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Death Experience of Mellen-Thomas Benedict

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 09:33 am
@salima,
salima;67338 wrote:
maybe it is because nobody is focusing on the conscious and the unconscious units-and i am still not clear on whether there is any difference between consciousness and awareness. i thought awareness was the basic element-and as soon as it manifests it becomes conscious of whatever it has manifested (or transcended itself into).

so let's say the unconscious is unaware of the conscious and each of these two parts are aware of different existences, one focusing on the outer world and one on the inner world, the rhizome where all the consciousness has access to its individual splinters. sometimes they spill over into each other's territory; ideally they would be working in unison. with our intellect we may be able to discover what both of them are doing. not to mention the part of the brain that controls the heartbeat and all the bodily functions...also, there is intelligence (another term, where does that one fit in the puzzle?) in every cell of the body-there is cellular memory, i suspect. wouldnt it be something if we knew everything each one of our cells knows?

(KJ-i know i am thinking like a cartoon explanation made for children now. with the background you have you can probably explain all my mistakes without even looking anything up.)

but on to the metaphysical part:
so let's say there isnt any such thing as a soul. does it matter? suppose we die and then our memory, our sense of i-ness, everything is gone. what is left is all the other people, animals, plants, minerals that still go on sharing the same intelligence unit. and eventually everything dies, and nothing will be left but the original awareness with nothing to be conscious of. does it matter?

i think the thing that made me change my way of thinking and made me feel at peace, and develop a much better moral character than i ever had, was the perception that all is one. that means the ego is only an illusion created by the apparent separation of bits of intelligence into separate vantage points. we are one, and whatever hurts you hurts me. whether or not there is anything that goes on after death doesnt really change anything for me. i can conceive of that being proved which is ok.
Your experiences dont obviously require certain answers,you dont find the need to explain why you are visited by the recent dead.I dont ask for these damned quandaries that life places upon me, these experiences plague me with their demands to find out why.If i did not have witness ide say i was bonkers.When you dream of a future event and you do not believe in fate, how do you resolve this conflict? only with a logic that can help you explain this to yourself.
It takes away a certain freedom from you, it denies you certain logic that others could call upon.It makes you rethink your views and beliefs.When i see examples of NDE i read them thinking is that what happened to my friends and family,did they pass by me at the time of their departure and without realising informed me of their death.It happens to many, this contact with the dead and dying, you can dismiss as an observer but if you experience them, its not so easy.
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 05:31 pm
@Alan McDougall,
"Do you think the light he saw was really God?? comment directed at all??"...alan

i think if he wants money he never saw any light at all...
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 07:49 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Some interesting posts there folks, and some good ponderings. Portions of the things touched on, I intend to answer towards in the thread on the 'biological foundation of consciousness' over in the sub-forum on Philosophy of Mind; here .

Of the few points which I really, really hope to make crystal clear (over time), one very, very essential and factual point, is that the English that we have is old. The words which we commonly use for things have been around a lot longer, and thus have certain restrictions which make it hard to apply them towards the knowledge that we have now.

Conscious is due to living brain. It is because of conscious that we can breath, have heart beat, and endocrine flows, etc. It is because of conscious that we can feel happiness, hunger, embarressment. With the aggregate of neural systems communicating with any number of others (and remember, it is said (to a fairly accurate degree, though probably a bit stretched, as far as we know at the moment that are likely more synaptic connections in the brain than atoms in the universe) conscious reaches a level of operation we term consciousness. I'll touch on finer points in the other over time...leaving it at this here.

While helping out with some research on NDEs and OBEs (and I'm sure I had given a link to that somewhere on this forum) I learned along with the main author (Keith Agustine) that NDEs really carry cultural factors with them.

The similarities are most evidently based on the similarity of brain. Most folks may not stop to think about it, but on the first level of inspection (just like that of fingerprints) we'll see that every single brain looks very, very much alike. On the second level of inspection, we will find that the structures are all, very, very much alike and in very much the exactly same location within the overall brain, with (in lesser and lesser degrees as we go towards various mental illnesses [schizophrenia being a good example]) very similar wiring and connections between systems.

We will find that the instinct for survival is the root player in all these systems, as well as in the very cells (although the whole organism seemingly get priority--which is what automated cell death in adolescence occurs [in cases when that doesn't happen, you end up with mental disorder too]. Due to these cases, we get, for example the tunnel of light in many cases (but not all). We get a rememberance of a feeling of lightness and ease, happiness and postitiveness for this reason of similar brain build as well. For this reason we also often get full memory play back...as though our whole lives flashed before our very eyes. Also, for that reason, we often find people met by those who experience NDE, in that experience who are actually still living at the time.

What we do not get, for example, are Japanese deities, except by those who are Japanese. We don't find Japanese buddhist temples [which are quite different in design and order from other non-Japanese temples] in the NDEs of non-Japanese either (and of course, they NEVER met 'Jesus' [no Christian Japanese reports yet might be the cause]). We don't find movie sets by those who are not in that industry, as well. . . and the list goes on.

No, I am fully convinced, from what I have studied on this subject, and how it relates to other areas, that the light that any of these people recall having experienced is simple light that is created by the brain--I mean, that has even happened to me while sleeping on a number of occassions to pull myself out of slow wave sleep in order to move a limb which has had the blood circulation cut way back due to sleeping position, or to re-cover my upper body which has gotten quite cold during the winter (Japanese houses are not central air, and inside is as cold as outside in the winter). These were not meetings with any divine beings.


OH I forgot. YES !! You are on a very good track there, salima bahin !! As far as the evidence I have accumulated on a number of areas of interest for humanity, the planet upon which we live is a great, big recycle machine (of sorts). In that sense, we are all one. For that reason also, and since the death and disassembly of each organism at death, and all the activity--mental and physical--that no longer remains in that very state of arrangement breaks down, each single individual is a perfection of beauty. The old, and somewhat rejected by society man with Elephantitasis who is left to little more than begging on a street corner is just as important, just a wonderful a being as that overweight CEO who has more money that he/or she does not even know where all of it is at any given time.

