why religion makes no sense? please respond

Solace, can you not see that I was making an ad hominem attack (which is all it deserves) on a position which you clearly do not even hold? Good lord, man. Based on what you've posted in other threads here, you clearly believe in some kind of free will.

What greater force is this? I have never experienced it. If I have I do not know it, if I haven't then I will deny it until it has been revelaed to me. I do not think I am any lower than any other human, but I do think that humans have an incurable hubris in their quest towards understanding.

If you murder someone, then they are dead, and only if they are dead have you murdered them. What you have said is entirely false. I would be charged with attempted murder or some degree of assult if they did not die, thus if I went back out and killed them I would be charged with murder. Also, double jeopardy does not apply to separate instances, that is patently false. Only if I had tried to murder someone and been found innocent, but then new evidence came out that implicated me, could I be protected by double jeopardy.


You have entierly misunderstood my post, so please, allow me to further expaciate upon it. I believe that compassion should come froum understanding of the shared human condition rather than it be contingent upon a religious belief, granting that you must believe that the human condition exists. I have drawn my conclusions on the lack of a definite point and direction to life from long periods of introspection, and I hold fast to them. I make my own point to life and live in a manner which suits me. In knowing that we are all like sysiphus, that we are all doomed to the same fate, I find compassion for my fellow man. My love comes from this compassion, which comes from my understanding of the huamn condition. This is my source of justification, my self manufactured set of beliefs which seems to me to hold logically.

I'll grant "some kind of free will" I suppose. But a limited one, and not total free will. We think, we do make certain decisions, but there are other decisions that we simply can't make. We're more like little kids with controlling parents than mindless robots.

And make no mistake; I'm loathe to even give us that much credit.

It sounds like we essentially agree. Except for perhaps Sartre, I don't know if any thinking person would deny that man's free will is constrained within a narrow band of possible choices, with or without divine will. Something fruitful may come from questioning just how free our will really is (and on this point we seem to disagree), but that's another matter.

Personally, I think the power of choice can lead to huge changes in our lives and, ultimately, our characters, as well, but perhaps this is because I haven't followed the beaten path much.

god does exist but not in the way u think. he is everything and everyone that surrounds u he is ure life there is no denying that . there is such a thing as free will but god and demons know your future. the demons were given the knowledge of the future to make them feel safe to do whatever they want there was a plan. i fell to a world where death exists, gold has value. when me and another person get close like really close we make demons run for their lives ive actually seen people on live tv shudder and act like chickens because i told them to. this might sound weird but its my life. ive grown up with nothing but death surrounding me and demons sexually molesting me several times every night for about 4 years is this my mind playing tricks on me. ive grown with nothing more than revenge on my mind and it will be mine. even if they claim to know the future their bodies exist in the present which i own, i bought and i payed for to say that i will produce nothing but love is stupid for that is not what i was created to do i will bring the world to order and we shall see the gold shine.

uummm... ratta, was this posted with any sort of seriousness?

I mean, gold has value? How ridiculous! :sarcastic:

would you say my blurbs cast serious doubt on world religions?

random or planned how can it be good?

and what would be an alternative if our actions are NOT random or planned.

what determines how we act?

No offense lord shorty, but nothing that anyone says on a website is going to cast serious doubt into anyone's mind about world religions. People are gonna continue to believe whatever they want, whether or not it makes sense to someone else.

none taken

i think that is not true

there must be sometihng that one can tell a believer to cause them to doubt

given that the person understands what you tell them

i have not seen my particular angle discussed any where

i would love to see if other philosophers or thinkers have discussed it.

what is the answer?

when taking human action or the action of entire reality (god not included) into consideration

is it random or planned?

and how does either way make sense and seem "good" in the ocntext of christian or islamic "reality views"

by the way when looked at like htis the greek and african religions make WAY more sense.

What do you mean? The views vary so greatly. There is no such thing as Christian or Islamic views of reality. Each tradition contains a plethora of views.



How so? Do the eastern traditions make any less sense? Do the western traditions make any less sense, and in what way?

No single faith tradition is monolithic. All traditions offer a variety of understandings.

i am looking at how they do not make sense based on the context of the similarities they possess as exemplified and explained in the first two posts of this thread.

islam and xianity require people toi make a decision or action of some kind, yet they are also created beings

so does the creator know what they will do or not? does he plan it, is it random? is it something else?

greek religion and some african (as well as some eastern systems) are more open to ultimate mystery.

in xianity and islam the hard core believers like to think they are pondering deep mysteries but ultimately its a very very cookie cutter system

mystic traditions of these two semetic religions (as well as jewish mysticism) are open to more ultimate mystery.

