Terminal Illness

@Aedes,

Aedes;72532 wrote:

So you'd suggest that we abolish the health care system, so that not only do we have poor prevention but people die of the illnesses that they get as a consequence?

And yet when I just asked you you declined to offer ANY suggestions as to what this might be or how we might get there. And I believe this is because you don't know what you mean when you say things like this.

I would spend more money on high quality food in hospitals.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;72622 wrote:

I would spend more money on high quality food in hospitals.

I'm sure you mean that as a joke. The average length of stay is 2 to 8 days, depending on the underlying problem, so we're not going to solve many problems except for patients' gustatory satisfaction.

I've got plenty of ideas --

How about banning smoking?

How about more funding for daily physical fitness activities in school and for after school sports?

How about financial incentives for healthy foods (differential sales taxes for healthy versus non-healthy foods)?

How about better insurance reimbursement for patient counseling (including nutritionist evaluations)?

How about public funding for safe and fun playgrounds, pools, basketball courts, tracks, etc?

How about special preventative attention and referrals to high risk children, such as those with obese parents and siblings, and those who are overweight as toddlers?

How about more research funding for dietary modification interventions, for outcome studies, and to learn what the best dietary advice is?

I mean there are SO many things we can do at the level of public health, public works, and education. Complaining about doctors makes no sense -- we need to complain about society, because in a way the problems in our medical system are a symptom of our societal problems at large.

2 Replies

@Aedes,

Aedes;72898 wrote:

I'm sure you mean that as a joke. The average length of stay is 2 to 8 days, depending on the underlying problem, so we're not going to solve many problems except for patients' gustatory satisfaction.

I've got plenty of ideas --

How about banning smoking?

How about more funding for daily physical fitness activities in school and for after school sports?

How about financial incentives for healthy foods (differential sales taxes for healthy versus non-healthy foods)?

How about better insurance reimbursement for patient counseling (including nutritionist evaluations)?

How about public funding for safe and fun playgrounds, pools, basketball courts, tracks, etc?

How about special preventative attention and referrals to high risk children, such as those with obese parents and siblings, and those who are overweight as toddlers?

How about more research funding for dietary modification interventions, for outcome studies, and to learn what the best dietary advice is?

I mean there are SO many things we can do at the level of public health, public works, and education. Complaining about doctors makes no sense -- we need to complain about society, because in a way the problems in our medical system are a symptom of our societal problems at large.

I think it is a mindset, and it will take a very long time to change. But am emphasis on good food and exercise is a good direction from my point of view.

Rich

0 Replies

@Aedes,

Aedes;72425 wrote:

Belief that one has access to the absolute is both delusional and dangerous.

What absolute are you talking about?

Rado

---------- Post added at 01:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

Zetherin;72494 wrote:

As far as I know, your cells aren't conscious. Your cells are alive. There is no "higher consciousness" or "lower consciousness" - something alive is either conscious or not conscious.
We wouldn't call an amoeba conscious.

I disagree. There are different levels, degrees and kinds of consciousness. Consciousness is a basic property with reality, and takes many different forms. Anything that can sense is conscious at some level. The amoeba must be able to sense in order to be able to discern food from non-food.

If amoeba aren't conscious, and humans are, what level of life represent the borderline between being conscious and not, and what do you base this conslusion on?

Zetherin;72494 wrote:

What things known are absolute, and what things known are relative? Please be descriptive and provide some examples.

Define "known". Some things are known by some, and not by others (this is the basis of all disagrement).

Rado

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:16 PM ----------

William;72428 wrote:

This little scenario is exactly what we are discussing here. Prevention vs. cure. We know how to keep people from getting ill. It's all about costs. We have to "make" money, to hell with everything else.
William

Same old story. If only people would realize that if they took the chance and did that which is logical to do, everyone would become wealthier in the long run.

Rado

0 Replies

@Aedes,

Aedes;72898 wrote:

I'm sure you mean that as a joke. The average length of stay is 2 to 8 days, depending on the underlying problem, so we're not going to solve many problems except for patients' gustatory satisfaction.

