violence and its consequence

@xris,

Violence wont end if I am violent.

Either that or natural selection will see this idea end and it wont mean squat Smile

What do you mean specifically by "I nearly killed him"?

2 Replies

@validity,

I'm sure beating the heck out of that fellow gave you a great deal of satisfaction. But was your satisfaction a solution to her problem?

Recall the scene from Don Quixote - our hero comes across a young man being beaten by his master. Don Quixote intervenes, but afterward the young lad subjected to an even greater beating. Don Quixote was satisfied by his work, but his work proved counter productive.

Violence begets violence. Power of moral example is very real.By responding with violence you assert violence as a solution and in the process produce further violence. Notice how that jack-ass's violence caused your own violence. Gotta break the cycle. Gotta try some peace.

1 Reply

@validity,

validity;74240 wrote:

Violence wont end if I am violent.

Either that or natural selection will see this idea end and it wont mean squat

What do you mean specifically by "I nearly killed him"?

exactly that, he nearly died by my action.His violence to her was constant uptil then but it stopped afterwards.

---------- Post added at 09:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 AM ----------

Didymos Thomas;74247 wrote:

I'm sure beating the heck out of that fellow gave you a great deal of satisfaction. But was your satisfaction a solution to her problem?

Recall the scene from Don Quixote - our hero comes across a young man being beaten by his master. Don Quixote intervenes, but afterward the young lad subjected to an even greater beating. Don Quixote was satisfied by his work, but his work proved counter productive.

Violence begets violence. Power of moral example is very real.By responding with violence you assert violence as a solution and in the process produce further violence. Notice how that jack-ass's violence caused your own violence. Gotta break the cycle. Gotta try some peace.

i would not call it satisfying, it frightened me, my violence.If it had not resolved the problem i promised him i would return,it stopped.Was i right?

2 Replies

@xris,

xris;74238 wrote:

She arrived at the door badly beaten,bruised and limping.Her husband i knew beat her on occassions, was sitting just inside the door.I asked him if he had done this to her,he replied" she deserved it,she should keep her mouth shut."I nearly killed him, i have no regrets,am i wrong.

xris, I can honestly say I too would have had a hard time dealing with this situation without yanking this guy out of the house and beating him to near death... However, as I look back on the times where I have been violent I can see the downside to it.

Recently I walked into a mexican restaurant at 2:00pm to grab a quick meal and as soon as I walked in, I turned to see the owner at the bar slap a waitress. 5 years ago I would have reacted in violence which would have made things worse for all of us. Instead that same waitress came to the table and I asked, "are you OK?". She didn't answer because the embarrassment of just being slapped accross the face. Needless to say I simply got up and walked out before I did something irrational. Let me tell you, I had to use powers beyond my control to walk out without putting a hurt on this guy. Instead, I remembered Joey Korn's method of blessing and simply blessed them both and went somewhere else.

I used to be a loose cannnon when it came to violence returning violence. But, as I mature I easily see that Love conquers even the most evil and most violent of the all. It's not easy to love the unlovely or 'Kill them with kindness' but in the end, it promotes more positive change then violent reactions. Usually the violent people have been subject to violence in the past and when someone returns Love instead of violence it can be a life changing example and experience.

Didymos Thomas;74247 wrote:

Violence begets violence. Power of moral example is very real.By responding with violence you assert violence as a solution and in the process produce further violence. Notice how that jack-ass's violence caused your own violence. Gotta break the cycle. Gotta try some peace.

Amen to that. In all seriousness, when violence occurs within the body, toxins are released. I had much trouble with this in my past and for some of it I didn't know how bad it's effect really was... Of course in my case it was far greater than typical violence, it was rage.

It completely drains your energy. Releases toxins within the body that are cancer causing or even worse. It's no good and there is nothing solved with violence and that's why I'm so against it today. I've been violent and been the subject of violence and damnit if I'm going to surround myself in such an atmosphere. There's something to be said about the power of love and balance especially when it radiates outward.

