd like to have a dollar for every time in my life I have heard some Christian of some denomination wishing some one to hell...It may not be fun, and it seems like hard work, but if you believe in God, and follow his ways, don't you think it would be better to save as many as possible even if it may mean keeping some sinner around for life??? It is this thought, that I take for a fact, that people here want not salvation for all but only saving for self and damnation for others that I find most disturbing in Christians...Churches are just another form, and they keep their unity by those they reject...

1 Reply

@Fido,

Fido;117144 wrote:

Corruption is not nothing, but less than, a negative...I'd like to have a dollar for every time in my life I have heard some Christian of some denomination wishing some one to hell...It may not be fun, and it seems like hard work, but if you believe in God, and follow his ways, don't you think it would be better to save as many as possible even if it may mean keeping some sinner around for life??? It is this thought, that I take for a fact, that people here want not salvation for all but only saving for self and damnation for others that I find most disturbing in Christians...Churches are just another form, and they keep their unity by those they reject...

'Tis true I'm afraid and very saddening, however, can we not at least agree that there is a difference between what is being taught and what is being practiced? And that simply because a body of people aren't living by their own standards, does not mean that the message is any less valid?
I totally agree that the worst witness for the Christian church today are the members themselves in most cases.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Without a god figure man is left to his own devises and becomes accountable only to himself "Let us eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"

Man has set in place laws to restrain the negative aspects to our natures, and along with those laws comes a punishment as reinforcement. Man's consciousness also sets parameters to our behaviour, and the punishment is self loathing conscious or subconscious. Man's religions also define the correct behaviour path to be followed, and the punishment is eternal damnation. Non compliance of two of these brings a punishment in the present and the other a punishment into the future. I agree that a society that has these three intimidations in place is better than only two, so I agree with you that religion aids social stability.

Quote:

Because there is no longer the possibility of a judgment after death murder has almost become as common as stepping on a cockroach I see this every day where I live in South Africa.

Alan is it true that in S.A. the wealthy install flame shooting devices to their cars to ward off car jackers?

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@Psycobabble,

Psycobabble;117176 wrote:

Man has set in place laws to restrain the negative aspects to our natures, and along with those laws comes a punishment as reinforcement. Man's consciousness also sets parameters to our behaviour, and the punishment is self loathing conscious or subconscious. Man's religions also define the correct behaviour path to be followed, and the punishment is eternal damnation. Non compliance of two of these brings a punishment in the present and the other a punishment into the future. I agree that a society that has these three intimidations in place is better than only two, so I agree with you that religion aids social stability.

Interesting. I agree with what you've said(though I would add that that IMO a deeper understanding of religion has nothing to do with intimidation) but at the same time the question my mind wants to ask is that shouldn't the ultimate goal for humanity be that we don't need the intimidation and that we do the right thing because it's the right thing to do?

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@Amperage,

Alan McDougall;116037 wrote:

Do you think the world of today is becoming increasingly corrupt due to humanity rejecting God and embracing atheism?

Yes the world is becoming increasingly corrupt and yes humanity is rejecting God, but I don't thing they are directly related.

Humanity has become focused on their own short term gratification through what they consume rather then the long term well being of themselves, family, community, country or world. This ultimately reflects on the belief/health of their immortal soul which carries you from this life into the next.

Aedes;116153 wrote:

It was a major causal factor, especially in WWII.

Money can be said to be the major causal factor of any war. Ask the Kings, Emperor, President, etc. that started the war, or the soldier fighting it and ask him if it was over money. Thats something historians say.

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@Psycobabble,

Psycobabble;117176 wrote:

Man has set in place laws to restrain the negative aspects to our natures, and along with those laws comes a punishment as reinforcement. Man's consciousness also sets parameters to our behaviour, and the punishment is self loathing conscious or subconscious. Man's religions also define the correct behaviour path to be followed, and the punishment is eternal damnation. Non compliance of two of these brings a punishment in the present and the other a punishment into the future. I agree that a society that has these three intimidations in place is better than only two, so I agree with you that religion aids social stability.

Alan is it true that in S.A. the wealthy install flame shooting devices to their cars to ward off car jackers?

I dont think so but they murder you here for less than a dollar or fr your cell phone, below is an article I wrote about the appaling plague of crime in South Africa
!

The walled-in fortified nation.