I've got plenty of ideas --

How about banning smoking? (You can't ban addiction; people must be "weaned" off.)

How about more funding for daily physical fitness activities in school and for after school sports?

How about financial incentives for healthy foods (differential sales taxes for healthy versus non-healthy foods)?

How about better insurance reimbursement for patient counseling (including nutritionist evaluations)?

How about public funding for safe and fun playgrounds, pools, basketball courts, tracks, etc?

How about special preventative attention and referrals to high risk children, such as those with obese parents and siblings, and those who are overweight as toddlers? (solving this problem is what the voodoo science of genetic manipulation is trying to accomplish.)

How about more research funding for dietary modification interventions, for outcome studies, and to learn what the best dietary advice is?

I mean there are SO many things we can do at the level of public health, public works, and education. Complaining about doctors makes no sense -- we need to complain about society, because in a way the problems in our medical system are a symptom of our societal problems at large.

I think we are narrowing the gap in our discussion. Paul, you have hit on some major issues of which I totally agree. The reason I have highlighted those words of "funding" is a major issue. There is governmental funding and there is private funding. Society controls both. When I speak of society, it is that society that makes the rules regarding where it spends it's money. We got into this shape because of how that "corrupt" society thinks. These problems didn't happen over night and are not going to be solved with a "quick fix". It will take a collaborative effort of you, Rich and Rado and me and the like reaching a consensus and hoping we can spread this logic and reasoning like wild fire. Call it a "consortium of like minds becoming one and developing strength in numbers as we go. Let's not talk of complaining that arrises from our different perspectives, but latch on to the similarities of those perspectives and not delve too much in casting asperesions. This I think is the key as we concentrate on the positives of all view points. Collaborative effort will work miracles. IMO.:a-ok:

William

0 Replies

@rhinogrey,

Funding is key because it 1) facilitates and 2) incentivizes.

I don't think the average patron of Krispy Kreme really cares if they use trans fats, for instance, even if they intellectually know it's bad for them.

So what will get Krispy Kreme and other food scientists to come up with an alternative even though the customers keep coming? It's financial incentive.

An inordinate amount of money is spent on preventable illness. SOME of these fall within the domain of medical practice to prevent, after all we're giving vaccines and ordering mammograms, etc.

But we can't EVER force a patient to do something (unless they've been committed) and we can't change culture. Rich complains about cultural problems (I agree with him here), but he places the blame for these problems on medicine (which is incongruous).

We need a national priority to deal with our major risks for disease, which we could all list right now if we wanted, and that means investing right now in order that medical costs for the sick come down as a result.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Hi,

I believe that learning is experiential, and the way people change is by experiencing something else. In this case, I believe that people should be encouraged to exercise more and eat high quality food (not chemicals or pills) for their nourishment. You are what you eat. Also, to set time aside for relaxation. In today's culture we work the dickens off, which is very unhealthy, to pay for our health bills (which are now approaching 20% of GNP), because we are working our dickens off. Time to change direction.

I do not believe creating another profit center via government spending is the solution. I believe profit is the source of the current problem. Relying on other people to take care of our own bodies. I do not think this is reasonable. I think the medical profession in its entirety is a huge profit center (consider its portion of GNP), and putting more money into it will merely exasperate the problem.

I think people in general should spend more time exercising and eating well, and less time working in front of a computer, in order to make money, to pay for medical bills, which are caused by sitting in front of a computer. Smile

Rich

2 Replies

@richrf,

richrf;73059 wrote:

Hi,
I believe that learning is experiential, and the way people change is by experiencing something else. In this case, I believe that people should be encouraged to exercise more and eat high quality food (not chemicals or pills) for their nourishment. You are what you eat.
Rich

I also believed that for several years where I lived on macrobiotic food, until "the higher forces at work" in some rather tricky ways demonstrated for me that when it comes to health it is much more important what you think - as well as what you think think about what you eat. And after I began to understand this there were a lot of things that had puzzled me for many years that suddenly fell into place and made sense.

