Questions about god

@Kolbe,

Kolbe wrote:

The question might seem whimsical, and somewhat late, but it's going to bug me until it's answered. What about transvestites? Pan-genders? "Purples", as some call themselves because the actual description is far too long for most to comprehend?

I don't think, considering the infintessimal number of individuals that fall into these "alternative groups" it would be possible to reach any kind analytical and deductive conclusion that would answer the question you asked. What I gave you was my opinion based on that black and white that make up the majority of the human race. I have found when "gray areas" are included in any type of analytical process, that process gets entirely too convoluted making reaching any definitive conclusion almost impossible. I hope this helped.
William

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@Dichanthelium,

Dichanthelium wrote:

And by the way... I would suggest that defining the term "God" doesn't mean that we define God in God's essential self. It just gives us a starting point.

How about 'omnipotent spirit' for a basic definition?

1 Reply

@ACWaller,

I wouldn't mind taking a crack at it. These questions could be asked 100 times and you'd end up with 100 different answers.

Kielicious wrote:

Oh and Im using the 'omnimax' god in case you were wondering which one (i.e. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent, etc...)

Oh yeah, that God. Thanks for clearing that up. :sarcastic:

Kielicious wrote:

1) How is free-will possible with an omniscient being?

How can a being be omniscient? What makes us think God is a 'being' and not something made up by man himself? God may actually be and idea... a golden calf. God has never claimed to be a being.

Kielicious wrote:

2) If god is outside of nature: space, time, matter, energy, etc... then what is god "in"? What is god if he doesnt have matter or energy?

Who says God is outside all these things?.. Man? God is all these things we just tend to tell fish stories which is how God ended up being a big being and separate or outside all these things. Let's not forget who tells the stories of God.

Kielicious wrote:

3) Why is god a 'he'? Why is god anthropomorphised?

He is referred to probably from early religion. Women weren't thought of equal in the eyes of many religions. Man was dominant and head of the house so why would they create a God that is a woman? If this far-fetched deity were a woman, then everything would be changed because of our beliefs.

In all reality though, there is both male and female in all things and ultimately this creates balance. So God, would be both male and female in equal balance.

Kielicious wrote:

4) If god is omnipotent why is there evil, the devil, suffering, etc...?

There is evil only because of man. The devil is yet another creative creation of man. If there were no devil and were no God then how could man control men? If in fact there is a God, God would be balance, love and light and would be in and of all things. So technically, God IS. I AM. You ARE.

Kielicious wrote:

5) How is god conscious? or....How can your consciousness survive death when it needs a brain to function?

Not following you here. Who said God is conscious? or conscience?

Kielicious wrote:

6) If god intervenes with miracles then how does god interact with nature?

God does not intervene with miracles and God is nature. Nature and god are not separate and how could they possibly be? Miracles happen first in the mind of man and manifest themselves into reality. God is Nature, nature is Balance, Balance is Love, God is Love... not a deity but an expression of life in equal pairs of sexed opposites creating.

Kielicious wrote:

That last one is alittle obscure but I'll elaborate if anyone is having a hard time understanding what Im trying to say. So ya, any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks for asking. Again, you will get different answers from many people and maybe nobody is right but after my years of studying and meditating and praying and believing in falsities, I've come to the conclusion that man is one creative entity and has much more control over his or her reality than they know.

1 Reply

@Justin,

I think Star Wars may best describe what I think an all powerful entity may be and answer some other questions.

The force.

In fact this is probably the "Dark Matter" that scientist have found but can't define. Sorry about going off topic for a moment.

It is in human nature to attempt to create a tangable thing you could see, hear or touch. For the brain of mere mortals (including myself most of the time) needs to relate to something it can connect with on a physical level or run the risk of blowing the Ol' head gasket.

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@ogre,

Kielicious wrote:

Oh and Im using the 'omnimax' god in case you were wondering which one (i.e. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent, etc...)

Then already a problem arises. Descriptions of God cannot be confused with God: any description necessarily falls short of an accurate description of God. Perhaps this is why you have been told to read Bible verses.

Kielicious wrote:

1) How is free-will possible with an omniscient being?

The easy answer: just because God knows what you are going to do does not mean that God made the decision for you.

Kielicious wrote:

2) If god is outside of nature: space, time, matter, energy, etc... then what is god "in"? What is god if he doesnt have matter or energy?

