0
   

Could the theory of evolution as it stands be wrong??

 
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 02:14 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;117702 wrote:
Dave,

I see God behind creation a sort of intelligent designer who pushes or orders what we presume to be blind evolution, I admit a trawled the net for my last post, but some express my views better than I can


I'm interested as to why the evolution theory as it stands leaves you no room for God as the driving force? The word 'random' when talking about the slight changes in each new generation refers to (according to my limited knowledge) the fact that the changes can't be predicted. That doesn't mean God is not designing or driving these changes. You could easily keep your belief in God being the designer whilst accepting the evolution theory as it is. You could say that natural selection although appears to be directionless, is being guided by the creator. And like most things God-related, you couldn't prove it but nor could the science disprove it. Win-win.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 02:45 pm
@xris,
xris;117860 wrote:
Just retract your abuse and the debate might just continue.
Quote:
Have you been drinking my red wine?
just to be clear on where deterioration started.

and no, I am not the inebriated one.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 09:34 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;117862 wrote:
I'm interested as to why the evolution theory as it stands leaves you no room for God as the driving force? The word 'random' when talking about the slight changes in each new generation refers to (according to my limited knowledge) the fact that the changes can't be predicted. That doesn't mean God is not designing or driving these changes. You could easily keep your belief in God being the designer whilst accepting the evolution theory as it is. You could say that natural selection although appears to be directionless, is being guided by the creator. And like most things God-related, you couldn't prove it but nor could the science disprove it. Win-win.


I think very many people believe something like this. It is theistic evolution. It is not just a middle-of-the-road compromise either - it recognises, as does Stephen J Gould, religion and science deal with different levels of understanding. This is one reason why I am never interested in the idea of either proving that God exists, or that God doesn't exist.

My particular understanding, leaving aside whether I believe in God or not, I don't believe Deity 'plays a role' in actually desigining anything. It is more like the intelligence behind the way the rules of the Universe operate. Saying that there is an intelligence behind the rules is quite different to saying that there is an intelligence that gets involved in the outcomes of the rules. This is why I personally don't support Intelligent Design (what I know of it, anyway, and I am open to discussion of it.)

Check out this excellent essay

Interdisciplinary Documentation on Religion and Science | Anthology and Documents
memester
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:11 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;118409 wrote:
I Originally Posted by josh0335
Quote:

I'm interested as to why the evolution theory as it stands leaves you no room for God as the driving force? The word 'random' when talking about the slight changes in each new generation refers to (according to my limited knowledge) the fact that the changes can't be predicted. That doesn't mean God is not designing or driving these changes. You could easily keep your belief in God being the designer whilst accepting the evolution theory as it is. You could say that natural selection although appears to be directionless, is being guided by the creator. And like most things God-related, you couldn't prove it but nor could the science disprove it. Win-win.
very many people believe something like this. It is theistic evolution. It is not just a middle-of-the-road compromise either - it recognises, as does Stephen J Gould, religion and science deal with different levels of understanding. This is one reason why I am never interested in the idea of either proving that God exists, or that God doesn't exist.

My particular understanding, leaving aside whether I believe in God or not, I don't believe Deity 'plays a role' in actually desigining anything. It is more like the intelligence behind the way the rules of the Universe operate. Saying that there is an intelligence behind the rules is quite different to saying that there is an intelligence that gets involved in the outcomes of the rules. This is why I personally don't support Intelligent Design (what I know of it, anyway, and I am open to discussion of it.)

Check out this excellent essay

Interdisciplinary Documentation on Religion and Science | Anthology and Documents
Somewhat similarly - though denied vehemently - certain Evolutionists say that Natural Selection is a "guided process ( in the sense that...)"Laughing
0 Replies
 
josh0335
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 08:42 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;118409 wrote:
I think very many people believe something like this. It is theistic evolution. It is not just a middle-of-the-road compromise either - it recognises, as does Stephen J Gould, religion and science deal with different levels of understanding. This is one reason why I am never interested in the idea of either proving that God exists, or that God doesn't exist.

My particular understanding, leaving aside whether I believe in God or not, I don't believe Deity 'plays a role' in actually desigining anything. It is more like the intelligence behind the way the rules of the Universe operate. Saying that there is an intelligence behind the rules is quite different to saying that there is an intelligence that gets involved in the outcomes of the rules. This is why I personally don't support Intelligent Design (what I know of it, anyway, and I am open to discussion of it.)

