0
   

Could the theory of evolution as it stands be wrong??

 
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 04:04 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105559 wrote:
I don't think there is much the matter with natural selection as a biological theory. However it is clear that the meaning of the theory has been used in the context of many issues which were previously understood to be philosophical and/or religious. It also might be the case that it is not as complete as it has always been held to be. So it is fair to question the extent to which it provides a complete account of the nature of life and the universe. The fact that no discernable purpose can be observed in the level of the interaction of species with the environment does not necessarily mean that there is no such purpose. If there were a 'purpose', a 'grand design', how would you test for it? How would it show up?

Saying 'it all happens just so' is not an explanation of anything.


It is incomplete in one absolutely important fact, evolution does not explain how life started, how it morphed from inanimate elements into living protoplasm
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 04:11 am
@Alan McDougall,
but to be fair, this could be discoved, and I am sure, one way or another, it happened. I really don't want to be involved with creationism in any kind of crude sense. I like the idea that life arises due to lawful possibilities in an ordered universe. I think there are 'tendencies to life' in the Universe and that maybe life tends to develop in certain directions. But I don't want a svengali to have to wave a magic wand. i really don't go along with the intelligent design idea, except for in the sense that the design is intelligent enough to imbue the universe with everthing required for life to unfold at the instant of creation.

Then, maybe, life is one of the constituents. Maybe life itself is irreducable. There's an idea I could go with. But I am having a problem imagining what it is.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 04:15 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;105566 wrote:
It is incomplete in one absolutely important fact, evolution does not explain how life started, how it morphed from inanimate elements into living protoplasm


I find it interesting Alan for how much you seem to pick out of the science stuff you post that you have failed to come across this:
Quote:

A fundamental but elusive step in the early evolution of life on Earth has been replicated in a laboratory.
Researchers synthesized the basic ingredients of RNA, a molecule from which the simplest self-replicating structures are made. Until now, they couldn't explain how these ingredients might have formed.
"It's like molecular choreography, where the molecules choreograph their own behavior," said organic chemist John Sutherland of the University of Manchester, co-author of a study in Nature Wednesday.
RNA is now found in living cells, where it carries information between genes and protein-manufacturing cellular components. Scientists think RNA existed early in Earth's history, providing a necessary intermediate platform between pre-biotic chemicals and DNA, its double-stranded, more-stable descendant.
However, though researchers have been able to show how RNA's component molecules, called ribonucleotides, could assemble into RNA, their many attempts to synthesize these ribonucleotides have failed. No matter how they combined the ingredients - a sugar, a phosphate, and one of four different nitrogenous molecules, or nucleobases - ribonucleotides just wouldn't form.
Sutherland's team took a different approach in what Harvard molecular biologist Jack Szostak called a "synthetic tour de force" in an accompanying commentary in Nature.
"By changing the way we mix the ingredients together, we managed to make ribonucleotides," said Sutherland. "The chemistry works very effectively from simple precursors, and the conditions required are not distinct from what one might imagine took place on the early Earth."

Like other would-be nucleotide synthesizers, Sutherland's team included phosphate in their mix, but rather than adding it to sugars and nucleobases, they started with an array of even simpler molecules that were probably also in Earth's primordial ooze.
They mixed the molecules in water, heated the solution, then allowed it to evaporate, leaving behind a residue of hybrid, half-sugar, half-nucleobase molecules. To this residue they again added water, heated it, allowed it evaporate, and then irradiated it.
At each stage of the cycle, the resulting molecules were more complex. At the final stage, Sutherland's team added phosphate. "Remarkably, it transformed into the ribonucleotide!" said Sutherland.
According to Sutherland, these laboratory conditions resembled those of the life-originating "warm little pond" hypothesized by Charles Darwin if the pond "evaporated, got heated, and then it rained and the sun shone."
Such conditions are plausible, and Szostak imagined the ongoing cycle of evaporation, heating and condensation providing "a kind of organic snow which could accumulate as a reservoir of material ready for the next step in RNA synthesis."
Intriguingly, the precursor molecules used by Sutherland's team have been identified in interstellar dust clouds and on meteorites.
"Ribonucleotides are simply an expression of the fundamental principles of organic chemistry," said Sutherland. "They're doing it unwittingly. The instructions for them to do it are inherent in the structure of the precursor materials. And if they can self-assemble so easily, perhaps they shouldn't be viewed as complicated."
[/I]


