Encounter With a Nice Man

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;67778 wrote:

why fight over politics in the creative writing forum?

Have you read the script?

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@Caroline,

Caroline;67779 wrote:

Again Bo, if you'd dont yur research you'd know that getting Africans to stop having sex means changing huge cultural practices, that is how they survive, their children work the land, the more children the more money, that is how they survive. So it's never going to happen as easily as that, y'know.

Africans, like all people, are rational moral agents with free will. For every action they will, they are able to have willed otherwise. I don't care about the culture. I don't care about the conditions. As free moral agents, they are free to abstain from having sex, especially sex with aids infested hookers.

3 Replies

@Bonaventurian,

Bonaventurian;67784 wrote:

Africans, like all people, are rational moral agents with free will. For every action they will, they are able to have willed otherwise. I don't care about the culture. I don't care about the conditions. As free moral agents, they are free to abstain from having sex, especially sex with aids infested hookers.

I wish i was free to really say what i would like to, to you but then what purpose would it serve.

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@Bonaventurian,

Bonaventurian;67739 wrote:

. They simply don't take into account the relationship between God and creatures.

Expalin this relationship, what do you mean?

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@Bonaventurian,

Bo, for future reference, in creative writing, you need to work on you ability to show rather than tell. Honestly, I was bored to tears, reading it, and only continued on to see what sort of insane conclusion you came to. The short story could have been used to show the emotions of an old lady wondering how different her life could have been, but instead it was a banal piece of work that carried on until the literary train wreck at the end.

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@Bonaventurian,

Bonaventurian;67784 wrote:

Africans, like all people, are rational moral agents with free will. For every action they will, they are able to have willed otherwise. I don't care about the culture. I don't care about the conditions.

So how would you get them to change their culture? And im not talking about the "...infested hookers". Im talking about families who live and work on the land and have deep cultural roots.

I think we are breaking forum rules. Either the thread moves or im out.

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@Bonaventurian,

Bonaventurian;67784 wrote:

Africans, like all people, are rational moral agents with free will. For every action they will, they are able to have willed otherwise. I don't care about the culture. I don't care about the conditions. As free moral agents, they are free to abstain from having sex, especially sex with aids infested hookers.

I find you total lack of understanding of human nature and culture to be surprisingly funny. Just because you grew up reading books written by mostly white European males, does not mean everyone else in the world grew up reading those books by white European males. The idea of "free moral agents" would be pretty much meaningless to the majority of the population of Africa.

1 Reply

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus;67792 wrote:

Just because you grew up reading books written by mostly white European males, does not mean everyone else in the world grew up reading those books by white European males.

Are you certain he reads books?

1 Reply

@Dave Allen,

Xris and Caroline: Yes I read it, its a story, in the creative writing section. He could have written a baby eating article, its still a story, and if it were posted in the creative writing section I don't see why there should be debate over its content. Shouldn't it be enough to be warned about the author's character and call it good? This is reminiscent in my mind of debates about burning Catcher in The Rye. Not that the above story is comparable in quality.

1 Reply

@Bonaventurian,

The message you ended on was far too blatant.

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@Bonaventurian,

I agree with you Sundance. Overall, I felt the story was too forced, and lacked any sense of life. I do think that with major editing, and an injection of emotion and humility, it could be a decent piece of flash fiction.

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@Bonaventurian,

Bonaventurian;67739 wrote:

Caroline. They simply don't take into account the relationship between God and creatures.

In all due respect, Bo, no one knows that. I understand your passion. The fact of the matter most are innocents who are having abortions and truly know no better. They were born in this reality. They know no other. To instill guilt is not the answer. I don't think you or I or any other man can know the real repercussions that occur in the mind of a woman who has had an abortion. This has been going on now for, what, 36 years now. Yes, I think abortions should be abolished, but instilling guilt is not the way to go about it. IMO. Smile

Your friend,
William

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@xris,

Bo this has the seeds of a good story if fleshed out. I understand that there is a moral/political message in here, and that's fine, but beating the reader over the head with it only serves to alienate. Helping the reader understand the guilt that the woman is feeling from her perspective might help quite a bit to soften the blow and if it is your intent to persuade, a good dose of empathy with the old lady goes a long way into making people take another look at their own opinions.

