Defining Evil

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Technically, this thread isn't about instinct. You opened another thread about instinct and evil located here, (post merged into this one).

Has religion created good? By the mere definition of the world today, I fail to see what good Religion has created. But again, that's not the subject, defining evil is.

Likewise, you define evil based on your religious beliefs, I define evil based on my philosophy and they define evil based on whatever trips their trigger. There are two separate threads here about evil, one of them either needs to be closed or you need to clarify what it is we're talking about. Having two threads about basically the same thing is nothing but confusing.

Furthermore, we are not creatures of instinct so why would we be discussing animal instinct related to something man has created to begin with. The animals aren't evil, the only evil in the world is what man has created.

I don't care what this book or that book say or what this guy or that guy has written, it is what it is and we're the ones that have not only written the books but created the evil as we perceive it... and Religion has been one of the greatest scapegoats for evil and the most effective blindfold in all of history.

Our thoughts are the source. We can look at and identify all the effects of our thoughts but when dealing with the cause it's important to know what the cause is. Religion is an effect of the thinking and creation of man. The cause is man. We're the evil ones, not the animal that kills it's prey out of instinct.

It's difficult to define the cause in a world where everyone is wearing blindfolds.

2 Replies

@Justin,

It was supposed to be about Instinct. "Somebody" lumped the threads together because they thought it was the same thread.
And Instinct is not based on Religious beleif. If I were to define Evil based on the Jewish Beleif I would begin speaking about the realm called "The other side" which consists of every possible evil and destruction. This is opposed to the realm of Holiness which is the realm of all possible Good and perfection. And when Evil comes into the world we are taking one of the possibilities and bringing it into the world.
I am speaking about Instinct which is a theory I began playing around with before I became religious and the fact that I found support for it within Jewish thought and Kabalistic writings is besides the point.
If it's true, then religion won't make it false.

And if you had bothered to read my previous posts

Quote:

Instincts are not intrinsically Evil

And yes, we are animals. At least a part of us is anyways. Both Scientifically and Textually. So to ignore our animal instincts and say that they are not there is a little un-scientific if you ask me.

And I will repeat
Religion is not the cause of Evil, it is a medium for it.
As you say, "Man Created Religion" so therefore Man is the source of Evil and not Religion. So what is it in Man that brings about evil?

What is Man? You, Justin, say that it is Man that is evil. So what is man?

According to modern day science, "Man" is an evolved animal. I agree that we are more, and it is this "more" that can deny our animal side when it leads us to "evil".

Read the thread please

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

It was supposed to be about Instinct. "Somebody" lumped the threads together because they thought it was the same thread.

Well, these were lumped together because you created two threads that were of the same topic. Do us a favor and do not open threads with the same topic title and this type of confusion will not happen. Lets focus on one topic at a time.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

And Instinct is not based on Religious beleif. If I were to define Evil based on the Jewish Beleif I would begin speaking about the realm called "The other side" which consists of every possible evil and destruction. This is opposed to the realm of Holiness which is the realm of all possible Good and perfection. And when Evil comes into the world we are taking one of the possibilities and bringing it into the world.
I am speaking about Instinct which is a theory I began playing around with before I became religious and the fact that I found support for it within Jewish thought and Kabalistic writings is besides the point.
If it's true, then religion won't make it false.

Man creates with his or her mind, not out of instinct. Man has evolved consciously through the ages to discover that we are not people of instinct but people of creativity. The "other side" you speak of is pure mythology.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

And yes, we are animals. At least a part of us is anyways. Both Scientifically and Textually. So to ignore our animal instincts and say that they are not there is a little un-scientific if you ask me.

No, I disagree completely. We are not animals. We are the furthest thing from animals that one could define. This is where it gets confusing because, technically, the less we are aware of the "kingdom of heaven" in the center of creation and likewise the center of man, the more separate we are and thus the more animalistic we are.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

And I will repeat
Religion is not the cause of Evil, it is a medium for it.
As you say, "Man Created Religion" so therefore Man is the source of Evil and not Religion. So what is it in Man that brings about evil?

Man's thoughts and perception bring about evil. Religion isn't the cause but it's an effect which is a cause which is another effect.

Duality and separation are the cause of evil. The perceptions of man enable the manifestation of the evil perceived. Likewise the more we focus on removing evil from the world the more evil we create. It's like a double edged sword.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

What is Man? You, Justin, say that it is Man that is evil. So what is man?