To make a statement like you did and not know the current state of bio-chemistry is confusing. Maybe you don't accept the findings? Maybe you reject the findings? Maybe you want to ignore the findings? I can't figure it out Alan. Were you not aware of these experiments? Were you not aware of the success of these experiments?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 04:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
Got a reference on that one?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 04:31 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105572 wrote:
Got a reference on that one?


Nope I made the whole thing up. Actually if you google pretty much any line from that quote youll probably pull up about a dozen sites on it.

You can also check out this by running it through google.

Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 05:40 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;105569 wrote:
I find it interesting Alan for how much you seem to pick out of the science stuff you post that you have failed to come across this:
[/I]


To make a statement like you did and not know the current state of bio-chemistry is confusing. Maybe you don't accept the findings? Maybe you reject the findings? Maybe you want to ignore the findings? I can't figure it out Alan. Were you not aware of these experiments? Were you not aware of the success of these experiments?


Interesting but they did not create life!! Maybe one day they will but as for me I very much doubt it Anyway they are using material that already exits, man creates nothing only discovers what already exists
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 06:14 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105524 wrote:
thanks Dave I will have to take this in some more. But I am still resistant to the idea of trying to explain all human attributes by way of evolution.

To clarify - I'm not claiming they can.

What I was hoping to illustrate is that when people say things like "evolution can't explain musical appreciation" they might actually be wrong - even though musical appreciation might seem a very strange thing to have evolved - because certain things about why we like music are understood in naturalistic terms, and our tendancy to be impressed by virtuosity (in any field) is also an apparent advantage in evolutionary terms.

And even if something could be proposed that had everyone shaking their heads and saying "there's no way i can propose a natural explanation" - you'd still have to be careful, because someone might come along who can.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 06:20 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;105580 wrote:
Interesting but they did not create life!! Maybe one day they will but as for me I very much doubt it Anyway they are using material that already exits, man creates nothing only discovers what already exists


I am not really sure what you are implying here.

But if you want to get technical. Humans have created elements that don't naturally exist in nature. From the understanding of chemistry we have in a sense created elements because they didn't previously exist to our knowledge.

They might not have created life from these experiments, but it is a promising start to understanding just one possibility of how life began. Perhaps one day the whole process will unfold and the end product will be considered something organic and living.

I almost sense a sort of HA! man cant create a universe so there! in your response. But wouldn't you be implying that something else did? It is a little contradictory that you require proof from scientific endeavors but when it comes to your theology it requires absolutely none.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 06:28 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan,

I think you're quite right; there are many 'things' about evolution that we're not 100% certain about. The field changes daily with new ideas, dispelling of previously-held notions and addition of recent discoveries. You're also correct in that mutation-causation doesn't hold all the whys of evolution - it alone can't explain all changes. As I understand it - it's only one part of one aspect of organism evolution; with others being environment, predation/other-organism interaction, sexual selection, geographic and climate changes, genetic drift, tectonic events and much, much more.

It - lineage of various species - is also full of 'dead ends', woopsies and inviable offshoots. I'd even go out on a limb and suggest that most mutation-driven change events, over time (were we able to know them all), likely resulted in an nonviable organism. Again, I think it's just part of the whole evolution process.
Thanks
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 06:47 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;105549 wrote:
THE FEMALE PELVIS Human adaptation to walking upright has made giving birth more dangerous for women than for any other primate.

Sure. Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Evolution favours the following explanation:

Bipedalism saves a lot of energy.

It also frees up our hands for tool use, which is a major reason for our success.

It has the disadvantage that birth is difficult and that back problems plague humans in later life.

However, the energy saved and the boons provided by tool use make us more successful in our given niche than quadrapeds.

The advantages outweigh the disadvantages, so bipedalism stays dispite it's problems. Over time human tool mastery, as well as a slight widening of hips, have made birth much safer for women.

