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time travel paradox

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Sun 12 Apr, 2009 03:01 pm
@ACB,
ACB wrote:
We tend to hear a lot about totally correct predictions, but less about almost correct ones. I am interested in the latter kind, where one or two details are wrong, because they would provide useful information about the statistical likelihood of the totally correct predictions. For example, if for every fully correct prediction about a car crash there were 10 in which only the colour of the car was wrong, 30 in which the colour of the car and/or its direction of travel were wrong, and so on (and vastly more in which the crash failed to happen at all), we would find nothing odd. If, however, the proportion of incorrect predictions was significantly less, it would be implausible to explain the correct ones as 'pure coincidence'; we would need to look for some other explanation.

Unfortunately, it would be very difficult to obtain an unbiased sample, as incorrect predictions will obviously be under-reported, and many reports of correct ones will be false.
Just work out the odds...try giving me the odds for the green car and my lottery numbers...Since my experience i have discovered many have won the lottery by dreaming the numbers...would you believe your dream or would you ignore it and not gamble ??? Its not science nor is it conclusive but for those who experience them its more than chance..
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Mon 13 Apr, 2009 06:01 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I think the point could be made that even if we dont like the idea the future to a certain degree is written..how much it is , is the question..
Then you know all information there is no randow. For example, if I tell you "guess the secret number", your chances are mostly randow but mine arent because I know the number. In a similar manner, if one knows everthing involved, like some etheral super-mind could, one can make perfect predictions. So we can, yes, say that the future is writen and since we can never know everthing down to the very last detail (I dont think even a super-mind can) we probally should instead say that it is "mostly writen" Smile

mindlink wrote:
I find it easier to believe in the non-linearity of time and in fortune-tellers than to believe that my subconscious has the power to create a blinding snow storm on the highway, to create a green car which slips off the road onto the median, and to create the green car lunging back onto the road right in front of my car, which just happened to be driving in the median-side lane of the divided highway in that particular instance.

mindlink
Well, I think it sounds more likely if you see it this way: Your subscoscient, controlling so many vital functions of your body and probally being able to extract much more information from your senses than you can, had for months been influencing your actions as much as it could in an attempt to make you crash on a green car, until eventually it succeded. How could it do this? Subconsciently influencing you to stick close to green cars while driving and things like that.
mindlink
 
  1  
Mon 13 Apr, 2009 10:38 pm
@manored,
manored wrote:

Well, I think it sounds more likely if you see it this way: Your subscoscient, controlling so many vital functions of your body and probally being able to extract much more information from your senses than you can, had for months been influencing your actions as much as it could in an attempt to make you crash on a green car, until eventually it succeded. How could it do this? Subconsciently influencing you to stick close to green cars while driving and things like that.


Yes, that does sound more likely.

mindlink
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Tue 21 Apr, 2009 07:00 pm
@xris,
Something I once stumbled upon on the original question: WW2 in Color History Forum - View Single Post - Hitler 2005 What if the Nazis had a time travel machine
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Sun 26 Apr, 2009 08:09 am
@xris,
Forward travel in time is possible, but time travel into the past impossible, it is, however, possible to go into the future. The twin paradox is when a spaceman travels at almost the speed of light to a distant star, he will age much slower than his twin brother on earth

The reason for this time moves slower on a massive object than a less massive object. As the spacecraft approached the speed of light it becomes more and more massive, exponentially at that.

Einstein said it is impossible to get up to the speed of light because the object would need all the energy in the universe to do it and time will stand still,It would rip the universe apart

Back to the twins the twin on the earth will age at the normal rate of an earthy being, the twin speeding deep into the cosmos will age much slower, when the spaceman returns, he might find his twin a very old person, or if he had gone far out into the universe at a huge speed he might come back to the earth when humans are long gone on a bleak dead dying ancient unrecognisable planet.
validity
 
  1  
Sun 26 Apr, 2009 11:40 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
The reason for this time moves slower on a massive object than a less massive object. As the spacecraft approached the speed of light it becomes more and more massive, exponentially at that.


The spacecraft does not become more massive. To the viewer on earth the spacecraft appears to gain mass by the fact that it needs more and more energy to move it faster and faster. This more and more energy to move it faster and faster makes the spacecraft appear to be resisting acceleration ie it appears to be gaining mass.