This is another topic and many of us have already discussed this in the past. Simply, Man is not body, Man is spirit.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

According to modern day science, "Man" is an evolved animal. I agree that we are more, and it is this "more" that can deny our animal side when it leads us to "evil".

I agree that we evolve consciously and I further think we evolve towards the knowing we are all a chip off the same block. Man's evolution is more of a spiritual knowing than it is a physical evolution. It's not the animal side that leads us to evil, it's our thoughts that create the manifestation of evil to the measure of the duality and separation we perceive. Religion is the "head of this beast" per say.

[INDENT]For the record, these two threads that were referred to were merged together. We apologize for any of the confusion about this. We will go through and remove all the instances where these threads were linked because the link is a dead one.

Please let's not start two topics with the same or very similar headings.[/INDENT]

1 Reply

@ariciunervos,

I'll respond to the original post. I have read the thread, I've even deleted a couple posts that were considered flaming towards other members.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

I dont mean to offend you, but your reply is a simple one. King Solomon says "Who is Righteous? The one who knows his Evil"
So clearly this simple answer is not enough to be Righteous. Actually I went into the trouble of defining evil and your simpleton answer is quite insulting.

The above was apologized for but similar posts like the above were made towards other members and were deleted. Simple answers weren't necessarily meant to be an insult or righteous. This is not a righteous forum, it's a philosophy forum.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

God = Good (they are one and the same)
God is described as Good (this is one of his Qualities)
God is a part of Good (Good is made up of many components and God is one of them)

You can say God is the source of Good
But God is the source of everything, so therefore he must be the source of Good.
God is also the source of evil for that matter. Evil is a creation like any other but it serves a necissary purpose to creation.

Who is he? God?

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

In hebrew there are too words for Good
"Tov" and "Keddai"
"Keddai" means something is good for you.
Example: It is "Keddai" that you dont insult the intelligence of other people by posting a simpleton message.

Again, the only insult given here is the insult given by yourself towards another member of this forum. If it continues you'll be searching for another forum. Attack the message but don't insult the members of this forum! Kapeish?

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Then you go and make a blanket statement saying "Everything Else is Evil"
What does that mean?
I am not God, therefore I am Evil?
The rock outside must be evil because it is not God.

What if you are God? According to your religion, isn't man created in the image of God? Could we the experience of God?

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

The Torah states "There is nothing other than Him"
So if everything is Him then everything must be Good and there must not actually be any Evil at all!

According to the Torah you've quoted above, if there is nothing other than God then we are God and God is in everything created. Maybe we are actually God but divided and separated by our thinking and thus creating evil.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

What about actions. There are many non-beleivers that go and do Good actions all the time. They don't do it for the sake of God, does that make all of their actions evil?
If I did 100 random actions what are the chances that one of them will be good and one of them will be evil?

What are good actions. Your good actions as provided by example in this thread may not be considered good actions by others. Do good to yourself and good will be returned. According to the Torah, as quoted above if there is only God then there is also only good.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

What is Evil?
Evil is the Essence behind Evil action.

In other words Evil is the influence that causes Evil outcomes to Occur.

Evil is created by the separation of man from God. Building God to be something outside of man which again, you quoted the Torah as saying "There is nothing other than Him".

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

All creatures must desire survival in order to Survive. Survival is what promotes evolution. Thus all Creatures that are alive today Desire Survival. Creatures that do not desire survival will die out and not survive.

There are 3 Root desires in survival

1. Desire for Nutrition
2. Desire for Reproduction
3. Desire to Avoid Harm (until successful reproduction occurs)

These 3 root desires further branch out into desires that promote the roots

1.Nutrition
Selfishness is an instinctual desire because those that are not selfish do not survive.
Hunger is an instinctual desire that promotes nutrition.

2. Reproduction
Sexual Desire is necissary for reproduction. Animals without an instinctual sexual desire do not reproduce and do not survive.

Alpha Male instinct is necissary to higher animal reproduction.
In the animal kingdom, only the Alpha male reproduces. Thus in order to reproduce an animal must be the Alpha male. Thus all animals must have the desire to be the Alpha male in order to Reproduce.
(Lions, Roosters, Monkeys... ETC)

The Alpha Male is usually establish through an Alpha battle. The Strongest male usually wins the battle and therefore the strongest seed is passed on to the next generation.