Quote:
LINEAR CHROMOSOMES The ends of linear chromosomes erode as cells divide, something that
cannot happen with circular chromosomes

I'm not sure why this is a challenge.

Quote:
EXTERNAL TESTICLES In harm's way VAGINA AND URETHRA NEAR ANUS Leaves women
prone to genital and urinary infections

Sure - nasty. Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Evolution first developed sperm and testes in fish. Sperm works best at a relatively low temperature - no problem for fish as they live in an effective coolant - water. Amphibians live in water most of the time too. Reptiles have cold blood, so just need to get out of the sun if they are overheating.

Mammals have warm blood, and if the testes were kept in the body cavity sperm would lose motility.

So an adaptation has occurred whereby the testes develop in the chest (like fish) but travel down to the scrotum. Most of this happens before you are born, but the final stage occurs in puberty (the dropping of the testicles).

Whilst the scrotum is vulnerable, it is cooler than the rest of the body, meaning that more sperm benefit from the lower temperature, and making it more likely that a mammal with the adaptation will father children han one without.

Quote:
WISDOM TEETH Many of us have jaws that are too small for these third molars

Yeah, ouch, I needed some of mine removed to avoid an infection that would have eventually killed me. Thanks modern science of dentistry!

Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Biologists generally propose to explain it thus.

Early homnids such as Australopithicus aferensis and Homo habilis began to develop a vocabulary of language and facial expression that is much more varied and intricate than other great apes with longer muzzles.

The benefits of being able to better articulate facial and vocal expression outweighed the disadvantage of increased problems with rear molars.

Quote:
MUTANT GLO GENE Like most primates, humans cannot make vitamin C, rendering us vulnerable to scurvy unless we get plenty in our diet

Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Biologists think our original niche was pretty rich in fruit - hence no need to get vitamin C from other sources.

Scurvy only becomes a major issue when humans place themselves in an environment with no readily accessable vitamin C - such as a long sea voyage.

However, our mastery of tool use has overcome this problem - we now can carry pills of vitamin C into space.

Quote:
THE APPENDIX No known function but if it gets infected it can kill you

Yeah, ouch, I needed mine removed to avoid an infection that would have eventually killed me. Thanks modern science of surgery!

Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Biologists think it's a vestigal organ that helped our ancestors digest uncooked complex starches, proteins and fibre, and the like.

Thanks to our mastery of tool use we now cook our food and don't require our appendix (though some research shows that it helps pregnant women in an as yet unexplained manner).

The appendix is still there (it doesn't just go away because we don't use it) but because it is no longer needed for our survival it has become vestigal - like the eyes of an animal that lives in a cave.

Vestigal organs can still get infections, and the appendix is notorious for such because it can provide a handy home for bacteria.

Quote:
WINDPIPE NEXT TO THE GULLET Means choking is not uncommon

Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Biologists point out that it's not a problem for fish. They breathe over their gills so a blocked gullet doesn't starve them of air.

They might eventually starve to death - but they'll have plenty of time to try and get their gullet unblocked.

When animals developed lungs, and made the move to land - it bacame an issue.

But the benefis of terrestial living outweigh the disadvantage of occasional choking - so the gullet/windpipe stays because evolving an extra orifice unfortunately did not occur.

Quote:
ULNAR NERVE Runs behind the elbow, where it is unprotected (think funny bone), instead of in front of it

God made it so why?

As prior example - it does in us, but it doesn't in animals biologists reckon we evolved from.

Quote:
VULNERABLE BRAIN CELLS A few minutes of oxygen deprivation causes permanent brain damage in humans, yet an epaulette shark can survive for over an hour without oxygen

Sure, but the metabolism of a shark is designed to cope with a niche that is cool, under pressure and very different to ours.

Quote:
PARASITIC DNA Our genome is littered with "jumping genes" that can cause genetic diseases

Yes, to our perspective, but these genes are also subject to natural selection, and trying to find a way to (unconsciously) survive and replicate. Some of them are - unfortunately - good at it.

Quote:
ODONTOID PROCESS This extension of the last neck vertebra can easily fracture and damage the brainstem

But the benefits of balancing our head atop our neck outweigh this disadvantage.