Read the book "The Holographic Universe" by Michael Talbot, it's an incredible book with lots of scientific evidence that supports the idea that
our physical condition is controlled by our minds. An example:

"Dr. Bennet Braun of the International Society for the Study of Multiple Personality, in Chicago, has documented a case in which all of a patient's subpersonalities were allergic to orange juice, except one. If the man drank orange juice when one of his allergic personalities was in control, he would break out in a terrible rash. But if he switched to his nonallergic personality, the rash would instantly start to fade and he could drink orange juice freely.

Allergies are not the only thing multiples can switch on and off. If there was any doubt as to the control of the unconscious mind has over drug effects, it is banished by the pharmacological wizardry of the multiple. By changing personalities, a multiple who is drunk can instantly become sober. Different personalities also respond differently to different drugs.

Braun records a case in which 5 milligrams of diazepam, a tranquilizer, sedated one personality, while 100 milligrams had little or no effect on another.

Often one or several of a multiple's personalities are children, and if an adult personality is given a drug and then a child's personality take over, the adult dosage may be too much for the child and result in an overdose. It is also difficult to anesthetize some multiples, and there are accounts of multiples waking up on the operating table after one of their "unanesthetizable" subpersonalities has taken over.

Other conditions that can vary from personality to personality include scars, burn marks, cysts, and left- and right-handedness. Visual acuity can differ, and some multiples have to carry two or three different pairs of eyeglasses to accommodate their alternating personalities. One personality can be color-blind and another not, and even eye color can change.

There are cases of women who have two or three menstrual periods each month because each of their subpersonalities has its own cycle.
Speech pathologist Christy Ludlow has found that the voice pattern for each of a multiple's personalities is different, a feat that requires such a deep physiological change that even the most accomplished actor cannot alter his voice enough to disguise his voice pattern.

One multiple, admitted to a hospital for diabetes, baffled her doctors by showing no symptoms when one of her nondiabetic personalities was in control.

There are accounts of epilepsy coming and going with changes in personality, and psychologist Robert A. Phillips, Jr. reports that even tumors can appear and disappear (although he does not specify what kind of tumors).

Multiples also tend to heal faster than normal individuals. For example, there are several cases on record of third-degree burns healing with extraordinary rapidity. Most eerie of all, at least one researcher, Dr. Cornelia Wilbur, the therapist whose pioneering treatment of Sybil Dorsett was portrayed in the book Sybil - is convinced that multiples don't age as fast as other people.

At a recent symposium on the multiple personality syndrome, a multiple named Cassandra provided a possible answer. Cassandra attributes her own rapid healing ability both to the visualization techniques she practices and to something she calls "parallel processing". As she explained, even when her alternate personalities are not in control of her body, they are still aware. This enables her to "think" on a multitude of different channels at once, to do things like work on several different term papers simultaneously, and even "sleep" while other personalities prepare her dinner and clean her house.

Hence, whereas normal people only do healing imagery exercises two or three times a day, Cassandra does them around the clock. She even has a subpersonality named Celese who possesses a thorough knowledge of anatomy and physiology, and whose sole function is to spend twenty-four hours a day meditating and imaging the body's well-being. According to Cassandra, it is this full-time attention to her health that gives her an edge over normal people. Other multiples have made similar claims."

(Michael Talbot: The Holographic Universe)

Rado

1 Reply

@rado,

rado;73069 wrote:

I also believed that for several years where I lived on macrobiotic food, until "the higher forces at work" in some rather tricky ways demonstrated for me that when it comes to health it is much more important what you think - as well as what you think think about what you eat.

Rado

Hi,

In my experiences one is a manifestation of the other. One can have a healthy mind my eating healthy food and vice-versa.

Also, in my experiences, it is easier for people to create an overall well-being by eating healthier food and exercising, getting sun, etc. But each person is different, and some may find other practices work best for them. The key is to look in the mirror and ask yourself if you look healthy and feel yourself and ask yourself if you feel healthy.

From an external perspective, many of the people who promote solely a "mind" approach (I believe all approaches should be looked at), do not seem healthy to me.