3. Avoiding Harm
Fear and Anger
Fear of Death survies
Anger comes to fight off threats

This is all desires of the flesh and earthly desires of a man separate from God. If God and Man were separate entities, I could see the reasoning but I don't believe they are. I believe the only separation is in our system of thinking.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Territorial instincts are connected to all 3
Territory for Nutrition, Territory for Reproduction, and Territory for Safety.

Instincts are not intrinsically evil but can lead to evil. One that wants Alpha status may do evil in order to attain that status and to Keep it. Megalomaniacs. Building weapons and stronger armies can be for Safety Purposes or for Alpha superiority purposes.

Bull****. Again, this is a worldly desire. This is separation.

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

This is a brief explanation for the sake of the Forum.
Speak to me about receiving a copy of my book if you are interested in a more in-depth study and I will send you a PDF version or feel free to ask questions and I will gladly answer them

Based on everything you've written within this thread, I'd contemplate it and revise it and fine-tune it some more before publishing a book. Actually, please give us more information on the book, like the title and maybe we could all read it and give some good input.

Bin, thanks for your thoughts. I'm not attacking you in this thread I'm just pointing out some things that I have to question. More posts and explanation would be good for all of us.

Let's keep this thread clean from attacking or insulting each other as we all have much to learn from one another.

2 Replies

@Solace,

Solace wrote:

I'll reply to this here, because my reply is more suited to the religion section of this forum than to metaphysics.

To define evil I will first define good. God is good. Everything else is evil.

Can we help being evil though. We kill or hunt to eat. Would that be considered evil. It would to the animal but what about to us?

1 Reply

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

I'll respond to the original post.

This was not the original post it was a response to someone who oversimplified my original post and disreguarded all that I was trying to bring forward through this simplification.

I was talking about instinct and he said "everything that is not God is evil"

Justin wrote:

Again, the only insult given here is the insult given by yourself towards another member of this forum. If it continues you'll be searching for another forum. Attack the message but don't insult the members of this forum! Kapeesh?

Why did you bring this post? Cant you read the word "Example"? And this is not the place for you to try and reprimand me. In fact the only reason that I would want to leave this forum is because of its horrible administration. What kind of Administration would reduce a reputation (that I care nothing about) because he disagrees with me. But you can also just erase this post if you dont like it. But of course this is not the place to be speaking to one another about this but if you would like to show your "Alpha" superiority over me to the entire forum then please kick me out. I am not the type to be swayed into backing out of an "Alpha battle".

Justin wrote:

What if you are God?

I am not God and neither are you. Saying such a thing is a complete misunderstanding of the Limitless. I, by definition, am limited and thus cannot be God. But this is not a post about God, I was merely responding to a single person.. this was not the intended topic. It was a reply. But thanks for bringing it anyway, out of context and then commenting on my "behaviour". Why dont I comment on this behaviour that you are exhibiting right now.
But of course you made a "disclaimer later in your post

Justin wrote:

I'm not attacking you in this thread I'm just pointing out some things that I have to question.
...
Let's keep this thread clean from attacking or insulting each other as we all have much to learn from one another

But of course you still use words like

Justin wrote:

Bull****. Again, this is a worldly desire. This is separation

Justin wrote:

According to the Torah you've quoted above, if there is nothing other than God then we are God and God is in everything created.

I also brought a quote from the Gemara, "God is not a place in the world, but the world is a place in Him"
God is not in us, but we are a part of Him. But again, this topic was not intended to speak about God.

Justin wrote:

What are good actions. Your good actions as provided by example in this thread may not be considered good actions by others. Do good to yourself and good will be returned. According to the Torah, as quoted above if there is only God then there is also only good.

Are you trying to teach me morality here? I'm sure we've all learned from experience that if you do good, it's not done back to you. Besides I don't beleive in the "Cruisified God" and I dont turn the other cheek.
I beleive in defending oneself. Besides, who are you to repremand me when you are doing the same thing?
Are we speaking about forum behaviour here? Or are we speaking about Evil? Maybe I should report this as being off topic to the Administration?

Justin wrote:

Evil is created by the separation of man from God. Building God to be something outside of man which again, you quoted the Torah as saying "There is nothing other than Him".