Life, in this view, is not something that anyone can give to strapping explosives on their back with a view to gain in any imagined afterlife...there is, basically (other than this recycle) no afterlife. The cosmic beauty of each moment that this arrangement of physcial molecules can experience and share with others is to be most prized. Along with love, we need the understanding, I reason. etc, etc.... (sorry, I make long posts, I know...)
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:16 am
@KaseiJin,
The remarks so far are no more than has been stated before,we know certain discrepancies occur with these nde's and regional differences have been noted.I think we all know the principles of the mind but as science is no where near understanding consciousness its not really relevant mentioning the mechanics of the mind.
Those who experience them are annoyed in the main that this simple reasoning is given for their life changing near death experience.Nothing like it in human observation, creates the same clarity of thought.Many have tried to imply its similarity with other experiences such as vivid dreaming but those who experienced both say there is no comparison.Nde,s are life changing ,we cant dismiss them so easily.We all have certain similar experience such as the light entering our unconscious mind as we emerge from deep sleep but we never express them as life changing or imagine its something more than what it is.If you ignore all human reports as imagination or as some function of the unconscious mind we will not study them to the degree that i think is necessary.We may in some way be able to enter another dimension without dragging this physical body with us,we may have in our brain a contact with an ethereal being not yet visible by science.Those who have experienced more than the majority are not aliens or always crazy but have seen what others can only scoff at.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 03:45 am
@salima,
salima;67500 wrote:
"Do you think the light he saw was really God?? comment directed at all??"...alan

i think if he wants money he never saw any light at all...


My exact point, I am sure he had an experience but much of his testimony is fabrication and god following all over creation does not ring true does it

The "light"? lied to him if you read through his account carefully?
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:09 am
@xris,
xris;67622 wrote:
I think we all know the principles of the mind but as science is no where near understanding consciousness its not really relevant mentioning the mechanics of the mind.


It appears (at least, but I could be wrong) that this had been directed towards my post above it. This will bring out a few questions; I'm sure.
From my experience, far too many people do not take the time to connect all the dots [not pointing to anyone here--just talking about cases I had seen reports on], and most of those evidently have not spent much quality time doing research in the neuroscience/psychology fields. I have found that even beyond those very few (population wise, as well as clinical death experienced cases [[/i]you see, there are many clinical death cases with all the exact circumstances wherein no such mental reactions occur[/i] ]) cases of NDEs, people in general lack a good working knowledge of the principles and facts of mind/brain.

And then the question, if I may (again, neither to cast any doubt nor negative aura on anyone, but simply to ask that our cards be honestly laid out on the table) what background study and data can you present, or demonstrate, xris, to support your claim that we 'are no where near understanding consciousness' so as to make explanations on what brain does, irrelevant when talking about brain events?

The reason for my having mentioned the matter of different experiences due to different lifetime experiences, is because, what is stored in memory, is what is used in memory playback--it is as factual a truth as one can get, and is by no means a mere callus tort due to any prior disbelief.

A 'life changing experience,' no matter what it may be, will be any event which causes a person to adopt a new 'course,' or 'outlook,' on life. That much need not be remarked on because, simply, it is what it is in the subjective experience (there is no need to place a value judgment on it in either direction). To make any attempt, on the other hand, to understand why such an experience can happen even in non-life threatening situations (such as simply when undergoing anethesia, where there is no near death element at all), or why it is that we'll have real time earth things like rivers, certain plants, buildings and clothing, in an otherwise supposed neither world, we'll have to first take a neutral stance, and investigate the several avenues of thought. This has been done on a very large scale, actually.

If all the people who had had NDEs had actually died, even those undergoing some quite routine surgery, trust me, we would never ever have had any such concept, much less term--near death experience. It is a fact that not a single one of these people had ① or has died in any way at all, so the first avenue to investigate, would only logically be the brain events that could possibly lead to such experience.

Also, regarding the strength of visual and emotional aspect, we get the very same thing in patients who have damage to a certain area of the medial temporal lobe--and these are not folks who have experienced NDEs; it's simply how the brain works. There is no scoffing, this is serious
investigation; trust me. KJ




① Relative to the point at which they had reported their story, not this very point in time of posting.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 12:13 pm
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;67657 wrote:
It appears (at least, but I could be wrong) that this had been directed towards my post above it. This will bring out a few questions; I'm sure.
From my experience, far too many people do not take the time to connect all the dots [not pointing to anyone here--just talking about cases I had seen reports on], and most of those evidently have not spent much quality time doing research in the neuroscience/psychology fields. I have found that even beyond those very few (population wise, as well as clinical death experienced cases [[/i]you see, there are many clinical death cases with all the exact circumstances wherein no such mental reactions occur[/i] ]) cases of NDEs, people in general lack a good working knowledge of the principles and facts of mind/brain.

And then the question, if I may (again, neither to cast any doubt nor negative aura on anyone, but simply to ask that our cards be honestly laid out on the table) what background study and data can you present, or demonstrate, xris, to support your claim that we 'are no where near understanding consciousness' so as to make explanations on what brain does, irrelevant when talking about brain events?

The reason for my having mentioned the matter of different experiences due to different lifetime experiences, is because, what is stored in memory, is what is used in memory playback--it is as factual a truth as one can get, and is by no means a mere callus tort due to any prior disbelief.

A 'life changing experience,' no matter what it may be, will be any event which causes a person to adopt a new 'course,' or 'outlook,' on life. That much need not be remarked on because, simply, it is what it is in the subjective experience (there is no need to place a value judgment on it in either direction). To make any attempt, on the other hand, to understand why such an experience can happen even in non-life threatening situations (such as simply when undergoing anethesia, where there is no near death element at all), or why it is that we'll have real time earth things like rivers, certain plants, buildings and clothing, in an otherwise supposed neither world, we'll have to first take a neutral stance, and investigate the several avenues of thought. This has been done on a very large scale, actually.

If all the people who had had NDEs had actually died, even those undergoing some quite routine surgery, trust me, we would never ever have had any such concept, much less term--near death experience. It is a fact that not a single one of these people had ① or has died in any way at all, so the first avenue to investigate, would only logically be the brain events that could possibly lead to such experience.