Check out this excellent essay

Interdisciplinary Documentation on Religion and Science | Anthology and Documents


Thanks for the link. I agree with this from the essay in particular: "Moreover, the scientific community has sat by while certain scientists and philosophers, claiming the authority of science, have waged war against religion using the neo-Darwinian account of evolution as a metaphysical weapon."

I don't believe the evolution theory proves or disproves anything about God, or metaphysics in general.

Quote:
Saying that there is an intelligence behind the rules is quite different to saying that there is an intelligence that gets involved in the outcomes of the rules.


I can't really see how or why you would make that distinction. Could you explain?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 05:39 pm
@Alan McDougall,
it is an important distinction. I think the argument you get into when you say that certain aspects of life are too complex to have arisen via natural selection and must be the result of an intervening intelligence presents a host of unsolvable problems. If you conceive of diety as being 'a player' in the universe who acts in this way - designing the tricky bits, and leaving other parts to their own devices, then I think Richard Dawkins will have you on a hiding to nothing. If you read the Blind Watchmaker or Climbing Mount Improbable, there are many examples of how the most apparently unlikely outcomes emerge from the evolutionary process. And then you also have to explain why deity does this part, and not that part, and how diety can manage to design all of these innumerable complexities, and so on.

The understanding of the nature of creation from the viewpoint of a real theology, like the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas, is a completely different matter. This does not really concern itself with the details of how individual things come to be, but a very different level of explanation and interpretation. In my opinion, most of the players in the 'creationist debate' fail to comprehend the traditional perspective on the matter.

To get an idea of the traditionalist argument, consider the following:

Quote:
[Aquinas] pointed out that the Christian conception of God as the author of all truth and the notion that the aim of scientific research is the truth indicates that there can be no fundamental incompatibility between the two. Provided we understand Christian doctrine properly and do our science well, we will find the truth-not a religious truth and another scientific truth-but the truth, the way things actually exist and function. Yet, what about the apparent conflict between notion of creation from nothing and the scientific principle that for every natural motion or state there is an antecedent motion or state?

Thomas points out that the judgment that there is a conflict here results from confusion regarding the nature of creation and natural change. It is an error that I call the "Cosmogonical Fallacy." Those who are worried about conflict between faith and reason on this issue fail to distinguish between cause in the sense of a natural change of some kind and cause in the sense of an ultimate bringing into being of something from no antecedent state whatsoever. "Creatio non est mutatio," says Thomas, affirming that the act of creation is not some species of change. So, the Greek natural philosophers were quite correct: from nothing, nothing comes. By "comes" here is meant a change from one state to another and this requires some underlying material reality, some potentiality for the new state to come into being. This is because all change arises out of a pre-existing possibility for that change residing in something. Creation, on the other hand, is the radical causing of the whole existence of whatever exists. To be the complete cause of something's existence is not the same as producing a change in something. It is not a taking of something and making it into something else, as if there were some primordial matter which God had to use to create the universe. Rather, creation is the result of the divine agency being totally responsible for the production, all at once and completely, of the whole of the universe, with all it entities and all its operations, from absolutely nothing pre-existing.


From Thomas Aquinas vs the Intelligent Designers - emphasis added.

So in this understanding, it is not as if God 'helps out' with designing wings or eyes or the tricky bits of cells. Instead the nature of creation is far more profound.

There is a very interesting theistic evolutionary biologist called Simon Conway Morris who is an opponent of both Intelligent Design and materialist reductionism. His book, Life's Solution, puts forward a philosophical argument on solid scientific grounds that life appears to evolve in certain goal-directed ways. He is professor of Paleontology at Cambridge and a world-renowned expert on the Burgess Shales, so he is no slouch.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 06:08 am
@jeeprs,
Knowing the eventual outcome of evolution, not the various routes it may take is my concept of intelligent design. If evolutions purpose through nature is to attain perfection, then nature has the ability. It always had that ability, that formula. We to could be aware of these consequences, and engineer evolution elsewhere in the universe, by just knowing this fact. What we all must consider, is it possible that an engineer that capable is probable or is nature, just a natural phenomena.

Faith does not help, only reasonable reasoning. Its still hard to believe that at the beginning of the universe this eventual outcome of evolution through natures formula was destined to arrive, by just chance.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 08:29 pm
@xris,
xris;118782 wrote:
Knowing the eventual outcome of evolution, not the various routes it may take is my concept of intelligent design. If evolutions purpose through nature is to attain perfection, then nature has the ability. It always had that ability, that formula. We to could be aware of these consequences, and engineer evolution elsewhere in the universe, by just knowing this fact. What we all must consider, is it possible that an engineer that capable is probable or is nature, just a natural phenomena.