And the problem is that Christian views are not monolithic; different sects have different views. Same is true of the other faith traditions - you get as many different answers as there are individual believers.

thye are monolithic in the instance i am talking about. the requirement of a created being to do the right thing to get salvation/heaven/enlightenemnt.

FOR THE MOST PART most christians and muslims will agree with this

Right, they will agree that people should treat others well.

Understandings of "created being", however, vary, as do views on the nature of the creator. Not to mention the variety of understands as to what heaven, ect means.

you not getting it

well my mind works in different ways i value love before gold, if my house burns down i can better see the moon. i know god very well and i know he does things for a reason i believe that the world is not fully formed yet with loads of spirits running loose. but if we suffer on we will own the world and it will be a place were death exists but it cannot harm us evil which was once the dominant attitude will be a laughing stock and we shall laugh at them for forever more and they will rage but with no affect on us they help us to build the world but they claim to own it yet we do all the work therefore this is our past just as life gets stronger as it grows, we have a long very long future a head of us and im still building but when im finished the world will be mine. psyche.

Spirituality and Philosophy are one thing, but how do they relate to action. Religion takes spirituality and brings it into the world of action. What it all comes down to is our behaviour. None of the Commandments say "You must beleive in God". They all discuss action and what is moral and what is not. This is the role of Law.

I, as a Jew, would like to clarify what religion is.
The Torah was given by the limitless to a Nation. It was National Law for over 1000 years. There was no such thing as religion.
The Sages, in their wisdom, foresaw that Israel would be sent into exile and transformed the National Laws into a Religion so that the Nation would not die in Exile. The intent was so that when the Nation returns to its National form, the Laws will not be forgotten and can be re-established as National Law.

Religion was a temporary condition. The entire purpose of Law is so that society can function without problems provided that people follow the law. All Nations have laws, and provided that you obey the National Laws, you are considered a Good person.

It all boils down to action.

Thus when discussing Religion, you should be discussing actions and what actions are correct and moral and which ones are false and immoral.

When discussing spirituality and the Limitless creator, there are also truths and falsehoods in serving him and making his name great. A person does not need to convert in order to accept spiritual truth.
The entire idea of conversion is not a religious conversion. It is a National conversion. The same way that the U.S.A. aquires new citizens that want to be a part of it. Israel established conversions so that others may join the nation. But one does not need to convert to understand spiritual truths or be a good person. The difference is that when you convert to a Nation, you must follow the rules of that specific nation. Example: A Canadian who converts to America must wait until 21 to drink. This is action. Israel cannot force the entire world to follow its laws, they can only impose laws on their own Nation. This is why it is not encouraged to convert to Israel. Because the laws are far more difficult to keep. Why would a 19 year old Canadian convert to U.S.A. if he places a great value on drinking. (He should wait till he is 21 to convert)

There are 3 types of relationships

Man with others
Man with God
and Man with Himself

National Law dictates Man with others
Man with God is dictated by spiritual beleifs
And Man with Himself is personal improvement and working on ones character traits.

Speaking about Man with God is a complicated subject. But when Man tries to understand the Limitless from his own limited reason, he will surely fail and make many mistakes. This is called Theologizing.

The Talmud says "If only they had forgotten about me and kept the commandments, its light would have lead them back to me"

This quote speaks about people who act improperly and beleive in God. The limitless says "It is better that they forget about me and act properly".

Q: Why religion makes no sense? please respond

It makes sense.

Homo Sapiens. The knowing man. Gifted with reason and intelligence. :sarcastic:

You'd figure that intelligence would allow existence along with the concept of uncertainty or the inexplicable. Unfortunately that doesn't happen.

Man's mind doesn't like uncertainty or the inexplicable. Its nature is to see patterns and explanations in everything.
When Man wakes up in the morning He likes things to be precisely where He wants them to be. From his conscious mind's point of view He likes to be on top of things and to have control and understanding of things around Him.

But eclipses, earthquakes, the movement of the planets and other such phenomena are out of His control.