Answered the flaw in this understanding earlier in the quote.

Justin wrote:

This is all desires of the flesh and earthly desires of a man separate from God. If God and Man were separate entities, I could see the reasoning but I don't believe they are. I believe the only separation is in our system of thinking.

Finally you bring the quote of the topic. This is the original post and here is your answer to it. But of course we will turn it into a matter of God.

Yes, these are "Animal" Desires. That is the purpose. We all have these desires. And obviously someone who does "Evil" is in some way seperated from God, as the prophet says "Your sins separate you from God".

We are not discussing Good, here, and being at a level known as "Devekut" in hebrew which means being completely connected. This is a very high level. We are however discussing the Animal side which holds one back from Good. As King David writes "Turn from Evil and do Good".

We are discussing the "Turn from Evil" aspect. You will find, that these earthly desires of the flesh, can be used to motivate us and drive us in doing Good. This is the "Do Good" aspect.

So the purpose of this thread is discussing something that Atheists can also join in on. It is discussing human instinct and how it can lead us as Mankind to "Evil"

Justin wrote:

Based on everything you've written within this thread, I'd contemplate it and revise it and fine-tune it some more before publishing a book.

Tell me was this meant to be an insult? Because I wrote myself.

Quote:

This is a brief explanation for the sake of the Forum.

Would you like to discuss it or not? I would be happy to discuss it with you and call this "Alpha Battle" off. We all know that you are superior here. You are the Administrator. You can edit my posts and Kick me out of the Forum. But in the realm of thought we are equals. And discussions should not be trying to prove the other person wrong, or disgracing them, or even trying to prove yourself to be right. They should be trying to get to the truth.

0 Replies

@MITech,

MITech wrote:

Can we help being evil though. We kill or hunt to eat. Would that be considered evil. It would to the animal but what about to us?

That question has been debated here a lot.
I still maintain yes. We do not have to chose what our instincts influence us to decide.

1 Reply

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Well I can see why people are vegetarians these days. Killing animals is cruel but then again how are we going to survive. In a sence we are all evil.

0 Replies

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Bin,
Let me ask you a very simple question. A tenant is layed off his job because of a serious illness. He is unable to work and falls behind on his rent and the landlord, kicks him out on the street. Is there "evil" in this scenario? If so, who is evil, the tenant or the landlord?

William

1 Reply

@Justin,

I hope I'm not shooting myself in the foot by stepping in here, Justin, but I think the misunderstanding that Binyamin and I had starting this thread has been worked out between us. In his defense it was one of his earliest posts here, and I can come across as being terribly condescending sometimes, I know that, even when it isn't my intention.

0 Replies

@William,

William wrote:

Bin,
Let me ask you a very simple question. A tenant is layed off his job because of a serious illness. He is unable to work and falls behind on his rent and the landlord, kicks him out on the street. Is there "evil" in this scenario? If so, who is evil, the tenant or the landlord?

William

The illness itself is evil. The tenant nor the landlord is evil because the landlord has the right to boot the tenant out of there because he is not paying rent.

1 Reply

@MITech,

MITech wrote:

The illness itself is evil. The tenant nor the landlord is evil because the landlord has the right to boot the tenant out of there because he is not paying rent.

In all due respect, I just have no Earthly idea of how to even respond to that. Please, if you don't mind, don't try to convince me otherwise, ok. Thanks.

william

0 Replies

@Binyamin Tsadik,

I've sent Bin a PM.

Quote:

Would you like to discuss it or not? I would be happy to discuss it with you and call this "Alpha Battle" off. We all know that you are superior here. You are the Administrator. You can edit my posts and Kick me out of the Forum. But in the realm of thought we are equals. And discussions should not be trying to prove the other person wrong, or disgracing them, or even trying to prove yourself to be right. They should be trying to get to the truth.

I'd like to discuss this. There is no battle, I just ask that you respect others in this forum. If you can publicly belittle someone in this forum then expect it to publicly be brought to your attention.

I'm not superior at all and I don't see it that way. I do and will enforce the rules and guidelines to maintain a level of quality within this forum. People need to be able to respond without the fear of being verbally beaten down. This happens all too often in other forums. Someone has to maintain and enforce certain rules.

Just because someone disagrees, their post will not be deleted and has never been. Isn't truth what most of us are after?