Visitors to the beautiful land of South Africa are amazed that as they get off the plane and travel through cities of South Africa that they are amazed and confused with the maze of walled off houses, confined by high walls fortified by electric razor wire. The large beautiful houses in urban South Africa are thus impossible to see from the street. It appears to them that the inmates or criminals are on the outside on the loose walking and prowling the streets just waiting to pounce on innocent victims, while normal law abiding citizens are barricaded, confined, barred in and imprisoned in their own homes out of fear from these mobsters and evil monsters. This situation is bizarre and is not found in any other country.

The single most terrible problem S.A. is the horrible crime wave that continues to climb unabated and out of control and I do not think there is one family that has been unaffected by this evil, certainly not mine. Precious human life has become very cheap in South Africa and the annual death rate by crime nearly equals that of the Iraq war. It is realistically estimated (not the ridiculous low official statistic) that at least a hundred people are murdered each day in S.A. and by extrapolation a 100 times 365 equaling a horrifying realty of 36 400 per year and over the six year person of the Iraq war 6 times 36 400 = 218 400.

Of course the murders have being going on much longer than the Iraq war and if we go back 14 years we have the unbelievable statistic of 509 600 murders, is this not then a war situation? Have this many civilians died in Iraq over the past six years in Iraq? Maybe less than our statistic for murders in S.A. I believe. Why is this plague increasing, WHAT IS SUSTAINING THIS HORROR?? I believe it is because of a number of reasons.

The prime reason is the government's continual refusal to acknowledge that the crime wave in South Africa. is a national disaster needing emergency methods to deal with it now not in the future. Soft interpretation of our liberal constitution, results in the perpetrator getting off light sentences for horrendous depraved monstrous crimes that seem to be unique to S.A,. The rape of babies is something unique to South Africa with very young children, innocent woman, men of all ages and even the very elderly suffering the same fate in this epidemic of horror.

Murder is rampant throughout S.A and the killings are too often for the most ridiculously small rewards, such as a cell phone or 10 rand etc, etc. Unemployment and resulting poverty crime and grime are also major problems. Education must become a national priority. Overcrowding Of prisons are turning petty criminals into evil monsters. The easy availability and access to cheap street drugs and the easy access of unlawful guns to criminals and abnormal love of money, by them gives them power they should not have.

It is now almost impossible for a decent law obeying citizens to get a gun to protect himself and his family from these depraved monsters, while criminals can get their hands on guns for as little as a $.1. The AK 47 machine gun is used against woman and children going about their shopping

The Government involves itself in setting out petty ridiculous laws such as the ban on public smoking or forbidding teenagers to kiss or cuddle and these nonsensical laws are given more focus and comment by the government than our horrendous crime rate and appalling poverty experienced in our beautiful land.

Then there is the unimaginable ignorance around the AIDS pandemic. By the government refusing to address this problems even sprouting nonsense like HIV never progresses to full blown AIDS. Sort of HIV is on Venus and AIDS is only found on Mars .This appalling lack of foresight and insight by the South African government is estimated to have resulted in the untimely death of about 400 000 people. These are the people who would still be living if they had been given the government with held antiviral medication in time. The desperate dying people were told by the idiot minister of health to each the African potato herb, mixed into a concoction of garlic and cabbage etc and other useless "STUFF"

In addition, money must be urgently allocated where it is most needed, not to sports stadiums; Gau- trains huge unnecessary arms deals etc, as examples. I feel that given the national disaster crime has become, it is also a national shame and a crime by us and the government to continue paying the ridiculously low salaries to the police officers and police woman that offer up their lives for us, for this puny reward. We must, give our police a living salary now, sooner than later" when it might indeed be too late for us all. In this beautiful country.

The hand of a gun and the loss of moral absolutes that comes with no longer believing in a righteous God and eternal consequence for active evil. (Eternal punishment) is a so very sad to me. It is eat drink for tomorrow we die There is a belief now, with a loss of religious conviction and belief in God by the youth, that there is no eternal consequences for evil acts. Believe me God is just, righteous holy and all will face God in that final day of judgments and answer for every act, both good and evil that they committed in this school we call life.

"IN GOD WE MUST TRUST"

BY ALAN. MCDOUGALL 5/10/2007

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@Amperage,

Amperage;117175 wrote:

'Tis true I'm afraid and very saddening, however, can we not at least agree that there is a difference between what is being taught and what is being practiced? And that simply because a body of people aren't living by their own standards, does not mean that the message is any less valid?
I totally agree that the worst witness for the Christian church today are the members themselves in most cases.

There is nothing to be taught, no certain knowledge, and just a mismash of prejudice...

1 Reply

Do you think the world has become corrupt because we have rejected God?

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