As long as Man had inexplicable phenomena in His observable surroundings, like fire from lightning, earthquakes, etc, his mind brought in invisible, conscious forces (like itself) into existence. He had to, in order to explain those phenomena. Those forces were gods.

Until the moment Man can explain essentially every single question He can pose, there will be a psychological need of gods, because every question needs an answer. It's how the mind works. It needs explanations, even if as illogical, invisible and unprovable as gods. Gods are the default answer to questions reason or science can't answer. Gods were the answer to lightning and fire, floods and droughts, planets and the sun, life and evolution. Then science stepped in and provided better answers.

Gods' role is getting smaller by the day.

But until there is a good answer for every thing Man's mind will wonder about, it will believe in gods. Why ? It's its nature to do so. "If I can't explain something it must be the doing of an older, smarter, more experienced, more intelligent being".

Belief in a more powerful being makes sense. Man is more intelligent than any other beast on this planet, yet he can't control or understand many phenomena. Like lightning or fire or the creation of the planet he lives on (in the past) or the creation of the Universe (in present times).

To me it seems Man hasn't learned anything from His history. In the beginning He thought gods made the sky bright with lightning and made fire where it hit the Earth. Today if you think lightning is godly... well... you're nuts.

So what if we don't have answers to "Who or what created everything, who created life, who created Man". For all Man knows, everything existed forever, life appeared by accident and Man evolved from unicellular beings. That's as good for an answer as "gods made it all be by clapping his hands". But He doesn't know either for sure. Until He does, his mind needs gods. His mind needs them because it's the smartest thing on this planet we know about and yet it can't explain things. `Therefore smarter, more powerful beings, must exist`.

Funny, isn't it ? There will be gods until Man has all the answers. What will be God's reason to be then ?

Ya know, some people actually believe that scientific answers for the evolution of man and the creation of the universe are quite reasonable and acceptable. Yet we also believe that God exists. God doesn't need a reason to be. Either God is or isn't. It might have been better to ask, "What will be man's reason to believe in God once he has all the answers?" But that question would be equally moot, because man will never have all the answers. It's like what the fellow before you said, you can't understand the limitless with limited reason. Well, we're never going to run out of questions, so we can't ever have all the answers.

It must be said that for some belief in God isn't about solving answers at all. In fact, believing in God usually causes people more questions than answers. Take a look around this forum; you'll find a whole host of questions about the nature of God here. If you eliminate God from your belief system, then you eliminate all of those questions about God as well. So pawning off the reason for why people believe in God as being that they simply seek to answer questions certainly isn't looking at the whole picture.

[edit:spelling]
Solace.

My logic is : Man imagined gods to explain phenomena He could not understand back in the (cavemen) time, to mention a few, earthquakes and eclipses. Due to the nature of His mind, Man can NOT accept an answer like "I'm unable to explain this at this moment let's leave it at that for the time being". Consequently, He brought in gods. I'm talking here about the old imagined gods, not the One invented by today's Churches.

So my question is, if Man had had a good explanation back in the day about said phenomena (meteorologic and geologic events, origin of life, planet, cosmology) would supernatural forces still had been imagined ?

More so, would the Israeli people still have had grounds to spread a belief based on "this guy went up a mountain and came back with God's word" in this situation ? Probably not, because Man would have had already known about His (not so divine in nature) Genesis. The only useful purpose of the invented religion would be its moral recommendations (don't steal, etc), but the notion of heaven and hell created along with the earth wouldn't stand, so no punishment would be in effect for breaking the commandments.

So why would gods still be imagined by Man ? Because no matter how much Man knows, no matter how certain he is about existential truths and no matter how much evidence there is to suggest there is no need for gods, Man still needs gods.

Inherently, Man's mind is defective. Man feels inferior to his surroundings. He can't control death, hurricanes, floods. He is at the mercy of a superior force which he chooses to identify it with gods.

Said gods also provide emotional and affective support. After floods, hurricanes or earthquakes are over people say "Thank God it's over" (yet they never thank their god for bringing the calamities in the first place). Also to add, we have "God help us", "God bless you", "Godspeed", "There is no atheist in a foxhole".

Clearly Man's belief in Himself isn't strong enough, He needs outside support from a superior power. In history, warriors thought gods of war would augument their strength and stamina if they make sacrifices. Agricultural communities/cultures would worship other gods to make sure they get good crops, etcetera.

Is it that gods were imagined because Man doesn't have enough faith in Himself ?