Yes, I read Talbot's book many years ago. I enjoyed it and would recommend to others who are exploring.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;73059 wrote:

I believe profit is the source of the current problem. Relying on other people to take care of our own bodies. I do not think this is reasonable. I think the medical profession in its entirety is a huge profit center (consider its portion of GNP), and putting more money into it will merely exasperate the problem.

I sure wish I saw some of that profit. It's not profitable. Most hospitals are in the red, and a ton of money is wasted on administrative costs.

If you think that the reason people smoke, the reason people are fat, the reason people have diabetes, and the reason people catch herpes is because they rely on profiteers who make them dependent, then you need to be a better student of human behavior.

People allow bad things to happen to themselves because they develop bad habits and never train themselves out of them. Our cultural problems, like the fact that crappy food is more affordable than good food, are not foisted upon the general populace by the medical community -- and you know it.

0 Replies

@rhinogrey,

Rado,thanks. If you would please note a post of Salima's in the thread "consciousness is a biological..." and it might give a little clarity to what you are saying here. The mind, in fear, is open to invasion by that which is unseen. Which might be what "possession" is all about. I am not going to delve further, but it would be interesting what you think as to her perspective.

Thanks,
William

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;73071 wrote:

Hi,
In my experiences one is a manifestation of the other. One can have a healthy mind my eating healthy food and vice-versa.

I still eat a very healthy diet myself, basically because I'm still programmed with the beliefs that it will make me healthier, therefore I feel its the best I can do at the moment.

But basically I believe that it's our beliefs and our general mental and spiritual condition that determines both our general health condition as well as how different foods affects us. You may recall the Tibetan lama in "The Holographic Universe" who was served a huge overdose of LSD, apparently without being affected by it at all. I believe the mind has the power to make the body transform or to a more or lesser degree neutralize anything bad that it's being submitted to, even poison.

I think its a complicted question because of all the relativity involved, but to me the general rule is still mind over matter. Everything I have experienced seems to indicate that.

richrf;73071 wrote:

Also, in my experiences, it is easier for people to create an overall well-being by eating healthier food and exercising, getting sun, etc. But each person is different, and some may find other practices work best for them.

I agree, but whenever people achieve the same result from doing different (sometimes completely opposite or contradictory) things there is always a common denominator that is responsible. In this case I see the common denominator as being the belief that what you're doing will make you healthier. The Placebo effect.

richrf;73071 wrote:

From an external perspective, many of the people who promote solely a "mind" approach (I believe all approaches should be looked at), do not seem healthy to me.

Not many people are healthy today in general. Believing in the "mind" approach alone doesn't make you healthy, most of those people who go that way have to change a lot of beliefs in order to improve their health, and that takes time. But if you work on it, you'll get better and better at it. For example, I haven't had a cold or a flu for over 15 years now - at least not one that lasted for over an hour. As soon as I feel any symptoms I take a certain mental approach, and it's gone within in an hour, often within minutes. Anyone can do this, it's basically a matter of what you believe you can and what you believe you can't.

Rado

1 Reply

@rado,

rado;73333 wrote:

Anyone can do this, it's basically a matter of what you believe you can and what you believe you can't.

Rado

Hi there,

In my experiences I have not found that anyone can do this. Health, it appears to me, to be very complicated with many variables, and each person finds their own way. When a pat prescription is given and it doesn't have the desired outcome the person is lost. Better, I feel, to give the person the basic knowledge and let the person figure it out for himself/herself.

I can tell you that in my case your prescription has not had desired outcome. In my case, and others, what food is eaten is an ingredient towards good health. Now, it may be possible for someone to eat pure chemical ingredients (not food) and be able to survive using mind and thoughts, but that is not my case and I would not recommend it to anyone.

What I do recommend is that people understand the basic building blocks of life, e.g. whole food, clean air, clean water, motion, creativity, willfulness, relaxation, and then allow them to work out the way that works best for them. I personally would not feel comfortable teaching people that mind alone will overcome all lifestyle choices.