Is God "in" anything, or are things "in" God?

Kielicious wrote:

3) Why is god a 'he'? Why is god anthropomorphised?

God is personified because we speak about God. It's only language.

Kielicious wrote:

4) If god is omnipotent why is there evil, the devil, suffering, etc...?

The devil is temptation. Evil is man projecting. Suffering is the result of man's actions.
But more importantly: why is God omnipotent? What would that even mean? Calling God "omnipotent" only points toward the truth; it cannot be the truth.

Kielicious wrote:

5) How is god conscious? or....How can your consciousness survive death when it needs a brain to function?

How can we describe God in human terms - like consciousness.

Does consciousness survive death? The influence of any given consciousness survives physical death, to be sure, but the actual consciousness cannot.

Kielicious wrote:

6) If god intervenes with miracles then how does god interact with nature?

For God to interact with nature, nature would have to be something separate from God.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

Can someone tell me what is so great about free will anyway?

Let me pose a situation and then tell me honestly if you think free will should be allowed to the individual. The individual is a child. (Bear in mind, Christ said that unless you come as a little child...) This particular child tells daddy that he wants to go out and play on the busy street. Well, should daddy tell the child that he has the right to choose, that he has free will?

Now, don't come back to me with any of this nonsense about not being of an age to make rational choices regarding one's safety. Do that and you're not coming as a child. As pertains to God, we're talking about salvation here and eternal damnation. Do you really want that choice to be left in your hands? Could you ever, no matter how capable you become of rationalizing and safeguarding yourself, be considered anything other than a child when put beside God? Well, if you're going to be a child, then be a child. Be his child.

The biggest mistake that man ever made was asking for the right to choose. That's an adult's right, the right to choose. But hey, if you want God to treat you like an adult then go ahead and insist on it. But if you don't like the outcome, just don't bother getting upset with him because he let you have your own way.

I am legitimately impressed. That's a great argument. However, it is a mute point if we do in fact have free will, because there would be nothing we could do to get ride of it.

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Kielicious wrote:

So whenever I ask these questions to priests, preachers, theists, etc. I dont really get satisfying answers. Usually they tell me to read certain verses in the bible. So Im just looking for better answers than what I have gotten. Im sure alot of these questions arent new but any responses are appreciated. Thanks guys!

Oh and Im using the 'omnimax' god in case you were wondering which one (i.e. Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnibenevolent, etc...)

1) How is free-will possible with an omniscient being?

2) If god is outside of nature: space, time, matter, energy, etc... then what is god "in"? What is god if he doesnt have matter or energy?

3) Why is god a 'he'? Why is god anthropomorphised?

4) If god is omnipotent why is there evil, the devil, suffering, etc...?

5) How is god conscious? or....How can your consciousness survive death when it needs a brain to function?

6) If god intervenes with miracles then how does god interact with nature?

That last one is alittle obscure but I'll elaborate if anyone is having a hard time understanding what Im trying to say. So ya, any help is appreciated. Thanks.

1. This depends on your notion of freedom. While God can foreknow what you will do, he in no way affects your decision. Thus (at least on a libertarian notion of freedom, if I'm not mistaken which I may be) you can still be free.

2. It is not obvious to me that God is necessarily timeless, outside of space, etc. If he is, then asking the questions "where is God" or "when is God" are literally meaningless. (I know that's a somewhat insufficient answer).

3. Unfortunately, God is probably described as a he because of the patriarchal society in which Christianity arose. I think of God as a he because the Bible says Adam (a man) was made in the likeness of God. But does it really matter if God is a he, she or it?

4. If God were omnipotent, maybe he's not all-loving. Assuming you meant the omnimax God, then I would argue (as would most) that it's due to free will. We are responsible for the suffering of the world, not God.

5. These are two separate questions. Why couldn't God be conscious? I'm not sure where you're coming from. As for consciousness continuing on after death, that's where the idea of a soul comes in.

6. This is a great question (though they all really are). I think God could interact with nature (possibly at the quantum level) but I can't give a simple answer to this one. Perhaps he works with nature; there is room for fluctuation a variance in science.

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@Axis Austin,

Axis Austin wrote:

I am legitimately impressed. That's a great argument. However, it is a mute point if we do in fact have free will, because there would be nothing we could do to get ride of it.