The time dilation is a consequence of the physical distance between the earth and the destination actually contracting in length, from the perspective of the occupants of the spacecraft i.e. the distance between two objects is shorter when you are in motion relative to those two objects.
Jazzman phil
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 12:14 am
@xris,
If no one mentioned it before: Several philosophers thought that time actually doesn't "exist". McTaggart is one example but also Kant didn't "believe" in the reality of time. Today we have very strong scientific arguments that time is a real factor for physics. But the irreality argument doesn't refer to this quality of time but to its character as an itself progressing flow. The time travel paradox stays interesting anyway.
xris
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 03:19 am
@Jazzman phil,
Jazzman wrote:
If no one mentioned it before: Several philosophers thought that time actually doesn't "exist". McTaggart is one example but also Kant didn't "believe" in the reality of time. Today we have very strong scientific arguments that time is a real factor for physics. But the irreality argument doesn't refer to this quality of time but to its character as an itself progressing flow. The time travel paradox stays interesting anyway.
Its because we live for the moment, without memory time has very little consequence.I have watched and listened to those poor souls who have no short term memory.Their experiences of time has no relevance,it is only ever now for them.Because they cant remember they cant visualise the future.Our minds create time by observation and using our imagination.Take away that human concept and we only ever have the moment.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 03:31 am
@validity,
validity wrote:
The spacecraft does not become more massive. To the viewer on earth the spacecraft appears to gain mass by the fact that it needs more and more energy to move it faster and faster. This more and more energy to move it faster and faster makes the spacecraft appear to be resisting acceleration ie it appears to be gaining mass.

The time dilation is a consequence of the physical distance between the earth and the destination actually contracting in length, from the perspective of the occupants of the spacecraft i.e. the distance between two objects is shorter when you are in motion relative to those two objects.
infinite amount of energy would be needed to push it over the threshold. Obviously, there is no known way to achieve infinite energy (though not for lack of trying), and thus there will never be enough energy to push something faster than the speed of light.


The equation above demonstrates energy requirements as velocity increases so also does its mass, as get races faster and or accelerates, object will increase its mass If the object did the impossible and reached the speed of light , it would become both, it would become infinitely massive.



That is the reason why it would require the impossible it would need an infinite amount of energy to move it.


At light speed the space vehicle would almost become a singularity and have infinite mass and energy.


That is my best effort to explain the time dialation effect


Peace Smile


I don't get your second statement??
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 06:34 am
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
Hey, time travel machines are an incredibly unlikely thing. Given that, 1000 suicidal time travellers is incredibly unlikely. Given that, that they all fail is, yes, incredibly unlikely. It seems to me the odds are converging to zero somewhere along the line, and I just don't think it's at the assassination attempt stage. It is impossible that I exist when in the past my future self tried to kill my grandfather... and succeeded. i.e. statistical likelihood = zero. Thus repeating the experiment 100, 1000, 1000000000000000 times makes no difference. Again, not a paradox. A thousand maniacs jumping out of windows and not one of them manages to levitate? Not really a problem.


It is impossible to go back in time and your example shows why it is impossible. The great physicist Richard Feyman postulated that one could go back in time by moving into a parallel universe, where you will find your other self there. This would not effect the time paradox His now famous Feyman diagram. Check it out if you like

Peace
validity
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 05:12 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
It does become more massive and if it did the impossible and got up to the speed of light it would outweigh or become more massive than the entire universe. It is this mass that causes the time dilation effect between the two twins I mentioned in my previous post
There is a significant difference between the time dilation of moving clocks and the time dilation of a clock in a lower gravitational potential. I think you are mistakingly placing the moving spacecraft into the second category.

Alan McDougall wrote:
I don't get your second statement??
In your post you describe "special shrinking". The correct term is length contraction. The time dilation is caused by the physical distance between the origin and destination shortening from the view of the spacecraft but remaining unchanged from the view of the earth. The mass increase of the spacecraft does not cause the time dilation.
Albert Camus
 
  1  
Mon 27 Apr, 2009 09:44 pm
@xris,
hmm what if you go back in time and kill yourself, but as soon as you do that you are still left there to continue in your past selfs spot Smile you killed yourself... but your still their. Then you can go to the future with your old self after killing yourself in the past and kill him and it would be like nothing happend.
xris
 
  1  
Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:29 am
@Albert Camus,
Infinite mass must show that the BB lasted longer than we thought.The greater the mass the slower time moves.Now is that from a perspective of viewing time, from another time?UMMM if we look back at the start of the universe how do we judge the speed of time? are we just observing movement, not the speed of movement?But then when your actually at that point in time do you recognise the difference in the speed of time or does it by human experience appear the same?If i watch a train going extremely fast i only realise that by my perspective.If i was on the train with the curtains drawn, i would not know of my speed.Time is an illusion .
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Tue 28 Apr, 2009 01:28 pm
@Albert Camus,
Albert Camus wrote:
hmm what if you go back in time and kill yourself, but as soon as you do that you are still left there to continue in your past selfs spot Smile you killed yourself... but your still their. Then you can go to the future with your old self after killing yourself in the past and kill him and it would be like nothing happend.
You are forgetting your "future" self is your "past" self. In the moment you killed yourself in the past, it would become impossible for you to have returned to the past just like you just did, because you were killed before that, and here lies the paradox.