Why don't you do me a favor since this thread is so darn confusing. PM me the post number of the posts that don't belong here and we'll change the thread title to reflect what this is really about and find a suitable place for the others. This number is on each post in the top right of the post. I'll go through sort these out.

And no, I wasn't insulting your book I was offering a suggestion and there's a lot of good minds on this forum that would be willing to offer opinions.

1 Reply

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

there's a lot of good minds on this forum that would be willing to offer opinions.

I agree...
going to pm you with the info soon

0 Replies

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

Well, these were lumped together because you created two threads that were of the same topic.

They were obviously not the same topic if you said earlier

Justin wrote:

Technically, this thread isn't about instinct. You opened another thread about instinct and evil located here, (post merged into this one).

0 Replies

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

This is another topic and many of us have already discussed this in the past. Simply, Man is not body, Man is spirit.

Man is a combination of both. This is where the struggle lies. This is what gives us free will.

0 Replies

@Solace,

Binyamin Tsadik;25695 wrote:

What is Evil?
Evil is the Essence behind Evil action.

In other words Evil is the influence that causes Evil outcomes to Occur.

What is the Evil Influence?

All creatures must desire survival in order to Survive. Survival is what promotes evolution. Thus all Creatures that are alive today Desire Survival. Creatures that do not desire survival will die out and not survive.

There are 3 Root desires in survival

1. Desire for Nutrition
2. Desire for Reproduction
3. Desire to Avoid Harm (until successful reproduction occurs)

These 3 root desires further branch out into desires that promote the roots

1.Nutrition
Selfishness is an instinctual desire because those that are not selfish do not survive.
Hunger is an instinctual desire that promotes nutrition.

2. Reproduction
Sexual Desire is necissary for reproduction. Animals without an instinctual sexual desire do not reproduce and do not survive.

Alpha Male instinct is necissary to higher animal reproduction.
In the animal kingdom, only the Alpha male reproduces. Thus in order to reproduce an animal must be the Alpha male. Thus all animals must have the desire to be the Alpha male in order to Reproduce.
(Lions, Roosters, Monkeys... ETC)

The Alpha Male is usually establish through an Alpha battle. The Strongest male usually wins the battle and therefore the strongest seed is passed on to the next generation.

3. Avoiding Harm
Fear and Anger
Fear of Death survies
Anger comes to fight off threats

Territorial instincts are connected to all 3
Territory for Nutrition, Territory for Reproduction, and Territory for Safety

Instincts are not intrinsically evil but can lead to evil. One that wants Alpha status may do evil in order to attain that status and to Keep it. Megalomaniacs. Building weapons and stronger armies can be for Safety Purposes or for Alpha superiority purposes.

This is a brief explanation for the sake of the Forum.
Speak to me about receiving a copy of my book if you are interested in a more in-depth study and I will send you a PDF version or feel free to ask questions and I will gladly answer them

Fascinating thought... But what if evil isn't all that bad?

0 Replies

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Hello Ares,
and welcome to the forum. You make an assumption that is worthy of asking what, pray tell, is it from your perception and the knowledge you have gathered other than what this particular post offers, compels you to make such an assumption?

Thanks,
William

1 Reply

@William,

William;77462 wrote:

Hello Ares,
and welcome to the forum. You make an assumption that is worthy of asking what, pray tell, is it from your perception and the knowledge you have gathered other than what this particular post offers, compels you to make such an assumption?

Thanks,
William

A bit of both, actually. I have long seen that the conventional definitions of good and evil are quite incorrect in my view. However, this post defines evil as following your instincts, perhaps to an extreme, but still, you're only doing what you are naturally compelled to do. So how can one be considered evil for following their natural desires?

It seems that morality and value usually deal with putting a choke hold on our natural desires such as love, lust, sex, gluttony, greed, selfishness... It seems that with our reasoning we have somehow reasoned that nature is doing it wrong and well... that is quite unreasonable.

0 Replies

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Evil is merely the absence of good, just as cold is merely the absence of heat. "Cold" and "Evil" are merely tags we apply to the supposed opposites of good and hot.

Or maybe it's the other way around?

Of course to establish what is good or evil we need to have a system to judge off of. I myself choose to believe (at this stage in my life anyway) that there are no good or bad actions - just actions.

1 Reply

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