Faith does not help, only reasonable reasoning. Its still hard to believe that at the beginning of the universe this eventual outcome of evolution through natures formula was destined to arrive, by just chance.


Do you think that humanity is driving their own evolution?
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 08:38 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;118901 wrote:
Do you think that humanity is driving their own evolution?
In rather insignificant ways, yes. In most ways, no. And most of our effects on our own evolution are inadvertent.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 04:21 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;118901 wrote:
Do you think that humanity is driving their own evolution?
If humanity is part of evolution then what ever they cause is written into the formula. Everything in nature has an effect on everything else. The formula reacts to the circumstance.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 04:48 am
@xris,
xris;118954 wrote:
If humanity is part of evolution then what ever they cause is written into the formula. Everything in nature has an effect on everything else. The formula reacts to the circumstance.
The Formula has a formula for that, I guess.

I suddenly have the urge to watch old episodes of Oprah and "The Secret"
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 02:28 pm
@Alan McDougall,
well here's another way to look at it. Human beings are now less at the mercy of adaptive requirements than any other creature. Why? Because their intelligence makes them adaptable. They can live in any environment, create many types of food, and are more independent from the demands of nature than any other creature.

Perhaps one of the hallmarks of the human species is transcendence of evolution by natural selection.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 02:37 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;119005 wrote:
well here's another way to look at it. Human beings are now less at the mercy of adaptive requirements than any other creature. Why? Because their intelligence makes them adaptable. They can live in any environment, create many types of food, and are more independent from the demands of nature than any other creature.

Perhaps one of the hallmarks of the human species is transcendence of evolution by natural selection.
Is that part of the evolutionary plan?
memester
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 02:48 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;119005 wrote:
well here's another way to look at it. Human beings are now less at the mercy of adaptive requirements than any other creature. Why? Because their intelligence makes them adaptable. They can live in any environment, create many types of food, and are more independent from the demands of nature than any other creature.

Perhaps one of the hallmarks of the human species is transcendence of evolution by natural selection.
If behaviour - rather than the gene - can be thought of as the all-important factor in Evolution, then it's kinda like "business as usual".
Naturally, behaviour is the thing that got us into our present situations, and the only thing that can get us out. Even if it takes making new genes.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 02:58 pm
@memester,
memester;119010 wrote:
If behaviour - rather than the gene - can be thought of as the all-important factor in Evolution, then it's kinda like "business as usual".
Naturally, behaviour is the thing that got us into our present situations, and the only thing that can get us out. Even if it takes making new genes.
I dont think evolution works at the same speed as our technology of destruction. Do you need to find a gene history in a robot to realise it is an evolutionary invention? Can you prove it is not in the plan, in the formula.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 03:06 pm
@xris,
xris;119012 wrote:
I dont think evolution works at the same speed as our technology of destruction. Do you need to find a gene history in a robot to realise it is an evolutionary invention? Can you prove it is not in the plan, in the formula.
I don't understand your question. Prove "what" is not in the plan ?

As to speed of this or that, our behaviour can dictate what kind of - and how much - technology exists.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 07:15 pm
@memester,

Two hundred years ago, the biologist William Paley published a huge book called Natural Theology. It contains detailed descriptions of hundreds of animals, birds, fish and plants - the carefully collated results of a lifetime spent studying and cataloguing nature. Its detail is staggering, and Dr Paley's book remains a landmark in historical biology.

But he didn't intend it as a work of science. In fact, Paley was setting out to demonstrate something quite different: his idea was to prove beyond any doubt that God exists.

The book starts with a simple parable. Imagine you've just found a watch in the middle of a field - one of those old-fashioned clockwork pocket watches, presumably. Now, what is it about the watch that makes it different from the stones and pebbles lying around?

The answer is design. It's obvious that the watch has been carefully constructed by a human watchmaker. The wheels, pinions, coils and chains inside the watch's metal casing are shaped and assembled with a specific purpose in mind: telling the time. If the parts had been different, or fitted together in different ways, it wouldn't do anything of the sort.

The chances of a watch being constructed by blind chance are astronomically small. Where we have something that's clearly been designed for a specific purpose, we can safely say that a Designer gave it that purpose. Where there's a watch, Paley points out, there must be a watchmaker.

Now Paley invites us to draw the comparison between the watch and the world of nature. A fish's eye is much larger and rounder than a mammal's eye, with a crystalline lens that's good at concentrating rays of light passed through water.