Time is not an ilusion, it is just something relative.
Albert Camus
 
  1  
Tue 28 Apr, 2009 02:24 pm
@manored,
manored wrote:
You are forgetting your "future" self is your "past" self. In the moment you killed yourself in the past, it would become impossible for you to have returned to the past just like you just did, because you were killed before that, and here lies the paradox.

Time is not an ilusion, it is just something relative.


Well my thinking is, your future self goes back in time yes. You kill yourself thus making your life no longer here. BUT you are still their, you only killed another you living at the same time, and in the same place as you, you could probably survive by taking his place and role, and then continuing on in your life? but then I would think you would be trapped in an everlasting time loop.
No0ne
 
  1  
Tue 28 Apr, 2009 03:10 pm
@Albert Camus,
It's theoretical demensional travel due to the fact that for there to be a 1933 to physicaly revist after creation of 1933, all physical and mental action's that had happend in 1933 must still physicaly exist at this present momment, and therefore if such still physicaly exist at this present momment it must exist in another seperated demension due to oveous visual, mental, and physical conflicts that would happen if a present momment of 1933 and this present momment physicaly existed as one perceivable demension.

So if you where to travel to a present momment of 1933, you would not be able to effect the present momment you had came from due to the demensions are seperated. (this is also true if you where to go into a future present momment.)
0 Replies
 
manored
 
  1  
Wed 29 Apr, 2009 09:52 am
@Albert Camus,
Albert Camus wrote:
Well my thinking is, your future self goes back in time yes. You kill yourself thus making your life no longer here. BUT you are still their, you only killed another you living at the same time, and in the same place as you, you could probably survive by taking his place and role, and then continuing on in your life? but then I would think you would be trapped in an everlasting time loop.
No matter how well you did the thing, it would never be the exactly same than if the guy had lived on and travelled back in time, what means the guy who came back in time would have to be a bit different, and here is the paradox again.

Imagine a guy running for a time machine. He reaches it in five seconds. Then he goes back in time five seconds, shots his past self and enters the time machine before him. This is impossible because he is not the same than his past self: He is, for example, a bit older. How would he always be only five seconds older in the loop if ever time he gains some seconds of age?

You could go to a future present moment just by moving very fast around till the world's age changed to what you need. No complicated time bendings necessary! Unless you want to go back, that is Smile
No0ne
 
  1  
Wed 29 Apr, 2009 12:41 pm
@xris,
Topic: Time & Change
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:uzqT7kIkTdYmNM:http://pro.corbis.com/images/CRB001570.jpg%3Fsize%3D67%26uid%3D%257B92EE5B58-0F5B-489B-B1BF-B6011D8F328E%257D
Blissfull it be, thee sands that composeth thee land where I stand, yet where will be thee past path of me? Behind or ahead of me?

Ends where it begins and begins where it ends...
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Wed 29 Apr, 2009 09:13 pm
@xris,
Perhaps the resolution is to not confuse movement/travel etc through the spatial dimensions with movement/travel etc through the temporal dimension.

Has it become apparent that there is a need to have differentiation between what is meant by movement through space and movement through time, since the term movement in this case has two distinct meanings i.e. it is wrong to say movement through time as we can not move/travel through time the same way as we move through space, specifically backwards or sideways.

It is more proper to say " we advance with/in/through (who knows which) time"
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Fri 1 May, 2009 04:37 pm
@validity,
validity wrote:
There is a significant difference between the time dilation of moving clocks and the time dilation of a clock in a lower gravitational potential. I think you are mistakingly placing the moving spacecraft into the second category.

In your post you describe "special shrinking". The correct term is length contraction. The time dilation is caused by the physical distance between the origin and destination shortening from the view of the spacecraft but remaining unchanged from the view of the earth. The mass increase of the spacecraft does not cause the time dilation.


Respectfully you are incorrect on every point, please check out mass/speed/time dilation on the web and come back I could give links but Justin likes us to preferably write our own stuff

Special shrinking is an accepted term in astrophysics, check it out
 

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