A fratcal..WHAT!

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Well what might at first seem completely off the wall, is in no way that.

Rule #1
Energy can't be created nor destroyed, it can change forms.

Rule #2
Information can't be destroyed no "matter" (pun intended:P) what is done to it.

Take a piece of paper, rip it up as small as you want. Is the information still there? Damn Skippy, just smaller pieces, however small or large is moot. The simple fact is, yep it's still there, in smaller or large pieces is all.

Welcome to the fractal realm.. Laughing

-BaC

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@BaCaRdi,

BaCaRdi wrote:

Rule #2
Information can't be destroyed no "matter" (pun intended:P) what is done to it.

... I might have to disagree with that second rule - in closed sysrtems entropy always results in an increase in information ... any ordered system can be described compactly; random systems cannot ... as entropy moves an closed ordered system toward disorder (randomness), information increases ... that being said, in open systems where influxes of energy can cause spontaneous order, information is decreased (the system is moving from randomness toward order) - does that qualify as "destroyed"?

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@paulhanke,

Nope it doesn't. There is order, regardless at what level we look at.

Lets compress the world into a singularity again. Was there nothing there? Or was it everything? Well obviously there is an order to things after all, as we are here. We don't understand this order, and can't make sense of such at this time.

Take a piece of carbon and compress it, what do you get, nothing, no information, or new information?

However, randomness is not so random as it ends up..

Yes, chaos also has an order.

In search of Super-Symmetry,

-BaC

paulhanke wrote:

... I might have to disagree with that second rule - in closed sysrtems entropy always results in an increase in information ... any ordered system can be described compactly; random systems cannot ... as entropy moves an closed ordered system toward disorder (randomness), information increases ... that being said, in open systems where influxes of energy can cause spontaneous order, information is decreased (the system is moving from randomness toward order) - does that qualify as "destroyed"?

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@BaCaRdi,

BaCaRdi wrote:

Take a piece of carbon and compress it, what do you get, nothing, no information, or new information?

... you get a net loss of information ... a diamond can be described by its overall shape plus the simple equations that define its crystalline structure - by knowing where a handful of atoms of carbon are in the diamond, you can mathematically predict where every other atom of the diamond's carbon is, simply by the applying the equations of the diamond crystal ... this you cannot do with, say, graphite - carbon atoms in graphite are much more randomly distributed and so describing the position of every atom of carbon in the corresponding blob of graphite requires much more information ...

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@paulhanke,

Remember we are talking information, not the actual bonds.

But OK, so break all those bonds, what do you have left? The lack of information or the missing structure of such?

Two of the same things, the simple fact is these Legos Razz

can be put back in may ways, but there is again information. The structure has change not the underlaying information.

-BaC

paulhanke wrote:

... you get a net loss of information ... a diamond can be described by its overall shape plus the simple equations that define its crystalline structure - by knowing where a handful of atoms of carbon are in the diamond, you can mathematically predict where every other atom of the diamond's carbon is, simply by the applying the equations of the diamond crystal ... this you cannot do with, say, graphite - carbon atoms in graphite are much more randomly distributed and so describing the position of every atom of carbon in the corresponding blob of graphite requires much more information ...

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@BaCaRdi,

BaCaRdi wrote:

The structure has change not the underlaying information.

... I suppose it boils down to how you define information - but according the Information Theory, the structure is the information ...

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@paulhanke,

I can understand that? the structure describes the object if the structure changes the description is lost...is that what you mean?

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I can understand that? the structure describes the object if the structure changes the description is lost...is that what you mean?

... something like that Smile

... take a long sequence of bits ... for example, 111000111000111000111000 ... this structure of bits is SOS repeated over and over again ... no matter how long the sequence, the information in this sequence is simply "SOS" ... now change the structure of the sequence of bits so that it is an ASCII text reproduction of a Shakespeare play (presumably typed by some very busy monkeys) ... it's the same number of bits, but there's a boatload more information ...

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@paulhanke,

No i thought you meant that if carbon turns into a diamond ,you have the description of a diamond but you have lost the description of the carbon...

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@BaCaRdi,

But now you are talking about information translation. Here is different (possibly better) way to express the idea.

Take an Atom. Remove on proton and one electron. You now have a rather unstable atom of a completely different type but the information itself has not been destroyed. It has simply been moved from one place to another. We have yet to experience the destruction or creation of matter. We have only witnessed the mutation of matter. Information is said to be the fundamental material for atomic structure and so, information can be altered, moved, changed, mutated but it cannot be actually destroyed or created.

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@Icon,

no i understand you cant destroy matter but you can loose information by observing a change in the structure...can you retrieve how carbon molecule is arranged by observing a diamond ?When matter is converted to energy does the information for the matter disappear...I thought you where looking for the lose of information in nature..If we land on a planet full of diamonds can we describe the trees that lived there??..

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@Icon,

Icon wrote:

But now you are talking about information translation. Here is different (possibly better) way to express the idea.

Take an Atom. Remove on proton and one electron. You now have a rather unstable atom of a completely different type but the information itself has not been destroyed. It has simply been moved from one place to another. We have yet to experience the destruction or creation of matter. We have only witnessed the mutation of matter. Information is said to be the fundamental material for atomic structure and so, information can be altered, moved, changed, mutated but it cannot be actually destroyed or created.