Also, regarding the strength of visual and emotional aspect, we get the very same thing in patients who have damage to a certain area of the medial temporal lobe--and these are not folks who have experienced NDEs; it's simply how the brain works. There is no scoffing, this is serious
investigation; trust me. KJ




① Relative to the point at which they had reported their story, not this very point in time of posting.
Is the jury out in your opinion KJ or is the subject dead? Im not attempting to make it more than it is but the effect is clear the cause is not so.Why mention the fact that no one has returned from death? it would not be death if someone had returned.
The cases you refer to that have similar effects are just that, similar but importantly not the same.
Why should a confirmed atheist have the same experience as a faith driven individual in this automatic phenomena? I cant understand when the brain is not under duress it reacts in such a manner,why because of certain chemical actions in the brain instigates these experiences?
I dont think science has explained them nor has it admitted knowing all the functions the mind has kept secret.Science can not describe or even start to have knowledge of consciousness let alone the workings of the sub conscious.If you require me to give proof of the lack of knowledge id be only too happy but that is a negative request.As for why certain individuals under similar circumstances dont have these experiences, maybe the chemical situation did not indicate imminent death.In my opinion the brain has been informed its last action is to assist in the the final journey just as it relieves prey victims of the pain of death by its killer.
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:08 pm
@xris,
I appreciate your considering the matter, xris. I can't seem to firmly make up my mind on just what to do here (on this thread, for now [go into detail here, or elsewhere...). Anyway, I can touch on a few things.

A lot more is known about brain and the brain than far too many people readily recognize (or, in some cases, wish to recognize). Consciousness itself is understood enough to be locked into brain (uncountable, collective noun). There is a lot more research to be done, of course, and there is a lot that comes up with each new bit learned, that leads to newer questions. Nevertheless, we have passed a certain point behind which, we have no need to press for more information on.

The reason I mentioned that these people had not died, was to point out that the living functioning brain had been there all along, very much unchanged--other than the level of conscious activity; that says a lot, actually ! It's not just the chemical actions, but the firing patterns and connectivity that really makes the difference, along with, especially individual, brain build.

If it were some unified universal, cosmic truth being experienced beyond the material brain, why would separate elements of cultural identity and personal history make any difference? Why would any immaterial world require manmade, material props--such as clothing and vehicles and buildings? The most reasonable proposition in answer to these thoughts, would rationally be, 'because the experiences are only inner realities of the individual's material brain.' Further research coincides with this, thus even more greatly verifying the conclusion that it is simply the result of brain operation.

To save space and a lot of time, I hope you will allow room for the consideration that it is very much fact that conscious is a continuum (which might take a fair amount of research to 'visualize') and focus requires 'attention screens' (so to speak) to be thrown up. Sensory input does not stop at all (as long as the pathways are not severed or damaged so as to prevent connection) but acceptance of the trace is controlled by higher up systems--which is why all sense of pain, time, selfness, and sound can be shut out. It is, after all, the brain that is working as that organ has come to work through the continuum of ganglion structures all through evolutionary time. That's the way it is, really.

I'll try to carry this over to that other thread.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 12:15 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;67847 wrote:
I appreciate your considering the matter, xris. I can't seem to firmly make up my mind on just what to do here (on this thread, for now [go into detail here, or elsewhere...). Anyway, I can touch on a few things.

A lot more is known about brain and the brain than far too many people readily recognize (or, in some cases, wish to recognize). Consciousness itself is understood enough to be locked into brain (uncountable, collective noun). There is a lot more research to be done, of course, and there is a lot that comes up with each new bit learned, that leads to newer questions. Nevertheless, we have passed a certain point behind which, we have no need to press for more information on.

The reason I mentioned that these people had not died, was to point out that the living functioning brain had been there all along, very much unchanged--other than the level of conscious activity; that says a lot, actually ! It's not just the chemical actions, but the firing patterns and connectivity that really makes the difference, along with, especially individual, brain build.

If it were some unified universal, cosmic truth being experienced beyond the material brain, why would separate elements of cultural identity and personal history make any difference? Why would any immaterial world require manmade, material props--such as clothing and vehicles and buildings? The most reasonable proposition in answer to these thoughts, would rationally be, 'because the experiences are only inner realities of the individual's material brain.' Further research coincides with this, thus even more greatly verifying the conclusion that it is simply the result of brain operation.

To save space and a lot of time, I hope you will allow room for the consideration that it is very much fact that conscious is a continuum (which might take a fair amount of research to 'visualize') and focus requires 'attention screens' (so to speak) to be thrown up. Sensory input does not stop at all (as long as the pathways are not severed or damaged so as to prevent connection) but acceptance of the trace is controlled by higher up systems--which is why all sense of pain, time, selfness, and sound can be shut out. It is, after all, the brain that is working as that organ has come to work through the continuum of ganglion structures all through evolutionary time. That's the way it is, really.

I'll try to carry this over to that other thread.


Two points; these are near death events no one claims actual complete sustained death.

The brain is not the totality of a persons awareness. Consciousness in some forms survive death
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 04:23 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;67897 wrote:

The brain is not the totality of a persons awareness. Consciousness in some forms survive death


Alan, you have surely bitten a whole bunch more than you'd even be able to put in your mouth--much less chew--here, have you not?

Do you honestly feel that you can demonstrate how the brain is not the totality of a person's awareness...or, otherwise, what exactly you mean?

If consciousness does not survive slow wave sleep, then how on earth can it survive death?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 04:31 am
@Alan McDougall,
Consciousness is not confined to any one place in the brain, it is more like a dynamic action.The brain can function on many levels without the conscious minds involvement.It appears to come into its own by certain criteria and acts as a controller rather than the machine.We have no idea how or why certain persons have these varied experiences they are distinctly different in their intensity and to lump them altogether as if it disproves them all is a very naive defence of a position that appears to be trying to disprove them, rather than understand them.
I have never heard anything of scientific value that can discount the "I" or the ego or what i call the soul.We even have scientists in desperation making up silly stories to put value into their findings.The best one is "beam me up scotty" how and if you destroyed and individual and reconstructed him or her in another place exactly as the original,the copy would believe he was the that person and carry on as normal..what a load of silly nonsense..
0 Replies
 
salima
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:52 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;67847 wrote:
I appreciate your considering the matter, xris. I can't seem to firmly make up my mind on just what to do here (on this thread, for now [go into detail here, or elsewhere...). Anyway, I can touch on a few things.