Rich

1 Reply

@William,

William;73075 wrote:

Rado,thanks. If you would please note a post of Salima's in the thread "consciousness is a biological..." and it might give a little clarity to what you are saying here. The mind, in fear, is open to invasion by that which is unseen. Which might be what "possession" is all about. I am not going to delve further, but it would be interesting what you think as to her perspective.

Thanks,
William

I'm not sure exactly what post of hers you are refering to?

Rado

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;73341 wrote:

Hi there,

In my experiences I have not found that anyone can do this. Health, it appears to me, to be very complicated with many variables, and each person finds their own way. When a pat prescription is given and it doesn't have the desired outcome the person is lost. Better, I feel, to give the person the basic knowledge and let the person figure it out for himself/herself.
Rich

Well what I meant was that everyone has the potential to be able to heal themselves by the power of their mind, just like everyone has the potential to be able to read. But you have to learn to use that potential before you can read or heal yourself, of course.

I agree that we're all on different paths and that that which works for one person may not work for another, and that we should choose that which we feel aligned with or believe most in - even if it's surgery, chemical medicine or radiation therapy. For that is generally what will work best for us.

But I also believe that no matter what path we're on it will eventually, in this life or another, lead us the understanding that the mind is the ultimate healer, and that all the external remedies we're using are just some kind of symbolic tools that we project the healing power of our minds onto so that they appear to do the healing. While in reality it's just our belief that we'll get well again that heals us, notwithstanding the method. That is why it is important to choose the method we believe most in will heal us.

Rado

1 Reply

@rado,

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

My viewpoint extends to the idea that physical tools are extensions of our mind and that other minds (individuals) that are out there might be able to assist in the process. Ultimately, a consensus is formed which hopefully leads to better health.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;73751 wrote:

My viewpoint extends to the idea that physical tools are extensions of our mind and that other minds (individuals) that are out there might be able to assist in the process. Ultimately, a consensus is formed which hopefully leads to better health.

Rich

Okay, then I think we basically perceive things much the same way. I just feel that the ultimate goal is to be independent of external assistance. But until that goal is reached we will be dependent on such assistance yes.

My own interaction with the external assistance in its different forms was what eventually opened my eyes to the fact that the healing power is in ourself, and that we can be in control of our own fate in all aspects of life if we want to. I was searching for the supreme healing method and wanted to understand everything about sickness and health, and so the higher forces lead me through those experiences that was necessary to reach that goal. The assistance sort of changed form as I went along until it became assistance in learning how to become independent of assistance, so to speak. Just like when you raise a child.

I did not expect or want (at least not consciously) to become independent of external assistance regarding my own health, it just ended up being the natural and logical outcome of the process, as things evolved. I'm not "there" yet, there's still some way to go and some things to learn and understand, but it seems clear to me now that it's the goal. A natural part of human evolution.

Rado

1 Reply

@rado,

Hi,

Thanks for your further explanation.

Rich

1 Reply

@richrf,

richrf;73979 wrote:

Hi,

Thanks for your further explanation.

Rich

Your welcome!

Rado

0 Replies

@rado,

rado;73347 wrote:

I'm not sure exactly what post of hers you are refering to?

Rado

It is the 97th post in the "Consciousness is a Biological Problem"

William

---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:48 AM ----------

This is such a fascinating thread. I agree with both of you and how each of your minds process knowledge and information. I believe we are all about "mind". It is IMO the key that will, in and of itself, unlock so many doors for each and every one of use once we stop "taxing" it, so to speak. In researching Nassim Haramein's "new" theories on physics and the unified field theory and espousing there is not such thing as "the smallest, or the largest as reaching "infinity" in either direction, it assumes there is no "invisible" universe or vacuum, so to speak. It is all about complimentary action and stillness which could be applied to the mind in it's most "at ease state" as it, in an of itself process the known and seen universe and complies with it either positively or negatively. It is our responsibility to insure the ease of that "mind" of all people that will allow reciprocal communication between each and every one of us to insure complimentary action. Please understand I am but a neophyte as it relates to all of the exciting understanding of what this man has theorized, but it is indeed much food for thought. :a-ok:

William

0 Replies

Terminal Illness

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know