Quote:
FEET After coming down from the trees, we ended up walking on the "wrists" of our lower limbs, leading to all sorts of structural weaknesses

Again, would you rather be subject to twisted ankles, or live in a tree?

Benefits > disadvantages.

Quote:
THE Y CHROMOSOME It is gathering mutations because it can't swap DNA with the X chromosome

But why is this an objection?

Quote:
VULNERABLE HEARTS A little heart damage triggers a disastrous cascade of events that causes further damage

Most complex organs suffer similar issues.

But you're better off with a complex heart that might go wrong than a simple one that wouldn't support a terrestial mammal of some size.

Now if you believe in intelligent design or creationism - why did God make it like this?

Quote:
HAIRY BOTTOMS Who needs them?

Many animals without clothes to help regulate temperature. We use clothes, so our body hair is vestigal, and we tend to associate it with "animalness".

---------- Post added 11-24-2009 at 07:55 AM ----------

jeeprs;105555 wrote:
Consider this: if it is true that 'nature is dumb' and all of life has come about through 'unintentional causes' then ipso facto the only purposes in nature are those which conscious beings - that is, ourselves - are capable of forming.

Sure - it's my understanding that this is what Existentialism's all about.

Or absurdism, if not.

Quote:
In saying this, I am saying nothing that Plato, Liebniz, Descartes, Spinoza, Kant or Hegel would say.

But would they have said it if they were cognizant of modern understanding of the theory of evolution?

---------- Post added 11-24-2009 at 07:58 AM ----------

Alan McDougall;105566 wrote:
It is incomplete in one absolutely important fact, evolution does not explain how life started, how it morphed from inanimate elements into living protoplasm

Evolution never laid claim on this.

It's hypothesised through Abiogenesis.

I posted two videos about it in answer to one of your earlier questions.

Did you watch them?

Protoplasm - by the by - is a pretty arcane term. It's a Victorian idea about cellualr life which has since been overturned.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 08:49 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105572 wrote:
Got a reference on that one?


Powner MW, Gerland B, Sutherland JD. Synthesis of activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides in prebiotically plausible conditions. Nature. 2009 May 14;459(7244):239-42.

Abstract:
[INDENT]At some stage in the origin of life, an informational polymer must have arisen by purely chemical means. According to one version of the 'RNA world' hypothesis this polymer was RNA, but attempts to provide experimental support for this have failed. In particular, although there has been some success demonstrating that 'activated' ribonucleotides can polymerize to form RNA, it is far from obvious how such ribonucleotides could have formed from their constituent parts (ribose and nucleobases). Ribose is difficult to form selectively, and the addition of nucleobases to ribose is inefficient in the case of purines and does not occur at all in the case of the canonical pyrimidines. Here we show that activated pyrimidine ribonucleotides can be formed in a short sequence that bypasses free ribose and the nucleobases, and instead proceeds through arabinose amino-oxazoline and anhydronucleoside intermediates. The starting materials for the synthesis-cyanamide, cyanoacetylene, glycolaldehyde, glyceraldehyde and inorganic phosphate-are plausible prebiotic feedstock molecules, and the conditions of the synthesis are consistent with potential early-Earth geochemical models. Although inorganic phosphate is only incorporated into the nucleotides at a late stage of the sequence, its presence from the start is essential as it controls three reactions in the earlier stages by acting as a general acid/base catalyst, a nucleophilic catalyst, a pH buffer and a chemical buffer. For prebiotic reaction sequences, our results highlight the importance of working with mixed chemical systems in which reactants for a particular reaction step can also control other steps.
[/INDENT]
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 09:07 am
@Alan McDougall,
Whilst abiogenesis isn't as well understood as evolution I don't think anyone could seriously claim that it wasn't pretty thorough.

Unless they want to dismiss it without actually looking into it.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 01:06 pm
@Alan McDougall,
And back on that theme of existentialism and absurdism - correct, that is a response to the depiction of 'blind nature in a meaningless universe' that has been drawn as a philosophical implication of Darwinism. This is exactly what I am challenging. To put it in really crude terms, maybe nature is smart, not dumb; maybe things work towards a purpose, which is not obvious but can be discerned. That does not contradict darwin; it just considers a level of understanding which was out of scope for what he needed to explain.