A lot more is known about brain and the brain than far too many people readily recognize (or, in some cases, wish to recognize). Consciousness itself is understood enough to be locked into brain (uncountable, collective noun). There is a lot more research to be done, of course, and there is a lot that comes up with each new bit learned, that leads to newer questions. Nevertheless, we have passed a certain point behind which, we have no need to press for more information on.

The reason I mentioned that these people had not died, was to point out that the living functioning brain had been there all along, very much unchanged--other than the level of conscious activity; that says a lot, actually ! It's not just the chemical actions, but the firing patterns and connectivity that really makes the difference, along with, especially individual, brain build.

If it were some unified universal, cosmic truth being experienced beyond the material brain, why would separate elements of cultural identity and personal history make any difference? Why would any immaterial world require manmade, material props--such as clothing and vehicles and buildings? The most reasonable proposition in answer to these thoughts, would rationally be, 'because the experiences are only inner realities of the individual's material brain.' Further research coincides with this, thus even more greatly verifying the conclusion that it is simply the result of brain operation.

To save space and a lot of time, I hope you will allow room for the consideration that it is very much fact that conscious is a continuum (which might take a fair amount of research to 'visualize') and focus requires 'attention screens' (so to speak) to be thrown up. Sensory input does not stop at all (as long as the pathways are not severed or damaged so as to prevent connection) but acceptance of the trace is controlled by higher up systems--which is why all sense of pain, time, selfness, and sound can be shut out. It is, after all, the brain that is working as that organ has come to work through the continuum of ganglion structures all through evolutionary time. That's the way it is, really.

I'll try to carry this over to that other thread.


i am not able to grasp the area of your quote that i made bold type. all sense of pain can be shut out...??

anyway, i wish it wasnt as technical as it is, but i am getting something out of what you are saying, and i am very glad to have someone with the type of knowledge you do participating in the discussion. and i might add in a very non-confrontational manner! i will definitely go back to that other thread to see what else is there...i think i might have unsubscribed myself.

---------- Post added at 09:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

oops-forgot to mention something. my personal experience was brought on while i was having a mental crisis but i was listening to music-i would say i must have reached some sort of meditational level, which i am thinking was samadhi-but it was spontaneous, and an experience very similar to anyone's nde.


now i can see why the temples and various religious figures would show up while the person was coming back, they add those to try and make sense out of what they are seeing. but i was and had been for some time in an atheist frame of mind-so there were none of those furnishings. but what i got out of it was the unity and the ok-ness of it all, the lack of evil-the nurturing and self-perpetuating continuation of it all.


so my question is, couldnt it be that the experience tunes us in to some higher state of existence where awareness is less separated by the various focal points which we perceive to be separate entities? if you dont want to separate the realm of existence into inner life and outer life, or if you want to say that the inner life will end at the same time the brain dies...i guess that is ok too, because none of my ethics or anything else really depend on that. but the unity is a factor that i feel i have experienced-and that was the life-changing factor for me. also, i was not in any near death condition, no life threatening situation at the time it occurred. any ideas on why it happened to me like that?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 11:28 am
@salima,
Near death experience - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm not inclined to refer to other sources but this needs to be read in full with all the respective links to realise the subject is not concluded as we have been led to believe....
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:09 pm
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;67939 wrote:
Alan, you have surely bitten a whole bunch more than you'd even be able to put in your mouth--much less chew--here, have you not?

Do you honestly feel that you can demonstrate how the brain is not the totality of a person's awareness...or, otherwise, what exactly you mean?

If consciousness does not survive slow wave sleep, then how on earth can it survive death?


Yes I do, I have seen my physical body from the outside, I have gone where you have not, for instance you reside in Japan of which I know absolutist nothing, so for me to speculate about it to you is ludicrous,for you to speculate about a place infinitely more mysterious and remote, is also lustrous.


Like Benedict I have had a "near death experience" obviously you have not If you had you simply would know the brain is only part of our being, we all have a soul that lives on after death
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 10:59 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I appreciate the feedback, there folks. Xris, it is kind of interesting how you have made three correct statements at the beginning of your #51 above, and then, in the next breath, made a very incorrect statement on a quite different matter--that of NDEs and similar states. Well, as for consciousness, I'll take that over to the other thread, and as of late this afternoon, or tonight. The brain stuff detail should go there, really.

Meree baheen, salima. If you'll allow me to answer that first part, and then take the rest, over time, on the other thread, I'd appreciate it.

Firstly, a simply fact (well, as close to fact as careful scientists will allow for such through application of scientific method). Each individual H. sapien's brain comes with a genetic 'hardwiring.' For that reason, there are modules which have certain specific jobs which genetical encoding and expression determine when the brain structure is being built. Now while there will be numerious genetic mishaps along the way (for example, if you notice a person with one ear larger than the other, that was a genetical mishap) not all are bad for the brain, or the being. One which is (and I cannot recall the name off the top of my head), is when the ensory input of touch is absent. Those extremely rare cases of people with this genetical disorder are very sad cases, indeed. They cannot feel a thing ! One case I especially know of was a young girl who was well educated and was fairly intellegent a person. She fully realized, mentally, her condition and the hazards, and strove to take care--but, alas, died by the time she was 28 years old. The reason the brain has receptors for sensory perception is to survive. . . it is as close to fact as we can come.


However, the brain also has 'mechanisms' to put up 'screens' (if you will) to shut out incoming sensory information (otherwise the brain would flood...because the ears are always hearing (even asleep) the eyes always seeing (even with the eyelids closed--just much less light) and so on.

So, when I had said, for example, "as long as the pathways are not severed or damaged so as to prevent connection," I had been pointing to ①the fact that although the brain can shut out (refuse to process, is closer imagery) that insistently incoming stream of sensory information (as in deep meditation, or deep sleep) the brain is still conscious (as opposed to consciousness), and ② the fact that when prefrontal cortical area structures command strong attention to a more singular stream of incoming sensory information, the other areas dealing with information from the other sensory sources will be inhibited (in other words, 'screens' would be put up so as to shut out that information. . . such never reaches consciousness (but is still conscious activity...nothing has died, you see) so as to focus on one or a few things only. This is what is most evidently happening in these cases.

