violence and its consequence

Not by anything I have typed.



Except that is not the argument, much less the old argument. Non-violent resistance is a manner by which people enter a conflict.



Your straw dog is peeing on my lawn again.

You are becoming more and more rhetoric,when you are prepared to answer my posts rather than make vague excuses why you cant, ill debate with you on this subject,till then bye.

Oh, good, you refuse to acknowledge history. Not that I am exactly surprised, but whatever.

But I have to ask: do you still maintain that every Roman Catholic position is bigoted in light of the aforementioned examples? Honestly, if you do, then there really is nothing further to discuss. Such dogma precludes honest discourse.

Xris

I don't think the Jews could have done anything to stop the war. They were a small minority and a small minority is easy to suppress

We had the reverse over here in South Africa where a small minority was able to suppress a very large majority with the appalling apartheid philosophy for three hundred years at that.

What chance did a million German Jews have of unseating an evil dictator like Hitler ?

Remember Poland was the country with the most people of Jewish descent, not Germany!

Comment: There is no strawman any larger than that of which the Jewish People use to define their "ethnic purity". On an individual level I find the conversaton with those of this ethnicity enlightening and informative, but as to how each and every one, when pressed, cling to that very "strawman" that represents "their" people as a whole, is their "ace in the hole", IMO. On the planet Earth there are only human beings, I hope to think anyway, and any measures to "defend" that ethnic purity will always fall out of favor with others who are doing the same. These things are what wars are made of. If we effort to understand each other in the "human" sense we will reach that purity that will define the "Earthling". That is who we are. When engaged in any effort to communicate and and a derision is felt by any "race", attempts will be made to go back to those times that will invariably bring the suffering of that race to the fore. We have all suffered and using those sufferings as an excuse to defend that "ethnic" barrier only separates us even further. We must let the past go and do all we can to create that "Earthling" mind set that will unite us as a whole. There are no other alternatives. NONE!

Perhaps there is a truth that can only be discovered on the "other side" of war, but we sure are not taking advantage of it if there is. This battle between nations can be reduce down to the differences of individuals and the war continues. We are not fighting with sticks and stones anymore. It's gotten rather serious. If we were all totally "independent" individuals who could survive independently without relying on each another would be one thing, but that is absolutely impossible. How much bloodshed, suffering, hate and misery are we to endure before we come to the realization we are not independent of each other. Damn! To hell with the "pen is mightier than the sword"; let's talk about it. Many can't even read what the pen is trying to establish (try reading and understanding the "insanity" on a "legal" document, for crying out loud) when a "handshake" would have sufficed. Something is really wrong with this picture.

We have to let bygones be bygones and bury that horrific past we all have suffered and learn to communicate without dredging it up again, or we will learn nothing but the need to prepare for another war.

I am so sick and tired of witnessing this battle of ego's. Ethnicity being one of them. One of the greatest mistakes America ever made was in it's attempt to "force" one ethinic group on another and 'demand' they get along. That was not what our forefathers intended. Unity doesn't come that "easy" considering the ethnic "bias" that exist that stems from those who deem themselves ethnically pure. There is no such thing. We all have our "impurities"; all of us. So "you scrub my back, and I'll scrub yours" so to speak and we will "come clean" together.

I am not inviting argument here in that there is no way anyone on this Earth can alter my thinking. I only offer it for consideration and will not debate it. Philosophically impossible, maybe? I will entertain those ideas and thoughts that could enhance our thinking, and please, by all means offer it. My comments are all about violence and it's consequences and I can only hope what I have espoused will reach that "common sense" we all claim to have, or do we? That perhaps is the problem. Can we reach a "common sense" among all people? If not, then life as we know it is destined to get a hell of a lot worse. IMMHO.

William

Dont mix the threads Tom its not done, just answer or leave it alone.thanks xris..

