The Value of Freedom

Freedom is in the detail , it is an illusion your political freedom. The detail can be choice and democracy does not always favour the majority. My fathers fought for freedom so i think your advice on the value of freedom is just a bit over rated.

So in your opinion, not being able to get a less expensive water supplier is enough evidence that political freedom is an illusion? If you can't get everything you want the way you want it political freedom is worthless? Only a person living in such a free, egalitarian society has the convenience to take their freedom for granted on such a basis.

So in your opinion, not being able to get a less expensive water supplier is enough evidence that political freedom is an illusion? If you can't get everything you want the way you want it political freedom is worthless? Only a person living in such a free, egalitarian society has the convenience to take their freedom for granted on such a basis.

Philosophically, I describe myself as an 'aesthetic nihillist' which is to say that I believe in nothing except that which I choose to believe in, for pleasure or neccessity, knowing that my belief is unfounded nonetheless. My prime maxim is that the meaning of life is living, the only reason to live is to enjoy life, not to please a God, not to conform to a morality, and not to work towards the interest of the collective. I believe that individual freedom, not only in a political sense, though obviously that is important, is the conditio sine qua non for this kind of good life, or any other for that matter.

There is nothing on earth that has caused more misery, more poverty, or indeed led to the slaughter of more innocent human beings than the desire to centralize control in the hands of the state, whether justified by the 'divine right of kings' or the 'common good.'

We don't want freedom in itself. Freedom just means a lack of obstacles in the pursuit of our desires..

We desire to walk down the street feeling relatively safe. Therefore those who injure others are caged. So freedom depends upon bondage..

Your "freedom" to breath clean air is Jim's being prohibited from smoking.

Equality of opportunity is already an impossible dream, but one that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. But equality is a dream, as no too humans are born with the same capacities. Some are more beautiful. Some more intelligent. Some more courageous. And most important perhaps, some have the immune systems to survive childhood.

Equality can only mean an equality of rights. As in the abolition of social class (lords and ladies, knights and serfs.) But capitalism creates a different sort of social hierarchy, one with more mobility. And also one that continually revolutionizes the means of production. And also a runaway machine that just might screw up this ball of muck we call home.

Who doesnt? I sure want freedom. I don't like obstacles. Even absolute freedom does not eliminate "all" obstacles. It eliminates unjust obstacles.
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Equality of opportunity is an ideal, it's ambitious but theoretically possible.
Advantages are inevitable, but opportunities entitled. We are born with the "opportunity" to achieve ANY value. Some lack the means, but that can be fixed.(probably not anytime soon) Provided there are inequalities among individuals, the opportunity is there.

Except on private property, where freedom is applicable, exclusively, and unconditionally
Capitalism creates the social hierarchy based on worth, based on ability, as it should be.

We are restricted by the needs of others freedoms.

It seems right to me that no adult can have legitimate control over another peaceful adult. (Not including exceptional situations like a person with uncontrolled schizophrenia or something.)

This principle has been stated as "non-aggression against non-aggressors" and has other formulations as well.

Isn't this what we mean by "freedom" or "liberty?" - our right to control our own actions, not have someone else be in control of us?

Whenever someone has a proposal that, in effect, puts some adults in control over others, what I want to know is what the justification is supposed to be for doing that. It seems that my body should be under the control of my brain, and yours of your brain, and so on, up to the point were someone's brain tells them to try to control someone else. Is that is what is meant by our freedom being restricted by "the needs of others' freedoms"?

xris;105346 wrote:

We are restricted by the needs of others freedoms.

It seems right to me that no adult can have legitimate control over another peaceful adult. (Not including exceptional situations like a person with uncontrolled schizophrenia or something.)

This principle has been stated as "non-aggression against non-aggressors" and has other formulations as well.

Isn't this what we mean by "freedom" or "liberty?" - our right to control our own actions, not have someone else be in control of us?

Whenever someone has a proposal that, in effect, puts some adults in control over others, what I want to know is what the justification is supposed to be for doing that. It seems that my body should be under the control of my brain, and yours of your brain, and so on, up to the point were someone's brain tells them to try to control someone else. Is that is what is meant by our freedom being restricted by "the needs of others' freedoms"?

You make good points. Still, the real world is quite a compromise. Just think of traffic lights, stop signs. Freedom in the political sense is always accompanied by a certain amount of bondage. Taxation is a claim on your wealth backed by the threat of prison. Electromagnetic waves from other peoples technology pass through you every moment. The air you breath is polluted by factories. The management of space is seemingly impossible without certain curbs on freedom. A person cannot carry a gun in many places. People are forced by the government to evacuate sometimes. I believe property is seized sometimes in the building of highways or airports. It's tricky. Polygamy is generally illegal. Age of consent laws, drug laws. All of these are impingement on freedom that the majority approves of. Also the definition of adult is a legal concept. We could have made it 16 or 25. It's an imposition on the young to deny them adult status. Perhaps this is justified. I'm not taking sides but mentioning the difficulties of practical freedom.

No one has yet rigorously defined "freedom" here. I will take it as a primitive term, and note that there are three basic kinds.

There is Freedom of Thought (Systemic freedom.) We can think as we please and no power restricts this - although attempts are made at brainwashing up via the mass media.

There is Freedom of Action (Extrinsic freedom.) We are (relatively) free to travel and to move the limbs of our body; free to move about ...within limits.

There is Freedom of Conscience (Intrinsic freedom.) To follow one's conscience, and if necessary to be a Conscientious Objector, is the highest freedom of all. When we see evil we ought to conscientiously object to it. That is what Ethics teaches me.

As you know, I believe Politics is Applied Ethics. [Political Science is (ideally) the same field as Social Ethics ...when it concerns institutions, organizations, and associations - their structure and meaning.

As Spinoz may have said: We are determined to be free !

Freedom always means 'freedom from' not 'freedom to,'

In my opinion equality is impossible and freedom is an illusion. Freedom is only defined when it appears to be threatened but in fact it is never truly permitted.

Funny. I was free to eat oatmeal instead of Froot Loups this morning. But, like an idiot, I chose to eat Froot Loups. You mean I am mistaken, and that I was forced to eat Froot Loups?
"Freedom" has often been defined when it was not threatened, nor even appeared to be threatened. For instance, John Stuart Mill defined "freedom" in his great essay, "On Liberty".

If you want to reduce it to the question of the choice of breakfast then be my guest. You are referring to free will not the ability to exert the rights of a citizen.