At the top of the Wiki page we'll first notice one warning, namely "The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. (December 2007) " While the article appears well balanced enough, there are some 'makeshift' citations as well as some more valid ones (Wiki has had some problems with this which is why the Society for Neuroscience as taking up a campaign asking all members to check and correct all contributions towards the neurosciences there). A valid one, for example, #40, has nothing to do with NDE really, and is, in fact a well reported case of a patient who had started coming out of minimally conscious state (see my #35, p 4 of this thread), but goes to show that what we have is working brain. Citation #30, some popular news site had nothing (but it did have a tab for Bible Texts on it...for Christian prayer groups?). But one good citation (and I do not know if the author of that Wiki page had really used it) was #50. And I know, because I had helped work with Keith on that project some; here's that link. [/SIZE]

Alan, let's consider this as carefully and honestly (and pragmatically) as we can, then. Alan, have you ever somatically died? I mean have you been without heartbeat, blood circulation, air intake (ventilation), and glucose intake for a period of at least 180 minutes?
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 03:00 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
KaseiJin Alan, let's consider this as carefully and honestly (and pragmatically) as we can, then. Alan, have you ever somatically died? I mean have you been without heartbeat, blood circulation, air intake (ventilation), and glucose intake for a period of at least 180 minutes?
Why do you draw a line at 120 minutes and yes I have been in that death state(unlike you who wants to tell me all about it) Attempted suicide if you must know I almost cut off my right arm and near as hell bled to death. Flat lines etc

Man all this blah blah about glucose I saw what I saw it was beautiful real not an illusion or delusions as you suggest these are mixed up and meaningless I saw the future and the past,

I went to another country of which you are absolutely one hundred percent ignorant and you keep telling me i NEVER went there due to having some glucose in my brain.


MY daughters (wife away at the time) Had to watch the father convulse and hear the heart monitor go from beet beep beep beep, beep to be...............................10minutes.....................................................p............p

I have been without heart beat the heart can not beat without blood, I almost bled to flat death lined. If the brain has no blood it simply cant function, I went into an epileptic fit brought on by extreme shock died and was brought back to life some ten minutes later

This also happened to be as a boy of twelve, go and kill yourself , let them resuscitate you after 20 minutes and then your whole argument will fall flat

All this about neurons , when you are near death the neurons are not working you are thinking and experience another reality with ethereal senses

There is absolutely nothing special about me millions of people have this type of experience everywhere all over the earth and Benedict that is why I find his money making hard to except

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#print_no {display: none; } #print_yes {width: 7.5in; } Current Near-Death Experience Research & Discoveries
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Current Near-Death Experience Research & Discoveries
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posted on Saturday, May 26, 2007
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[CENTER] ALTERED STATES
SCIENTISTS ANALYZE THE NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE
By Lee Graves
The
University of Virginia Magazine
Summer 2007

Original Link

Rocky collected money for the Mafia. A typical bagman, he was immersed in the material world of fast cars, quick cash and getting ahead by butting heads.

One day, he was shot in the chest and left for dead on the street.

He survived, though, and lived to tell of an experience that changed his life.

"He described a blissful, typical near-death experience -- seeing the light, communicating with a deity and seeing deceased relatives," says Bruce Greyson, a U.Va.-trained psychiatrist who interviewed Rocky after the shooting.

"He came back with typical near-death aftereffects. He felt that cooperation and love were the important things, and that competition and material goods were irrelevant."

That change in attitude didn't sit well with Rocky's Mafia friends, but they let him leave the family circle. It was his girlfriend who screamed bloody murder when he changed careers and started helping delinquent children and victims of spousal abuse.

"She was just disgusted with him because, as she put it, he no longer cared for things of substance, meaning money and jewelry and fast cars. She couldn't believe what happened to this guy," Greyson says.

So it is with hundreds and hundreds of people, those who have had near-death experiences and those who have been close to them. For 30 years, they have been the subjects of research that has taken Greyson and other scholars in U.Va.'s Division of Perceptual Studies deeper into a field where the raw material of spirituality, the fundamentals of consciousness, the ethereal realm of the afterlife and the scrutiny of science intersect.

Over those three decades, Greyson, who directs the Division of Perceptual Studies, has witnessed an evolution in our knowledge about near-death experiences. "Back in the early 1980s, when we would present information about these experiences at medical conferences, after the conference was over doctors would come to us individually and say, 'I had one of these experiences. Let me tell you about it.'"

Several factors made them reluctant to speak publicly. The experiences are intensely private, and people had yet to learn how common they were. In addition, the field of study had yet to gain wide acceptance.

As knowledge has grown, reticence has waned. "Now they're more willing to say that during the conference in front of an audience," Greyson says.

About one person in 20 has reported having a near-death experience, according to one study. The International Association for Near-Death Studies estimates that 12 percent of people who have had a close brush with death will later report having a near-death experience. The elements of that phenomenon are so consistent that Greyson developed a systematic scale of 16 items to gauge the depth of the event (see below).

A classic example would begin with a person in an accident or medical emergency having a sense of physical death accompanied by an out-of-body experience -- feeling like he is floating, possibly seeing his own body and surroundings. The sensation is not alarming and generally is peaceful. Some senses, such as hearing, become heightened.

A period of transition, many times described as moving swiftly through a tunnel, follows. The individual enters a realm of indescribable radiance, where he is met by deceased relatives and friends. A central being of light, often interpreted as a deity, emanates profound joy and unconditional love. The individual then undergoes a life review, where the actions of a lifetime unfold in a vision. He is told or decides that it is not time to die and returns to his body, not always willingly.

The power of the experience often is life-altering. Fear of death vanishes. Love of life blossoms. Spirituality strengthens. Compassion and connectedness become central principles.

"[Experiencers] feel they're part of something greater than themselves. They feel that they're all part of this universal whatever you want to call it -- nature, the godhead," Greyson says.

Though the research is modern, the phenomenon is ancient. The afterlife has fascinated mankind since he was wrapped in the swaddling clothes of civilization. Egyptian lore and spiritual texts such as The Tibetan Book of the Dead abound with accounts and descriptions of the passage from life to death. In the Bible,
St. Paul describes a mystical experience "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know."

One ancient text in particular piqued the interest of Raymond Moody while he was a student at U.Va. Plato's Republic ends with the story of Er, a warrior who "dies" in battle only to be revived after 10 days. He describes, among other things, a towering band of otherworldly light that serves as a passageway for souls.