Violence attracts violence as we see in our world today and in history. Violence also attracts many other BAD things into ones life.

So, were you wrong?... I wouldn't say so. I would say though that this is an opportunity for you to learn and grow from your mistakes and go deep within yourself to find peace that no violence can shake. You'll find that once you can respond lovingly to violence, violence disappears.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;74247 wrote:

I

Violence begets violence.

Have you anything other than anecdotal evidence for that view? I would suppose, off the top of my head, that is sometimes true. But, I would suppose that sometimes that is not true, and that sometimes, violence settles the issue once and for all. It would depend on the particular case.

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@Justin,

I don't think I can express a response without letting slip a very large contradiction:

What you did was, by my set, ethically wrong.

What you did was (likely) badly needed and I'll shake your hand for it.

In a broader sense, answering violence with violence hurts more than it helps and generally ends up self-defeating. This isn't just a cliche', it works. But what you're addressing isn't a perfect situation borne of considerate parties; where a courteous response is worth anything. I also believe there are times when in the midst of addressing an immoral act, one must choose the lesser of evils; a situation where acting is wrong and not-acting is unacceptable.

Tough one - and good post.

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@Justin,

Justin ,i cant walk away its not my nature, my weakness.I'm not big so im no bully,just cant help it,adrenaline runs, my body shakes and im not in control.Its too late for me to learn,i might die by the sword.I have regrets and on the odd occasion i have walked away i regret that to.I never act if its against me, just bullies who harm women or children.My wife is the only one who can stop me,bless her.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris;74343 wrote:

Justin ,i cant walk away its not my nature, my weakness.I'm not big so im no bully,just cant help it,adrenaline runs, my body shakes and im not in control.Its too late for me to learn,i might die by the sword.I have regrets and on the odd occasion i have walked away i regret that to.I never act if its against me, just bullies who harm women or children.My wife is the only one who can stop me,bless her.

Neither could I at one time and I still have a hard time walking away. I wont stand aside and watch as someone beats on another but I have to be careful because when I get pissed off or allow myself to get to a certain point, it's very easy to pass the point of no return so I must control myself... LOL. It's not really all the funny but dang if it isn't a very hard thing to do.

I go back to this... I cannot control people. I cannot control who wants to harm who and I cannot control the circumstances leading up to violence. The only thing I have complete control of is my perception of the incident and likewise my reflection, which would be my reaction to it. Once something controls you that you cannot control, it's dangerous. I've been there and the cost was a great one.

On the other hand, we learn from our mistakes and we evolve and mature to give us understanding for what we do. The most important thing is that we take each incident and do our best to learn from them and discover who we are through them.

Seriously, I could write a book about violence and have participated in much of it at one time and it's no good no matter what the temporary outcome may be. The long term effects are enormous and harmful. Again, I cannot control 'them' all I can control is my reaction to 'them' and hope emotions and ego doesn't get in the way.

The surest way to hurt ourselves is to hurt someone else. I cannot stress that enough.

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@xris,

I hate violence. Makes me physically ill to see it, feel it, be exposed to it in any way. It is everywhere you look. Turn your head to avoid it, its in the opposite direction as well. Its like a plague. Forces its way into the lives of us all.

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@xris,

xris;74304 wrote:

exactly that, he nearly died by my action.His violence to her was constant uptil then but it stopped afterwards.

Perhaps the case of wrong or right is best left until the question "was the use of violence towards this man the best way in which you could of altered this situation towards a resolution where this lady is safe?" is answered.

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@Elmud,

Xris:
It is a common misconception based on our inherent sense of vengeance and protective nature of the innocent, that beating up an abuser is what that abuser needs to "learn his lesson". The normal abuser, however, is likely to take his beating out on his wife/children/sig other several fold, blaming them for his beating, blaming them for being so brazen as to expose themselves and the evidence of their due punishment to the public. This doesn't really address whether or not violence solves anything in all cases, I suppose if you would have actually killed him it may have solved her problem. But this does address what is missing here in this discussion and others on the forum related to it, which is the psychology of the habitually violent.