I don't think the point is so much whether or not we have free will, but whether or not we want it. Let me say that there should be a distinction made between free will and free thinking. We all think and are free to think as we wish. Even the child of an overbearingly protective parent can think whatever he/she wants. It's just a matter of what we can and can't do, and again, moreover, what we want to be able to do and not to do. For instance, wanting God to leave it up to me to decide whether or not I receive eternal life is an awfully careless thing to do. More than that, it shows that I don't trust God enough to let him make the decision, that I'd prefer the decision was in my hands and not his. I think a child should (and most children do) trust their father enough to let him make those decisions that involve the child's future and well being.

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@Kielicious,

Hey Kielicious,

I don't know if you want an atheist's answers; but in the unlikely event you do, here are mine:

Kielicious wrote:

1) How is free-will possible with an omniscient being?

A being with infinite awareness, insight and 'complete' knowledge may or may not entail any preordination. I suppose, given how it's phrased, I'd have to answer: Omniscience, itself, doesn't preclude free will (at least not as the term is defined).

Kielicious wrote:

2) If god is outside of nature: space, time, matter, energy, etc... then what is god "in"? What is god if he doesnt have matter or energy?

Well that's the beauty of a non-defined entity; it only exists in the mind of the 'definer'. This means it may or may not exist in any, all, or no conceptualizations we have of presence. Ask a thousand believers and you'll likely get a 1,000 different answers. I suppose, actually, the best way to answer this is: What do you believe? Is there a god outside the constructs of space, time and matter/energy (as we conceive them)?

Kielicious wrote:

3) Why is god a 'he'? Why is god anthropomorphised?

... because we find comfort in those 'things' like us. Humans, as a whole, are often very narcissistic; self-absorbed, self-aggrandized. But take care; not all religious views look at 'god' this way - many go in the opposite direction, choosing to believe in "something" that they can't quite define. But... I'm guessing you knew this; it may seem obvious, but I think it important to re-emphasize in any theistic discussion.

Kielicious wrote:

4) If god is omnipotent why is there evil, the devil, suffering, etc...?

Once again, it depends on who you ask. But my take (and I do find religion very fascinating and often endearing - I've read a lot on its various forms) is this: When we conceive of a single being who is the architect of creation and is 'good', we can't much account for any goodness without also interjecting what we also see as 'bad'. The logic-trap that you bring up is explained a number of ways throughout various religions. By and large; however, it often comes down to "... opposition in all things" - that one isn't possible without allowing the existence of the other.

Kielicious wrote:

5) How is god conscious? or....How can your consciousness survive death when it needs a brain to function?

Religious views that hold this view, generally do so via the concept of a 'soul'; that the brain isn't needed for thought and/or existence. Do you believe there is a 'soul' of some sort?

Kielicious wrote:

6) If god intervenes with miracles then how does god interact with nature?

Again, lots of possible explanations. A few might be: By simply creating it, not at all, by living through nature (of which we are a part), etc.

I'm not sure I've been very helpful, but thanks for the questions anyway Smile

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

I don't think the point is so much whether or not we have free will, but whether or not we want it. Let me say that there should be a distinction made between free will and free thinking. We all think and are free to think as we wish. Even the child of an overbearingly protective parent can think whatever he/she wants. It's just a matter of what we can and can't do, and again, moreover, what we want to be able to do and not to do. For instance, wanting God to leave it up to me to decide whether or not I receive eternal life is an awfully careless thing to do. More than that, it shows that I don't trust God enough to let him make the decision, that I'd prefer the decision was in my hands and not his. I think a child should (and most children do) trust their father enough to let him make those decisions that involve the child's future and well being.

Once again, I think it's a great point but incorrect all the same. Even if we want to leave it up to God, that's not the way it is (at least that's what I believe). God says we must go to him.

It seems that what you're mentioning is kind of how things are. God gives us the choice to reject or choose him, and we can go to him, in a sense giving him the choice. If you want to leave it up to God, then that shows you believe in and have faith in God. I know that's a little bit of a play on your idea, but it seems more characteristic of the actual situation.:cool:

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Kielicious, as far as "3." goes, His he-ness is semantic in origin. In the Old Testament, God is represented as having both male and female characteristics, and I don't believe Hebrew assigns the same gender Latinate languages do--that is, His he-ness was created when the Bible was translated into Greek (in the Septuagint).