Moody, whose studies at U.Va. led to a Ph.D. in philosophy in 1969, initially found little practical connection between classical text and contemporary experience. In 1965, however, a colleague related details of his own near death. When Moody later taught at
EastCarolinaUniversity, a student who had been severely injured in an accident stopped him one day after class.

"I'll never forget it. He said, 'Dr. Moody, I wish we could talk about life after death in this philosophy class.'

"I said, 'Why do you want to talk about that?'

"He said, 'About a year ago, I was in an accident, and my doctors said I died. I had an experience that has totally changed my life, and I haven't had anybody to talk about it with,'" Moody relates.

The student's story not only paralleled that of Moody's
Charlottesville colleague, but also had echoes of Plato. "At that point, I realized there had to be more of them," he says. Moody began conducting interviews and in 1975, while doing his medical residency as a psychiatrist at U.Va., published Life After Life.

It proved a seminal work. Moody coined the term "near-death experience" and outlined aspects common to the phenomenon. The book generated a tidal wave of interest, and Moody was inundated with mail, far more than he could manage given the demands of his residency.

In 1975, Greyson was an assistant professor of psychiatry at
U.Va. Moody showed him a box overflowing with one week's worth of letters and asked him if he wanted to follow up. "Of course I couldn't put them down," Greyson says.

So began a life's work of methodical inquiry into an area little explored by Western science. Moody's book, coupled with the writings of on the death experience, sparked interest that now blazes among a host of individuals, groups and interests. There now is a scientific Journal of Near-Death Studies (Greyson is editor) and the International Association for Near-Death Studies. The phenomenon has been mainstreamed to the point that readers can now turn to reference books such as The Complete Idiot's Guide to Near-Death Experiences.

Popular acceptance, however, is no substitute for empirical analysis in the scientific community. Greyson is a skeptic; he believes only conclusions supported by data. "Science is my game. I can understand that there are philosophical or theological ways of approaching this, but that's not my interest," he explains. "My interest is in the scientific understanding of it."

The cumulative weight of personal stories certainly counts in this regard, but Greyson employs a number of different studies to test for veracity. To analyze whether accounts are embellished over time, Greyson asked 72 patients who had completed the 16-item scale in the 1980s to complete the scale again without referring to their original responses, then compared the results for variations. To gauge how a near-death experience affected one's ability to cope with stress, another researcher studied 18 participants of support groups sponsored by the International Association of Near-Death Studies, then set up a control group of 25 people from the same support groups who had not had a near-death experience.

Greyson's studies, combined with research by others in the field, have methodically addressed questions such as: Do people of different cultures report similar phenomena? Do people tend to embellish or elaborate on their experiences over time? Are reports recorded before Moody's influential 1975 book consistent with those afterward? Can't near-death experiences be attributed to other causes -- medication, mental illness, religious preconceptions, wish fulfillment, hallucinations?

And finally: How can the mind continue to operate -- record perceptions, senses and thoughts -- and be conscious if the brain is dysfunctional?

Researchers have concluded that people of different cultures report similar phenomena but interpret them differently (the being of light may be God or Christ to a Christian, Allah to a Muslim). Reports studied over two decades showed no embellishment, underscoring the reliability of experiencers' accounts. Reports recorded before Moody's book are consistent with those afterward, indicating that people did not alter their accounts to conform to his model.

The effects of medication, mental illness, wish fulfillment and other psychological models are significantly different from near-death experiences and there is no scientific evidence connecting them, according to Greyson.

The mind-brain question is particularly absorbing to Greyson and fellow faculty in the Division of Perceptual Studies. He, Edward F. Kelly and Emily Williams Kelly (Grad '86) co-authored Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century, published in December 2006.

Emily Kelly writes about F.W.H. Myers, a 19th-century psychologist whose work supports the view that the mind is not generated by the brain but is constrained by it. She and Greyson examine how near-death experiences and other phenomena contravene conventional wisdom that the brain has to be functioning properly for consciousness to exist.

Current models of mind-brain interaction need to be re-examined, Greyson argues. Even
Newton's laws of physics break down at the extremes. "I think it's the same with mind-brain," he says. "Our mind-brain identity model works fine for everyday walking and talking, but when you're looking at times when the brain is not functioning and the mind seems to function quite well, you get into that extreme area where we need to look at some other models."

Such inquiry has profound implications for consciousness and its relation to the physical body, but it lacks the immediacy or life-saving potential of research into cancer and heart disease. That kind of medical research has priority when it comes to funding, always a concern for scientists in a university setting.

The Division of Perceptual Studies receives virtually no state or federal money. Founded in 1968 by the late Ian Stevenson as a research unit of U.Va.'s Department of Psychiatric Medicine, it is housed in a modest former residence blocks away from the bustle and construction swirling around the U.Va. Health System. The late
Chester F. Carlson, inventor of xerography who late in life studied Buddhism, was the division's first and main benefactor, and other private bequests have fueled the research.Life After Life as a medical school resident at U.Va., Raymond A. Moody Jr., 62, lives in Anniston, Ala., with his wife, Cheryl, and family. He recently completed research for a new book tentatively titled Nonsense, Science and the Spirit: Thinking About the Afterlife.Ian Stevenson as director because he and others believed that scientific assumptions and theories about the nature of the mind, or consciousness, were incomplete.

Stevenson, who died in February, gained international fame for his research into what he referred to as the "survival of personality after death." He conducted extensive investigations into reincarnation, particularly of children who recalled previous lives. He recorded more than 2,500 cases, publishing his findings in a series of technical books, from Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation to Reincarnation and Biology: A Contribution to the Etiology of Birthmarks and Birth Defects. In 1999, the globe-trotting psychiatrist was the subject of a book by
Washington Post editor Tom Shroder, Old Souls: The Scientific Evidence for Past Lives, which brought Stevenson's work to a wider audience.

Building on Stevenson's research, U.Va. child psychiatrist Jim Tucker shares many of these case studies with the general public in a new book, Life Before Life: A Scientific Investigation of Children's Memories of Previous Lives.

Other researchers in the division have studied types of anomalous perception, such as telepathy, out-of-body experiences, deathbed visions and near-death experiences.

.............

EXCERPT FROM "Life After Life"
By Raymond A. Moody, Jr.