---------- Post added 07-06-2009 at 11:41 AM ----------

Alan they had no chance just like the gypsies or anyone else they took a dislike to.I do believe they where used because of their wealth to help bankroll the war.The Swiss bankers gave Hitler his money to rearm with the promise of a profit from war.A certain commemorative gold medallion was minted by the Swiss in the fifties,it was found to contain larger than normal amounts of mercury,just like gold teeth fillings.We could be generous and say it was a problem with the castings but it makes you think.The debate here hinged on if we could negotiate with bullies and if violence ever can stop the bullies.I say violence on certain occassions is the only answer.

You cant negotiate with bullies imo you have to bring them down.

xris -- I agree with much of what you've said. I contested the part about the Jews because I think it's not a very good example. But I agree with the rest of your point.

I am not of the belief that ANY non-violent means could have arrested what happened in WWII. If you look at how they intentionally violated treaties and invaded noncombatants nations, it's pretty clear that diplomacy was a tool for military manipulation and not peace. Killing a certain core of them, probably Hitler, Himmler, Heydrich, von Ribbentrop, and Goebbels might have left a leadership that was more willing to sue for peace.


And where pray tell might you find this claim? This is sort of the obverse of the Nazis' argument -- it's certainly not a Jewish definition. The Jews can claim cultural and religious (and perhaps community) continuity -- but "ethnic purity"? I never heard that one in synagogue...

Ah, it's the victims' fault for defining themselves. Perhaps I should remind you about the Wannsee Conference...

Maybe people defend their identity because there is no safety in the community of 'earth'. People are provincial. They exist as (and defend) families first, kin second, community third, nation fourth, humanity fifth. The weak in a group survive because of the advocacy of the strong.

If we call it a bygone, then we're going to miss it the next time it happens. That's exactly what happened in Bosnia -- people in Europe thought they knew better than to let a genocide happen again.

Our nation's forefathers 1) kept slaves, 2) ethnically cleansed the "Indians", 3) did not allow racial minorities to have suffrage.

Our forefathers fostered conflict, and despite their various merits, they created unstable conditions that were only resolved with the Civil War and later the Civil Rights movement. Momentum in the opposite direction, this forcing that people get along, has to do with necessity because of our unmatched diversity, and also making up for past evils that are rife in our country's history.

Caroline:
As I stated earlier, the only proven successful way to get an abuser to stop abusing is forced separation of some sort. So in most cases it means that the woman has to leave, because until she is ready to leave, press charges, or whatever, the abuse will continue. Abusive men and women are not mere bullies, it is not a school yard tussle where a guy has to establish a rep amongst his peers. Abuse comes from deeply ingrained issues of nurture and low self esteem/self doubt couple with a touch of genertic propensity towards sociopathy. The abuser seeks those he can abuse because it solidifies in his mind power, that normally in his non-family life he lacks. Add the sociopathy ion with it and you have an instant recipe for someone who will not stop, and who will blame everything bad that happens to him on the people he is abusing.

That is spot on!
I was in an abusive relationship and he blamed me for everything, the guy was a psycho. When he ws a child he was treated differently from his siblings, his Mum abused him and so did his siblings, they relied on him to take care of them too but he could not break the cycle of abuse when he grew up, he lost his kids and couldnt hold down a relationship.

A consequence of violence is fear, the bane of humanity and opposite of security and love

Heaven is simply a continuous real absence of fear

Peace not War

Paul, I am sorry you missed the overall meaning of my post, yet I assumed this would happen as it always does any time the word "Jewish" appears in any dialog. I only used it because of the influence they have in the world in which we live that is on the brink of annilizaition and utter chaos. You have a right to defend "your people" til your hearts content, but personally, etnic purity and all it espouses SUCKS in my most honorable opinion when it comes to argument. There is no place for it in this world and IMO it is the root of all the bloodshed as one competes with another to prove themselves over another. We agree on many things but this is one we will never agree on; Never! Hell, I'm Irish but I don't cling to that in that being human means more to me than any "label" we tag on that we "claim" to be. Sorry, we will just have to disagree for the time being. :surrender:

William