Somebody else probably said this before me.

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@Axis Austin,

Axis Austin wrote:

Once again, I think it's a great point but incorrect all the same. Even if we want to leave it up to God, that's not the way it is (at least that's what I believe). God says we must go to him.

It seems that what you're mentioning is kind of how things are. God gives us the choice to reject or choose him, and we can go to him, in a sense giving him the choice. If you want to leave it up to God, then that shows you believe in and have faith in God. I know that's a little bit of a play on your idea, but it seems more characteristic of the actual situation.:cool:

We know the actual situation now?

Well, the actual situation is this; I love my own son too much to allow him to do himself permanant, lasting damage when it is within my power to prevent it. If God doesn't love his own children that much, then I have more love than God, and I am a better father than God. If that is the actual situation, then we're all f'd.

1 Reply

@Solace,

I think what you just described is more likely than what you were advocating early. I think God gives us (or makes us have) free will and we must go to him. Perhaps he is not loving, knowing that some will reject him. But perhaps he is supremely loving, letting us learn from our mistakes and freely choose him. In what way is believing in God legitimate if we don't have a choice in the matter?

1 Reply

@ogre,

All interesting questions. Not sure I have any absolute answers, but will posit a response.

1) How is free-will possible with an omniscient being?

If you believe there is a nature to all things and you apparently believe God represents a perfect existence, then how could that God create a nature incorporating enslaved (a non-free will by nature existent) being? Also, if "free-will" were not extant, your question would not be your question, but instead a predetermined thought/question, hence not of your intelligence.

2) If god is outside of nature: space, time, matter, energy, etc... then what is god "in"? What is god if he doesn't have matter or energy?

If existent, the nature of God must be a non-material, infinite and a "perfect" existence that created all other existence. If not, what preceded "first" material existence? Or, is it more reasonable to believe "first" existence was self caused? It seems to me both concepts are equally speculative at present.

3) Why is god a 'he'? Why is god anthropomorphized?

What make you believe God is a "He" and a She or it ?

Anthropomorphized because it makes what was created (us) feel better, i.e., closer to a Creator.

4) If god is omnipotent why is there evil, the devil, suffering, etc...?

Because, if it is the nature of God to be all powerful and perfect, that God must be by nature incapable of entering time --- because what is in time changes and what is perfect cannot become more perfect and therefore must by nature be incapable of change and outside of time as we comprehend the concept.

5) How is god conscious? or....How can your consciousness survive death when it needs a brain to function?

If there is a God, that consciousness is simply all knowing, but not to be confused with being temporal. Human consciousness beyond death would require a different existence from our comprehension.

6) If god intervenes with miracles then how does god interact with nature?

A perfect God by nature is therefore by nature is incapable of "in time" miracles, or control of good or bad events (re #4 above).

Just my belief, hope it helps you.

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@Axis Austin,

Axis Austin wrote:

I think what you just described is more likely than what you were advocating early. I think God gives us (or makes us have) free will and we must go to him. Perhaps he is not loving, knowing that some will reject him. But perhaps he is supremely loving, letting us learn from our mistakes and freely choose him. In what way is believing in God legitimate if we don't have a choice in the matter?

Ah, but you're assuming that you have a choice in what you believe. If you do, then I invite you to follow this link to another thread here on the forum and show us how you choose what you believe by answering some of the questions posed there by Khethil, myself and some others.

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-religion/2631-nature-belief.html

Essentially the argument there is that we don't have a choice in what we believe, but if you're going to dispute the logistics of it it's best that you do so there rather than here.

As pertains to what we've been talking about here, though, I will ask you this; you didn't get to choose who your earthly father was, so what makes you think that you get to choose who your heavenly father is? How is it that we get to subject God to our will, to tell him that he is or isn't our father?

As for the answer to this question,

Axis Austin wrote:

In what way is believing in God legitimate if we don't have a choice in the matter?

We're not taking a test here. The purpose of life is not to prove to God whether or not you believe in him. After all, he already knows. This is something that too many believers fail to understand; belief benefits you, not God.

Even if there is no afterlife, no eternal life, no heaven or hell, no God, are you better off living this life with your belief or without? I should hope that your answer is that you are better off with your belief, because if not then you have squandered your life on a belief that you didn't even want, except on the selfish desire for eternal reward. If you can't be responsible enough to be true to yourself in this one life, how can you possibly be responsible enough to handle eternal life?