... if you equate information with matter, then certainly - by the law of conservation of matter there is a law of conservation of information ... however, Information Theory does not equate information with matter ... Information Theory defines information as the minimum number of bits required to communicate/describe ... the more regular and repetitive a structure, the fewer number bits needed to communicate/describe that structure ... under this definition, the information in the universe is proportional to the entropy of the universe ... since the universe is a closed system, by the third law of thermodynamics its entropy is always increasing - thus the information in the universe is also always increasing ... the heat death of the universe predicted by the third law of thermodynamics is a state of maximum information ...

1 Reply

@paulhanke,

Yes Paul, everything here requires the underlaying defining. A thought is also a fractal of time.

-BaC

paulhanke wrote:

... I suppose it boils down to how you define information - but according the Information Theory, the structure is the information ...

0 Replies

@BaCaRdi,

I just put something rather interesting together in my mind.

As humans, we are driven to find answers. So then if we achieve maximum information, that is to say that we learn all that we can, we would cease to be. So the absolute goal of existence is to cease to exist. Hmmm. cute

It was off topic but it amused me so I shared.

1 Reply

@paulhanke,

My link to matter is of the human realm, thats all I was trying to show.

Information is information...Who say the universe dies?

Is an explosion of say a star, not a while-hole to our world? Information, energy is matter to us. We know these types to well, we see them differently. To us their food, water, etc.

What are you really eating/drinking... Energy in so many forms, and we KNOW them by site, by smell by name. We are the matter black-holes!

To me, everything that was, everything that is, everything that will be, has an anchor. A ground state, a Universal-footprint if you would.

Is you mouth really much different that a black-hole? Can light escape when you close your mouth?

Is speech not energy waves? Could it possible be this simple?

Could every "Matter" element have it's center of informational mass?
Again we are of Matter by Matter, so lets speak in the matter realm.

Take our center of absolute(as we know it) mass, yes...our brain.

At the center of this informational mass, there is a pleasure gland (brilliant idea btw!)

Let just pretend for a moment that this gland was indeed our white-hole(The Axiom), and under that probably so, is black-hole counter balance (The Null-Axiom).

For every force there is a equal and counter force. The Ying-Yang principle exposed to you for the very first time?

Thank the creators of thy heavens who bring us life.
In all thing begin equal, "amen" my "God", my soul, my father...the creators...the singularities....

-BaC
Thank you for allowing me to take you on my journey my friends!!!

paulhanke wrote:

... if you equate information with matter, then certainly - by the law of conservation of matter there is a law of conservation of information ... however, Information Theory does not equate information with matter ... Information Theory defines information as the minimum number of bits required to communicate/describe ... the more regular and repetitive a structure, the fewer number bits needed to communicate/describe that structure ... under this definition, the information in the universe is proportional to the entropy of the universe ... since the universe is a closed system, by the third law of thermodynamics its entropy is always increasing - thus the information in the universe is also always increasing ... the heat death of the universe predicted by the third law of thermodynamics is a state of maximum information ...

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@xris,

LOL..believe it or not....Yep Razz

Called chemistry/alchemy.

science.....no boundaries.

And no it doesn't disappear it changes form...

Well lets take you definition of "Disappear"

What to you, is null of information? ....

please give a real word example's.

Yes that is a set trap if your wondering:poke-eye:

-BaC
PS. Welcome to the flight or fight response Wink

Do you "dare" cross the boundaries of reality?

xris wrote:

no i understand you cant destroy matter but you can loose information by observing a change in the structure...can you retrieve how carbon molecule is arranged by observing a diamond ?When matter is converted to energy does the information for the matter disappear...I thought you where looking for the lose of information in nature..If we land on a planet full of diamonds can we describe the trees that lived there??..

1 Reply

@BaCaRdi,

BaCaRdi wrote:

LOL..believe it or not....Yep

Called chemistry/alchemy.

science.....no boundaries.

And no it doesn't disappear it changes form...

Well lets take you definition of "Disappear"

What to you, is null of information? ....

please give a real word example's.

Yes that is a set trap if your wondering:poke-eye:

-BaC
PS. Welcome to the flight or fight response
Do you "dare" cross the boundaries of reality?

disappear, loose,not known....my tree that made that diamond can you describe it for me?

1 Reply

@xris,

Sure can:P ohh uhhh you "bit"!

It looks exactly like the underlaying structure only larger..

We call that a Fractal?

Mater of fact if I had the program I could draw it for you too;

Have you ever "grown" a crystal? Say I don't know..sugar..

What does little sugar crystalline structure look like?

Well it just happens to,that it looks "exactly" like a sugar crystal pop on a stick:P
-BaC

xris wrote:

disappear, loose,not known....my tree that made that diamond can you describe it for me?

1 Reply

@BaCaRdi,

you cant can you ...one leaf would describe the tree..one tree would describe the forest..one forest would describe its world...but your complex diamond fractal has lost its creators message...

1 Reply

@xris,

That is not even close to correct my friend...

Do the experiments and prove thy self wrong..to thy self.

A tree well lets start with a leaf..

That leaf has a "membrane" you see a nice shinny pretty world...awww thats cute;)

Open thy eyes my son.....<--dare to question?

Look closer at the leaf.... What do you see? "Branches" with "Nodes" within branches of nodes.....This is the Radix.

Yes I am sorry it's true...
-BaC
-Flight or Fight?

Welcome to the wonderful world of Chaos theory;) It's an awakening to say the least.

All my posts....

Yes....ALL my posts...are getting somewhere....time will tell if you dare venture into the unknown....known...^2

xris wrote:

you cant can you ...one leaf would describe the tree..one tree would describe the forest..one forest would describe its world...but your complex diamond fractal has lost its creators message...

1 Reply

A fratcal..WHAT!

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