---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 06:10 AM ----------

so even in light of life forming spontaneously in the primeval soup - and I am sure it did - why did it continue to become more and more intelligent? I really don't think 'in order to survive' is a philosophically satisfactory answer. You could just as easily say that it had to master the trick of survival in order to evolve towards its higher forms. So why might this not be a self-actualizing principle in the universe itself? There is nothing in evolutionary science which is either for this or against it; but it is just the kind of thing that Western materialism will not contemplate, because the picture of a blind process in a dumb universe suits it better, as it supports the idea that there is no will other than the man's. That is what I think is the real agenda, spiritually speaking.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 01:18 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105639 wrote:
And back on that theme of existentialism and absurdism - correct, that is a response to the depiction of 'blind nature in a meaningless universe' that has been drawn as a philosophical implication of Darwinism. This is exactly what I am challenging. To put it in really crude terms, maybe nature is smart, not dumb; maybe things work towards a purpose, which is not obvious but can be discerned. That does not contradict darwin; it just considers a level of understanding which he was out of scope for what he needed to explain.

You seem to require of Darwin an explanation that is unscientific. He didn't NEED to explain anything beyond principles to account for what he observed about the natural world - science, in other words. It's not Darwin who conflates science and philosophy - but you.

If you are happy with evolution as a scientific theory - why demand more of Darwin?

If you want to have a pop at absurdism then go ahead - but in trying to claim Darwin or evolution is somehow absurdist by definition demonstrates that you aren't reconciling the differences between scientific explanations, and ideological worldveiws.

Ideological worldveiws which aren't shared by biologists as a gestalt anyway (and even if they were it wouldn't make is necessary).

---------- Post added 11-24-2009 at 02:27 PM ----------

Quote:
so even in light of life forming spontaneously in the primeval soup - and I am sure it did - why did it continue to become more and more intelligent?

The vast majority of it didn't.

Per capita single-celled life dominates the ecosystem, and is no more intelligent now than it was back then, really.

Only a tiny proportion of life is intelligent as we understand it. Plants, Fungi, Bacteria - pretty thick as far as we can tell.

The development of sensory complexity as a result of natural selection doesn't strike me as impossible to understand in evolutionary terms. A niche for such things was waiting to be exploited, and when animals arose to exploit it a positive feedback loop occured providing ever more benefit to ever increased sensitivity.

Resulting eventually in an animal with true sapience - Homo sapiens.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 02:04 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Yes, but it happens for a reason. I don't want to make an ideology out of the reason, just to have the conviction that it does.

And I am not demanding more of Darwin - this is a philosophy forum, and the topic that we impinge on a great deal is the impact of various biological and cognitive sciences on religious, philosophical and spiritual attitudes towards existence.
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 02:25 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105639 wrote:
why did it continue to become more and more intelligent?
It didn't. Not for a LOOOONG time. Eukaryotes have only been around for about a billion years. A good 2 billion years passed where all life on earth was eubacteria and archaebacteria. After the emergence of eukaryotes, for most of subsequent evolution, there was unicellular (i.e. protozoal) life. More complex yes, but not more "intelligent". After that, along the bikont arm we got chromists and plants. Along the unikont arm we got fungi and animals. Fungi, plants, and animals are multicellular -- but which ones have intelligence? Not plants. Not fungi. Early animals? Are you saying that coral, sea anemones, sea cucumbers, and sea sponges are intelligent? Is a barnacle more intelligent than a blade of grass? Or does it have a simple neural system that mediates a survival strategy?

Point is that intelligence is a very recent innovation among a very small subgroup of life on earth. And it's clearly advantageous for a non-vegetative (i.e. mobile) organism to be intelligent, to solve problems.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 02:35 pm
@Aedes,
The salient idea is that this stuff...

http://www.utexas.edu/features/graphics/2008/tree/tree3.jpg

...is all equally evolved.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 02:42 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I agree, of course it is 'advantageous for survival', but please see how it might be construed as belittling to humanity to be told that really our intellectual ability, the mind which designed the Chartres Cathedral and the Bach Fugues and the Summae Theologica is (1) an accident and (2) a byproduct of the activities of the Selfish Gene.