The style is off putting it reads more like stage directions than a narrative, almost as if you were writing a screen play without the dialogue. A trick to make the lady more of a person and less of a caricature in such a short space might be to introduce some dialogue with here speaking to herself and then reacting to her inner dialogue. Third person omnipotent is very hard to write convincingly. Maybe try a limited third person where the story is told from the woman's perspective.

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@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;67805 wrote:

Xris and Caroline: Yes I read it, its a story, in the creative writing section. He could have written a baby eating article, its still a story, and if it were posted in the creative writing section I don't see why there should be debate over its content. Shouldn't it be enough to be warned about the author's character and call it good? This is reminiscent in my mind of debates about burning Catcher in The Rye. Not that the above story is comparable in quality.

Just because it's a story in the creative writing section doesn't mean it isn't a message in disguise, of course im aware of the author's character but if i let it go unchallenged which i will eventually, means that exremists will just come into this forum, post their extreme views and go unchallenged is not the way i operate, the thread needed to be moved, not me criticised for responding to what it is oviously an anti abortion message because it's in the creative writing section, it should've benn moved. Do you think h e's really interested in what you got to say about his writing skills or in gettining his extreme views across, obviously the latter because he's responding to me and not his writing critics.

---------- Post added at 02:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:54 AM ----------

William;67856 wrote:

In all due respect, Bo, no one knows that. I understand your passion. The fact of the matter most are innocents who are having abortions and truly know no better. They were born in this reality. They know no other. Your friend,
William

You want to explain? You know better then?

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@Bonaventurian,

Caroline:
I agree that its an inflammatory message.
1) Fighting with trolls is what they want, and the fight is what brings them in droves to a forum. We have very conscientious mods who seem to be good at weeding out trolls.
2) Maybe its just my passion for free speech and art in all its forms, even the atrocious ones that makes me feel that expression in this section of the forum should not be subject to topical criticism.
3)How in the world is any position on the abortion issue not extreme? There is no moderation in an issue like this one is either for or against, it is a naturally polemic topic. Saying Bo is an extremist for anti-abortion views is a pot and kettle conversation.
4) Why should it be moved? There is no such thing as pro-abortion fiction? Oh mercy me I have never ever read a story with an agenda before.
5) You are most likely right that he isn't too interested in actual writing critique, but then again he may be. However I will continue giving writing critique to those who ask for it out of my respect for the craft and those who are trying to do something with it. There is a real story in there if he works at it, a story that has the potential to touch the most pro of the pro-abortion people. An old lady feeling regret over a choice in her youth is universally touching. An old lady hallucination about the could have been is universally intriguing. Change the topic from the kid she aborted to the kid she accidentally "killed" by smoking crack while pregnant and "awe how sad, what a touching story and what a testimony for not smoking crack while pregnant". Just because you don't agree with the political message doesn't mean it wouldn't be a touching story about the inner demons this old lady is facing.

1 Reply

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;67910 wrote:

Caroline:
I agree that its an inflammatory message.
1) Fighting with trolls is what they want, and the fight is what brings them in droves to a forum. We have very conscientious mods who seem to be good at weeding out trolls.

I agree, some of us (not to name names), are more than willing to investigate whether a user is a troll or not.

GoshisDead wrote:

2) Maybe its just my passion for free speech and art in all its forms, even the atrocious ones that makes me feel that expression in this section of the forum should not be subject to topical criticism.

I agree that this section should not be subject to criticism of subject matter within reason. Obviously, blatant disregard to the forum rules will be subject to deletion (e.g. no discrimination based on race, sex, sexual orientation).