"A man is dying and, as he reaches the point of greatest physical distress, he hears himself pronounced dead by his doctor. He begins to hear an uncomfortable noise, a loud ringing or buzzing, and at the same time feels himself moving very rapidly through a long dark tunnel. After this, he suddenly finds himself outside of his own physical body, but still in the immediate physical environment, and he sees his own body from a distance, as though he is a spectator. He watches the resuscitation attempt from this unusual vantage point and is in a state of emotional upheaval.

"After a while, he collects himself and becomes accustomed to his odd condition. He notices that he still has a 'body,' but one of a very different nature and with very different powers from the physical body he has left behind. Soon other things begin to happen. Others come to meet and to help him. He glimpses the spirits of relatives and friends who have already died, and a loving, warm spirit of a kind he has never encountered before -- a Being of Light -- appears before him. This being asks him a question, nonverbally, to make him evaluate his life and helps him along by showing him a panoramic, instantaneous playback of the major events of his life. At some point he finds himself approaching some sort of barrier or border, apparently representing the limit between earthly life and the next life. Yet, he finds that he must go back to the earth, that the time for his death has not yet come. At this point he resists, for by now he is taken up with his experiences in the afterlife and does not want to return. He is overwhelmed by intense feelings of joy, love, and peace. Despite his attitude, though, he somehow reunites with his physical body and lives.

"Later he tries to tell others, but he has trouble doing so. In the first place, he can find no human words adequate to describe these unearthly episodes. He also finds that others scoff, so he stops telling other people. Still, the experience affects his life profoundly, especially his views about death and its relationship to life."

............

THE STAGES OF DYING

Elisabeth Kubler-Ross defined the live stages of dying. In her autobiography, "The Wheel of Life", she marks the four stages of life after death based on her interviews with more than 20,000 patients:

Phase 1: Leave the physical body.

No matter the cause of death -- cancer, suicide or car crash -- people are aware of the scene they just left. They hear deathbed discussions or witness doctors' efforts to save them. They assume an ethereal existence. In this phase, they experience a wholeness. For instance, if they were blind, they can now see.

Phase 2: Meet angels or guides.

In this phase, people report they leave the body behind and enter a state defined as "spirit and energy." They are able to go anywhere with the speed of thought. The angels or guides comfort them lovingly and introduce them to previously deceased relatives and friends. It's a time of "cheerful reunion." Ktibler-Ross believes this is the phase most comforting to those who die a sudden death. Unlike those who die from lingering illness, where family and patient have time to prepare, those who die suddenly are as confused as their families. In this phase they are able to figure out what has happened. For example, "I am positive those who died aboard TVA Flight 800 were with their families at the memorial service on the beach" that took place soon after the crash, she says.

Phase 3: Enter the tunnel.

Patients describe passing over some type of transitional structure -- a bridge, a mountain pass or a stream. There's a bright light at the end that radiates intense warmth, energy and unconditional love. People report feeling excitement, tranquility and the anticipation of going home. Some describe the light as God, Christ or Buddha, but all agree that seeing the light taught them there is only one explanation for the meaning of life, and that is love.

Phase 4: In the presence of a higher source.

Some call the presence God. Others report knowing every bit of knowledge, past present and future. The ethereal existence disappears and the entity becomes pure spiritual energy. In this state, people go through a life review, re-living every action, word and deed to see what they made of God's greatest gift: free will. They are asked, "What service have you rendered?" The goal is not to winnow the just from the unjust but to help souls understand the purpose of the lives they led. "It was the hardest question to answer," Kubler-Ross reports. "It demanded that people confront whether or not they made the highest choices in life. They found out whether or not they learned the lessons they were supposed to learn, the ultimate being unconditional love."

............

RELATED QUOTES

"I'm not asking you to believe anything. I'm simply telling you what I believe. And I have no idea what the next life will be like. Whatever I saw was only from the doorway, so to speak. But it was enough to convince me totally of two things from that moment on: One, that our consciousness does not cease with physical death; that it becomes, in fact, keener and more aware than ever. And secondly, that how we spend our time on earth, the kind of relationships we build, is vastly more important than we can know."

--- George G. Ritchie, M.D., summarizing the essence of his famous near-death experience, and encounter with Jesus. From the book, "Return From Tomorrow"

...

"'It's like climbing right inside a movie of your life,' says one Near-Deather. 'Every moment from every year of your life is played back in complete sensory detail. Total, total recall. And it all happens in an instant....' During this instantaneous and panoramic remembrance NDRers reexperience all the emotions, the joys and sorrows, that accompany all of the events in their life. More than that, they feel all of the emotions of the people with whom they have interacted as well. They feel the happiness of all the individuals to whom they've been kind. If they have committed a hurtful act, they become acutely aware of the pain their victim felt as a result of their thoughtlessness. And no event seems to be too trivial to be exempt....

"Whitton has uncovered evidence that thoughtless acts are not the only things that cause individuals remorse during the life review. Under hypnosis his subjects reported that failed dreams and aspirations -- things they had hoped to accomplish during their life but had not -- also caused them pangs of sadness."

--- From "The Holographic Universe", by Michael Talbot

...

"I have never interviewed anyone who had a near-death experience who told me that they came back to make more money or to spend more time at their jobs away from their families... Instead, they become convinced that they need to be more loving and kind. They react to their experience by living life to its fullest. They believe their lives have a purpose, even if that purpose is obscure to them. Invariably it involves concepts such as love of family or service to others. They seem to know that the love they create while living will be reflected and radiated back to them when they die."