1 Reply

@xris,

What if it had been a child? I know what xris would have done. What about everyone else? To me there is no difference, yet I could not have reconciled with my own conscience to just walk away. Had it been a child, I too would have probably done as xris, though it would have been followed up by actions as I would have done all in my power to get that person out of that situation. It could have been devine reconning in that xris happened to be there at that particular time to rescue a life in serious danger. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I, too, think I would had to go with "do". I couldn't not have dealt with it otherwise. It would have eaten me alive. Yes, I would suffer but it would be a suffering I would have to live with; better than facing the possible reality of by inaction could later cause the death of that individual. That I would have a hard time dealing with.

William

1 Reply

@William,

kennethamy;74339 wrote:

Have you anything other than anecdotal evidence for that view? I would suppose, off the top of my head, that is sometimes true. But, I would suppose that sometimes that is not true, and that sometimes, violence settles the issue once and for all. It would depend on the particular case.

Forget anecdotal. It's pure psychology. Being violent reinforces the tendency toward violence. Thus, violence begets violence. Being violent sets an example to others who are privy to the violence, thus normalizing the violence for those witnesses. Thus, violence begets violence.

Ever wondered why children who come from violent homes tend to establish violent homes themselves?

Sure, there are counter examples, but the trend is apparent to any who is interested in taking notice. Smoking crack once may not always lead to addiction, but smoking crack once tends to lead to addiction - thus smoking crack begets smoking crack. Don't smoke crack. Refrain from violence. Pretty straightforward stuff.

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@xris,

I guess the best way to describe the uncontrollable urge to establish justice can be depicted in the movie "LONESOME DOVE", in my opinion the greatest western ever made. In the scene in which Captain Call (Tommy Lee Jones) reacting to Newt's being beaten by the "Army Scout". In his justification for the merciless beating he rendered as "punishment" for the cruelty of the scout, almost killing him, his last words in the scene were "I hate rude behavior in a man. Won't tolerate it". For what it is worth. There are those occasions when rendering justice is uncontrollable.

William

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@xris,

If someone cannot defend themselves defend them but only if it does not have violent repercussions. Bullies, cowards who pick on weaker then themselvess often will shut up once someonelse who matches them and/or more, will often not have the guts to defeat you and a will stay down but others are sly, cunning, dirty and devious and resentful. People who raped beat etc women and people who are weaker used to be taken out to the woods and dealt with, i cannot advocate violence and it is dangerous because it can have repercussions, for instance a real life example where i used to work in this taxi firm the radio girl was left in the office on her own one night and was raped by a customer, the drivers and the owner took him out to the woods, did that help the girl? did it show the rapist that he cannot do such a things, did he rape again? would the girl have got any justice from society,ie, would he have been taken to court? could he have sought revenge and brought his mates down and fought the drivers? Each case is different and you have to be careful. When others get involved the bully resents the victim afterwards and the victim can be made to pay and people have died getting involved in other peoples sufferings, you have to be so careful. Bullies are weak, there are so many non-violent ways to bring a bully down and can be more effective. The solution is often simple, (for you and vicitm) and effective, (bully gets dealt with).

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@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;74415 wrote:

Xris:
It is a common misconception based on our inherent sense of vengeance and protective nature of the innocent, that beating up an abuser is what that abuser needs to "learn his lesson". The normal abuser, however, is likely to take his beating out on his wife/children/sig other several fold, blaming them for his beating, blaming them for being so brazen as to expose themselves and the evidence of their due punishment to the public. This doesn't really address whether or not violence solves anything in all cases, I suppose if you would have actually killed him it may have solved her problem. But this does address what is missing here in this discussion and others on the forum related to it, which is the psychology of the habitually violent.