Maybe it takes 2 billion years for a brain to develop which is capable of this level of development. But the Darwinian account of the human species is reductionist.

---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 07:48 AM ----------

My real target of this is Dennett, Dawkins and all the secular fundamentalists who make a religion out of science. If their attitude changed it would be considerably less polarizing for the whole culture.
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 02:59 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;105654 wrote:
I agree, of course it is 'advantageous for survival', but please see how it might be construed as belittling to humanity to be told that really our intellectual ability, the mind which designed the Chartres Cathedral and the Bach Fugues and the Summae Theologica is (1) an accident and (2) a byproduct of the activities of the Selfish Gene.

Just depends on your point of veiw - I don't find it belittling, but fascinating to assume the process ended up where it ended up.

An accidental byproduct made all this?

Cool!
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 03:18 pm
@Alan McDougall,
But you are not likely to produce books patiently explaining to the rest of us ignorant earthlings why all of our traditional culture is based on a delusion.

And, as I said before, and I think it remains unrebutted, if nature is blind and dumb, there is no real notion of truth possible, in the sense in which it is understood in Western philosophy. It is actually a non-rational view, in the traditional understanding of the word 'reason'. We are just being carried forward in what remaining momentum our dying culture has accumulated. It is possible that the import of the situation is not actually clear to you.

---------- Post added 11-25-2009 at 08:27 AM ----------

Anyway leaving aside all the cultural harrummphing, please have a look at this line of argument (exceprted from one of the outlinks on the OP). I have read various permutations of it. It seems like a good argument to me, but it might be codswallop and I am quite prepared to accept that it is if it can be shown. Excerpt as follows:

Quote:
[CENTER]Self Organization: Patterns vs. Codes[/CENTER]

In the Origins of Life discussion, "Self Organizing" properties of nature often come up. Frequently the conjecture is "Nature has self-organizing properties, and surely, somehow, proteins came together and formed RNA, then DNA, and the seeds of life began on the primitive earth."

Nature most certainly has self-organizing properties. Obviously some molecules have an affinity for each other, and there is an entire field called Chaos Theory, or Complex Systems theory that deals with this.

[CENTER]Examples of Self-Organization in Nature[/CENTER]

The following patterns happen naturally without any assistance from a designer:
  • Snowflakes
  • Tornados and Hurricanes
  • Weather
  • Stalagmites and Stalactites
  • Rivers
  • Sand Dunes

And much more

Chaos theory describes the underlying principles and the math behind this; mathematically speaking, all you need is a "nonlinear differential equation" and you get chaos. The entire field of Fractals is the computer-generated version of the same thing. Nature produces these fascinating patterns, and they happen all by themselves.

But there's one kind of design that does not occur naturally, so far as anyone knows:

What does NOT occur naturally is CODES.

Symbolic codes of any kind - things that contains language, a message, or information, any arrangement symbols that represent something other than itself - do not happen naturally. Blueprints, languages, ciphers, encoding / decoding mechanisms all come from a mind.

Just as there are no exceptions to the law of gravity, or the laws of entropy, there are no exceptions to this.

There is vast difference, in fact an infinite chasm, between a pattern and a code. Patterns occur naturally, codes do not. All codes contain patterns, but not all patterns contain codes. Codes can only come from a mind. There are no known exceptions to this.

[CENTER]Information Comes in Layers
[/CENTER]
In layman's terms, all codes contain the following four "layers":
  1. Alphabet (an agreed-upon set of characters, sounds or symbols)
  2. Grammar (words and phrases, and rules about how words and phrases are organized)
  3. Meaning (all codes mean something)
  4. Intent (there is some larger purpose and desire behind the meaning)

Again, all languages, codes, protocols, blueprints and the like contain these four layers.


More of the argument is at Darwin: Brilliantly Half-Right; Tragically Half-Wrong

Anything in it, what do you think? (Or does it need more detail to make a call on it?)
 

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