GoshisDead wrote:

3)How in the world is any position on the abortion issue not extreme? There is no moderation in an issue like this one is either for or against, it is a naturally polemic topic. Saying Bo is an extremist for anti-abortion views is a pot and kettle conversation.

I agree. He has a valid position, although I could not disagree with his reasoning more. Even if I was pro-life, I would not agree with his rationalizations.

GoshisDead wrote:

4) Why should it be moved? There is no such thing as pro-abortion fiction? Oh mercy me I have never ever read a story with an agenda before.

It should stay here because it is a piece of fiction, even if, a poor piece of fiction that is obviously a rough sketch for a potentially good piece of pro-life fiction. I know I could write a story with the same premise and it could be half way decent look into the life of the woman who once performed a coat-hanger abortion in the 1950s.

GoshisDead wrote:

5) You are most likely right that he isn't too interested in actual writing critique, but then again he may be. However I will continue giving writing critique to those who ask for it out of my respect for the craft and those who are trying to do something with it. There is a real story in there if he works at it, a story that has the potential to touch the most pro of the pro-abortion people. An old lady feeling regret over a choice in her youth is universally touching. An old lady hallucination about the could have been is universally intriguing. Change the topic from the kid she aborted to the kid she accidentally "killed" by smoking crack while pregnant and "awe how sad, what a touching story and what a testimony for not smoking crack while pregnant". Just because you don't agree with the political message doesn't mean it wouldn't be a touching story about the inner demons this old lady is facing.

I am with Gosh on this one. Although I was rather harsh with some off my critique, I was being honest. I think I am going to write up some rules for the Creative Writing and kind of take over the forum as its watch dog. I I will probably go through the subforum, and clear out the trash that does not belong. I think we can help each other become better creative writers in this area by allowing for a way to offer improvements and suggestions. This will require people that respond to pieces of creative writing constructively, rather than critically against its subject matter. That is for the other forums, but this one should be specifically for sharing creative writing, and also receiving constructive criticism that can be used to improve the work.

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@Bonaventurian,

Ok, apologies, you're quite right, i shouldnt have commented unless it was within forum rules so i apologise. At first i did think it was inappropriate for me to make the comments but given the previous threads, i saw it as another way to express views that i have been challenging. But it was wrong to do it in this thread i wont do it again im sorry.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

So Trojan horses are acceptable? i don't think so.It never had the intention of being a work of creative writing.Whose sin was the greatest.Don't be sorry Caroline you had every right in criticizing the content, the subject, rather than its written value.We both fell for his trap ,you like me probably did not notice the threads location as it did not appear as anything like a work of literate merit, just bloody propaganda.Its a technical error not demonic sin.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;67961 wrote:

So Trojan horses are acceptable? i don't think so.It never had the intention of being a work of creative writing.Whose sin was the greatest.Don't be sorry Caroline you had every right in criticizing the content, the subject, rather than its written value.We both fell for his trap ,you like me probably did not notice the threads location as it did not appear as anything like a work of literate merit, just bloody propaganda.Its a technical error not demonic sin.

If fiction does not have a message it can never be good fiction. Good fiction relies on its Trojan horse/virus abilities. If one does not identify with it in the positive or the negative it has not done its job. The message portrayed is irrelevant to this fact. He could be writing pro-baby-molestation fiction and it would have been the same as a person writing a coming of age dark comedy about overcoming an abusive past. The very fact that you have so vehemently attacked the topic and the way the topic is formed is a confirmation of his efficacy as a fiction writer, in the realm of simply getting his message across.

A better story would have been more subtle and character driven. It would have couched his message rhetorically in the character's action and reaction to herself etc... But it seems he got his message across effectively.

So you fell for his "trap" tsk tsk, and there is no need for apologies for your opinions and deeply held beliefs. My intent here was not to defend his position, it was to defend the medium in which it was presented.

1 Reply

@Bonaventurian,

What trap, i could see it was in the creative writing section and knew I shouldn't have commented but i did and i apologised i made a mistake.

0 Replies

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