As Paley wrote, "what plainer manifestation of design can there be than this difference?" Surely, if someone designed the watch, then by the same logic someone designed the fish? And the same goes for every other creature whose design is painstakingly described in Paley's book.

Of course, Paley was hardly the first to come up with this idea. People throughout history have looked around them at the wonders of nature and intuitively asked themselves, "How else can we explain all this except by God?"

But these days there's a problem. In the mid-19 century, Charles Darwin came along with an idea that changed the face of biology forever. His theory of evolution by natural selection did very nicely what Paley thought was impossible: it described how apparent design in nature can arise without any hint of a Designer. (Nature, to quote a modern-day Darwinian, is 'the blind watchmaker'.)

Darwinism is no real threat to our faith. After all, the Genesis story can be illuminating and meaningful, even if it's not literally true. But it is a problem for Paley, although he can't be blamed - he was writing 50 years earlier than Darwin. So was he barking up the wrong tree?

Well, surely there's more in the universe to be explained than the design of a fish's eye? If we agree that we don't need God to explain the design of life on Earth, even then there are some puzzles. For instance, scientists tell us that the universe itself looks 'designed', and Darwinism can't explain that.

The universe contains life. But not just any old universe would allow life to develop in the first place. To get life, you first need spatial dimensions, matter, energy, chemistry, atoms, stars, planets, gravity (and. antigravity, as it happens).

Luckily, our universe has all these things, and in precisely the right amounts to make it possible for life to develop. But without each of these key values being exactlyone in a billion. And yet - gasp - here we are!

So we're forced to believe both that God exists, and He designed the universe in order to create human life, or that we owe our existence to an astronomically huge coincidence.

For a hardened atheist, the second option might look tempting. But think about it. Imagine that your next-door neighbor wins the lottery jackpot every single week for a year. Do you go on your merry way, thinking nothing of it? Maybe? ("Ah well, it's an astronomically huge coincidence, but never mind!")

Well, what if, one day, you find out that your neighbor's brother works in the Lottery office and is in charge of handing out prizes? Do you still go on your merry way, without suspecting a thing? Of course not. A much better explanation for your neighbor's 'winning streak' presents itself - that the whole thing is a fix.

The situation with the universe is similar. I suppose it's remotely possible that the universe is special 'just by chance', in the same way that it's remotely possible that my neighbor could have won the lottery every week for a year just by being very, very, very lucky. But, as good scientists, we should prefer any alternative that doesn't depend on such ridiculous coincidences. Dr Paley was a good scientist, so maybe he wasn't so far wrong after all?
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jan, 2010 07:49 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Hi Alan - I sympathise with your stance, but I really do think Richard Dawkin's arguments in The Blind Watchmaker, Unweaving the Rainbow and Climbing Mount Improbable give very persuasive accounts of how the most apparently intricate living organisms can be shown to have evolved over very large periods of time. These periods of time were literally inconceivable in Paley's time. With due deference to the biologists and paleontologists who have subsquently elaborated a very believable account of the broad outlines of evolution, I accept that the theory of evolution is substantially correct in many particulars
.
If you leave aside Dawkin's anti-religion polemics, which I think are badly informed and tendentious, his explanations of the evolutionary biology are first-class examples of science writing. But I differ completely with the philosophical inferences he draws from the theory of evolution.

Accordingly, I still believe there is scope for a religious interpretation of the development of life. It is in some ways similar to the 'design' argument. It is based on the scientific speculation that the Universe itself appears to conform to very many specific parameters within which stars could form and give rise to heavy metals, carbon, and the other elements. This is the 'cosmogenic anthropic principle'. It is a very complex argument and far too deep to summarize here. But one interpretation of it is that it seems very much as if the Universe anticipated the development of intelligent life, such as ourselves, right from the outset - and that this eventuality was somehow embedded in 'the fabric of the cosmos' from the outset.

So a religious believer can then say 'well, the evolutionary process does indeed proceed according to the various stages that have been discovered, from single-celled organisms through various types of creature, as was intended'.

And I think that is a perfectly rational and defensible position. But I think it is a much more sophisticated and deeper argument than Paley's.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Jan, 2010 01:45 am
@xris,
xris;119009 wrote:
Is that part of the evolutionary plan?


This is one of the ideas behind 'evolutionary enlightenment'.

I had put a quote on the idea here from Wikipedia, but I deleted it because didn't like the references in it. I might do a separate thread on this idea.
0 Replies
 
 

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