I dont think rationally on these occassions, its my weakness,thankfully my rage is only ever directed at those who are inflicting pain on a women or child.I understand your opinion but fortunately it resolved this problem. I did not want to change his attitude i just wanted him to feel pain like he had inflicted pain,the reasoned me came afterwards when I promised to return if he harmed her again.
Id be interested to know what you would do if your life was threatened by violence,would you fight back?

---------- Post added 07-03-2009 at 07:04 AM ----------

validity;74411 wrote:

Perhaps the case of wrong or right is best left until the question "was the use of violence towards this man the best way in which you could of altered this situation towards a resolution where this lady is safe?" is answered.

Rage has no reasoning it consumes you.He had a history of violence i found out afterwards.His son from a previous marriage had his leg broken by him and he tied up one women, beat her and then urinated on her.I'm thankful he now walks with a limp and he has scars on his face to remind him of the consequences of violence.

1 Reply

@xris,

I think natural selection has propagated humans with genetic violent tendencies. Humans have the potential for great violence because it has served our species. Violent behavior in a group of humans is seldom viewed in the same light as it is with animals. You may argue that cooperation also benefits the species, and I would agree, but only cooperation within the social group. The group would then dominate other groups with violence.

For example: when there are two Eagle chicks and one is bigger, the parents feed it more and it will likely literally kick its sibling out of the nest. It is fairly easy to see why this behavior might be advantageous in resource management to ensure one eagle is able to thrive. This sort of thing happens in nature all the time and is not limited to animals but has affected humans as well (IMO). So the meek humans were decimated by their violent rivals who slaughtered them and took their resources, and the violent male was able to dominate and be more prolific. It all leads humans to be genetically prone to violence.

We try to think of ourselves as being civilized, and we are somehow ruled by morality, but all too often we have been in denial of our violent nature. We will be genetically less violent when conditions select for less violence. Perhaps we will have to reach a crescendo of annihilation in order for the non violent to have an advantage, but for now its all about what it's always been about; war and resources.

Please realize that I'm not condoning violence! I fully agree with and support all the wonderful posts regarding the Xris incident and violence in general, I was just trying to shift to an introspection of why it is we are so violent and why it is so easy to react violently. By all means we should attempt to live a peaceful nonviolent existence.

1 Reply

@ogden,

ogden;74538 wrote:

For example: when there are two Eagle chicks and one is bigger, the parents feed it more and it will likely literally kick its sibling out of the nest.

That's only because the smaller chick gets pushed out of the way by the bigger chick and it normally gets pushed out by accident,ie, simply because it's smaller and the other bigger that it just gets squashed, the parents dont purposely feed the bigger chick because it's bigger, they do it because the little one is generally being sat on by the bigger one and it simply cant reach its beak past the bigger one.

1 Reply

@Caroline,

Quote:

I dont think rationally on these occassions, its my weakness,thankfully my rage is only ever directed at those who are inflicting pain on a women or child.I understand your opinion but fortunately it resolved this problem. I did not want to change his attitude i just wanted him to feel pain like he had inflicted pain,the reasoned me came afterwards when I promised to return if he harmed her again.
Id be interested to know what you would do if your life was threatened by violence,would you fight back?

Xris:
I don't disagree with you about your actions on a visceral level. My point was the psychology of most abusers. It is a social fiction of sorts that once they get a taste of their own medicine that they will stop, they will stop for a while, act contrite etc... until they feel the coast is once again clear. Most abusers have a touch of sociopathy, their empathy switch doesn't quite turn all the way on. If they "get what's coming to them" most often they blame it on those they are already abusing, and take it out on them with more ferocity than they already had, and the violence escalates and it becomes more dangerous for the victims. There are two ways to stop it, get the victim away and convince her to want to stay away, or convict the victim legally, both amount to a forced seperation of abuser and victims. If you want to help this woman it would be much better to seek advice from a local abused women's shelter or hotline.

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