Believers need to give up this notion that what we believe gets us somewhere. Isn't it just entirely silly to say that because I believe something I deserve a reward? If you don't consider the belief itself to be, in and of itself, reward enough, then you don't deserve any eternal reward, nor, for that matter, do you even deserve the belief. We need to start seeing faith as a means for improving this life, and quit using it as a gateway to get to another one.

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@Kielicious,

Whaaat God???????What benefit????

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@Kielicious,

Solace, thank you for the link. I look forward to going through it and learning more about the issue. For our current purpose, yes I do think we can choose our beliefs. While we have no choice about who our earthly and heavenly fathers are, many don't believe that God is the heavenly father. Thus, we can choose to believe in him or not.

As for the rewards of believe, I agree that it should have a positive aspect on this life. But to ignore its necessity in securing a positive afterlife doesn't go along with common Christian belief, which I mostly ascribe to. I think the Bible is clear that you must believe in God to go to heaven, so it is important for more than just this current life.

1 Reply

@Kielicious,

Believe in God??? In that age there were no athiests...Everybody believed in some kind of God, with spares...Usually... But you had to have the right God to go to heaven... Doesn't that make you feel better; having a formula to follow, a set of rule...Just pick your right foot up, put your right foot down, pick your left foot up and shake it all around...That's how I feel about my church: Stand up, kneel down, stand up, sit... Kneel down, stand up, sing a little bit, hear the Gospel, say hello, have communion go, go, go....sit right down and pray pray pray for giveness on another day, and that's how you do the Catholic hokey pokey...
How about just being decent to people instead of spending all your extra energy supporting some big institution that does not help anyone but themselves...If you care if you go to heaven you don't care enough for people...Seriously, if you see some one in hell on earth and you don't give them a hand for fear of a few burns then it would be some weird heaven that would have you...

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@Axis Austin,

Axis Austin wrote:

Solace, thank you for the link. I look forward to going through it and learning more about the issue. For our current purpose, yes I do think we can choose our beliefs. While we have no choice about who our earthly and heavenly fathers are, many don't believe that God is the heavenly father. Thus, we can choose to believe in him or not.

As for the rewards of believe, I agree that it should have a positive aspect on this life. But to ignore its necessity in securing a positive afterlife doesn't go along with common Christian belief, which I mostly ascribe to. I think the Bible is clear that you must believe in God to go to heaven, so it is important for more than just this current life.

If I don't believe that my earthly father is actually my father, then does that mean he suddenly no longer is my father? Of course not. So why then does my belief determine who my heavenly father is? This life and the one hereafter are more closely related than people like to give it credit for. We can learn our most valuable lessons about spiritual things by forgetting about scripture and dogma, and even history for that matter, and just taking a closer look at the basics of life around us. That is, after all, what the writers of those scriptures had to do in the first place before they wrote anything.

You can say,

Axis Austin wrote:

I think the Bible is clear that you must believe in God to go to heaven, so it is important for more than just this current life.

but it sure isn't clear to me, or else I wouldn't be making this argument. I'm sure you could pick out verses that say something of the like, but I could pick out ones that say something else. Such as the verse that says that we are not saved by our faith, but by Christ's faith. In the end we simply need to figure out what makes the most sense to us individually. And there is no argument that anyone is ever going to make about why a loving father would burn his own children that is ever going to make sense to me.

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@Kielicious,

Fido, I'm sorry you've had such a rotten experience at church; I understand your feelings about it. I take a different approach to church. I don't take it as just a strict set of rules, and I've had good experiences. As for "if you care if you go to heaven you don't care enough for people" that is completely ridiculous. It's like saying if you love one of your children then you don't love the other. You can care if you go to heaven and help others (perhaps, it even helps because selfish people would want to help just so they could get to heaven - though I'm not promoting that).

Solace, I agree that if you don't believe God is your father it does not mean he is not. That was my point before. As for belief getting you into heaven, I suppose I'll agree to disagree. I think God gave us free-will so that we could choose to reject or choose him (which it seemed like you accepted but disliked earlier). Perhaps this makes him unloving, as you've challenged, but I already expressed my thought on that.

1 Reply

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