--- Melvin Morse, M.D. From His Book, "Parting Visions"
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xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 03:56 am
@Alan McDougall,
KJ you are talking about the diferent functions of the brain and relating them to consciousness.There is no one place in the brain that can be pointed to and say thats where you are aware.Its like making the assumption the driver of a car is somewhere in the ignition.If you cant find it dont pretend you can.
There are many false trails in this search and scientists make false ones just as much as those who believe in an ethereal reason for them.
There is a discrepancy between what maybe considered as nde,s and what others may consider are.You fail to make it clear that the brain is a liquid entity and chemicals within the brain play a large part in its operation.You refuse to make the giant leap to believe we may have an unexplainable experience and merely try to drip feed these side shows of the brains workings as if that disproves the experience.
I approach it from a point that it is possible, you say its impossible.Try inventing a system that has an ethereal controller within a physical frame work that has to operate in this existance.You would need all the attributes of the brain ,you could not exist in any one place in that machine,you are there as a influence, to observe and experience.You cant find me in the machine im not there.Cut one part of my brain out i loose that ability to operate in that portion of the brain, then seeing it as observer the conscious mans disappearance appears to give the impression the "i" was there,he is there but not there, unable to function.
My theory is, contact between the two at sometime needs to be disconnected,death, the soul is tied by life and can not escape only by death does it become free.When death is imminent, the brain has certain chemical messages that instigate these images that relate to the real experience of death.It is a film show that introduces you to death, it can take many forms but it is usually based on your life experiences.
I have had to formulate these ideas by experiencing things beyond the real world of certainties and this is my answer.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 04:11 am
@xris,
xris;68229 wrote:
KJ you are talking about the diferent functions of the brain and relating them to consciousness.There is no one place in the brain that can be pointed to and say thats where you are aware.Its like making the assumption the driver of a car is somewhere in the ignition.If you cant find it dont pretend you can.
There are many false trails in this search and scientists make false ones just as much as those who believe in an ethereal reason for them.
There is a discrepancy between what maybe considered as nde,s and what others may consider are.You fail to make it clear that the brain is a liquid entity and chemicals within the brain play a large part in its operation.You refuse to make the giant leap to believe we may have an unexplainable experience and merely try to drip feed these side shows of the brains workings as if that disproves the experience.
I approach it from a point that it is possible, you say its impossible.Try inventing a system that has an ethereal controller within a physical frame work that has to operate in this existance.You would need all the attributes of the brain ,you could not exist in any one place in that machine,you are there as a influence, to observe and experience.You cant find me in the machine im not there.Cut one part of my brain out i loose that ability to operate in that portion of the brain, then seeing it as observer the conscious mans disappearance appears to give the impression the "i" was there,he is there but not there, unable to function.
My theory is, contact between the two at sometime needs to be disconnected,death, the soul is tied by life and can not escape only by death does it become free.When death is imminent, the brain has certain chemical messages that instigate these images that relate to the real experience of death.It is a film show that introduces you to death, it can take many forms but it is usually based on your life experiences.
I have had to formulate these ideas by experiencing things beyond the real world of certainties and this is my answer.


Nice post xris if we are just organized dust, how to we think and how do we know what we know??

The Jewish guards appointing by the SS in the death camps had mostly reached a position where they believed this life is all they had, we are nothing more than watery protoplasm and when we die we are gone forever

I saw a documentary where one of the Jewish guards was asked how could they throw their fellow Jews into the gas chambers and then burn them in the ovens (this was below the Nazi SS).

The answer was that they would have done "ANYTHING" to live just a minute longer, there was no soul no afterlife just gone forever

Even kill thier own mother to live for just one more day

Those that believed in the soul and afterlife had a much easier time accepting their fate because it was not the end of their being

Nothing to do with GOD now just belief in the continuation of life beyond death

Peace
0 Replies
 
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 04:47 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;68221 wrote:
Why do you draw a line at 120 minutes and yes I have been in that death state . . .


I think I had drawn the general line starting from 180 minutes. If a person has no heartbeat AND no blood being pumped by machine AND no air ventilation (that is no machine pumping oxygen into your body--which never happens anyway, if the blood is not being pumped . . . and we can drop the cell food...because basically, if your blood is not circulating [even if it's less blood volume], the cell food is gonna do extremely little good) , for a period of at least 180 minutes (that's at least 3 hours under those above conditions, please keep in mind) that person will most likely never be resuscitated. That is somatic death.

I recall your story (published on a different thread) and feel for you--as I know the circumstances and the tragaedy. My heart goes out to you on that.

It is true then, as you have shared with us, Alan, that you did not die. Your brain may have recieved some damage, but probably nothing so big as to notice (beyond normal brain build for Bipolar Disorder). What that then leads to, is not the conclusion that you have experienced death, but that you have never experienced death, just as not a single person living on the face of the earth at this moment has ever experienced death. It's a simple fact.

You had mentioned in your earlier post that you have seen your physical body from outside your body. I would like to ask if you would attempt an explanation of how a non-body can see; although it might also be best on that other thread.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 05:48 am
@KaseiJin,
KaseiJin;68233 wrote:
I think I had drawn the general line starting from 180 minutes. If a person has no heartbeat AND no blood being pumped by machine AND no air ventilation (that is no machine pumping oxygen into your body--which never happens anyway, if the blood is not being pumped . . . and we can drop the cell food...because basically, if your blood is not circulating [even if it's less blood volume], the cell food is gonna do extremely little good) , for a period of at least 180 minutes (that's at least 3 hours under those above conditions, please keep in mind) that person will most likely never be resuscitated. That is somatic death.

I recall your story (published on a different thread) and feel for you--as I know the circumstances and the tragaedy. My heart goes out to you on that.

It is true then, as you have shared with us, Alan, that you did not die. Your brain may have recieved some damage, but probably nothing so big as to notice (beyond normal brain build for Bipolar Disorder). What that then leads to, is not the conclusion that you have experienced death, but that you have never experienced death, just as not a single person living on the face of the earth at this moment has ever experienced death. It's a simple fact.

You had mentioned in your earlier post that you have seen your physical body from outside your body. I would like to ask if you would attempt an explanation of how a non-body can see; although it might also be best on that other thread.


I disagree in the absolute, I have been where "you never have been",and yet you keep telling me I have not. It has nothing to do with my bipolar

Do my posts indicate a dysfunctional damaged brain to you?

I know what I know and there are something I know that you do not know, can you bring yourself to at least accept that as a fact? Of course the reverse must apply

The negative non body is a very wrong term , a non body is a nothing non existence thing. I existed in a body but an ethereal body with much higher sensory abilities than our material one. Think of it as a quantum field if you like, this field can see right down into the infinitesimal world for example

Just becuase you cant rap your mind around it scientifically does not mean NDE do not happen or are not peeks into the glory of what lays beyond physical death

A Neutrino are said to be ably to go through light years of lead , why then is an ethereal soul body so silly to your??

I appreciate your contributions to this thread it makes the whole thing so much more interesting, thank you!

Peace
 

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