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Atom Smasher - Death of Us All

 
 
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2008 11:52 pm
The question: Will the world end on Wednesday when the Large Hadron Collider is switched on? | Science | The Guardian

Legal bid to stop CERN atom smasher from 'destroying the world' - Telegraph

The Associated Press: CERN fires up new atom smasher to near Big Bang

Two words: We're f**ked.:perplexed:
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 7,237 • Replies: 69
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sarathustrah
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 01:17 am
@Victor Eremita,
wow i havent heard of this... but thats crazy

why would you want to reinact the big bang? to PROVE it happened? what will that change?

like people who still study time travel.. though i bet its impossible anyway, but what good would come? cept rippin the space time continuum or causing effects like in the movie the time machine and on the futurama movie... and what about the grandfaher effect... silly humans!!!
iconoclast
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 01:50 am
@sarathustrah,
let's hope so, huh? beats going out the slow and painful way, like running out of oil and being dragged into a nuclear armageddon, fried by climate change, or starving to death with 20 billion people stripping the land and seas bare of every green and living thing.

sucked into a singulairty with hardly time to scream "bloody hell, I didn't think it would really..." before it's happened, all time, space, energy and matter crushed into a single point of infinite nothingness.

i think it's a great way to go, we should definitely do that if we can. I mean, it's not like we're striving for survival in other ways, but rather acting in such a manner as to induce human extinction, so why not do the job right?

it's only the difference between drinking yourself to death and putting a nickel plated 9mm to your temple and blowing your brains out. the latter just has more class!
Deftil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 11:45 am
@Victor Eremita,
Oh the LHC is cool!

The thing is HUGE!
Quote:
The collider is contained in a circular tunnel with a circumference of 27 kilometres (17 mi) at a depth ranging from 50 to 175 metres underground.

Large Hadron Collider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's also super expensive!
Quote:
But more than the $8 billion price tag is riding on the LHC.

Science News / Large Hadron Collider


It has important implications for physics and our understanding of the universe in general!
Quote:
Depending on what's detected, physicists may find out if they understand the fundamental building blocks of nature, or if "everything that physicists have been talking about for 45 years is wrong," says CERN theoretical physicist John Ellis.

Science News / Large Hadron Collider


It's involved a massive effort of many peopel from all over the world!
Quote:
It is funded and built in collaboration with over eight thousand physicists from over eighty-five countries as well as hundreds of universities and laboratories.
Large Hadron Collider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's been in the works for a long time!
Quote:
The idea of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), began in the early 1980s. The first approval of the project by the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) Council occurred in December 1994 and the first civil engineering construction work began in April 1998.

Large Hadron Collider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It's neato looking!
http://s.ngm.com/2008/03/god-particle/img/god-particle-lead.jpg
The massive ATLAS detector takes shape under the French-Swiss border. It will help physicists discover how the universe works by observing it at its smallest scale.
The God Particle - National Geographic Magazine

See that guy at the botton in the center. He looks tiny!

Check out more photos of it here. The God Particle - National Geographic Magazine


Most scientists are saying that the threats from the experiments that will be done with it are very small.
Quote:
Although a few individuals have questioned the safety of the planned experiments at the LHC in the media and through the courts, the consensus in the scientific community is that there is no basis for any conceivable threat.

Large Hadron Collider - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


I really find it to be an interesting endeavor to find out more about the universe we live in, even with some of the drawbacks that it's argued to come with such as the cost and the potential danger.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 02:43 pm
@Deftil,
I can't wait to tell you all on Wednesday that there was no threat after all. And if there ends up being one then well, you won't be able to criticize me because we'll all be dead. Bonus for me, I won't have the chance to be disproven, you will.

(For anyone here who actually believes we're done for).

But I won't be too harsh. Who here believes the world is going to end? Laughing
astrotheological
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Sep, 2008 02:49 pm
@Holiday20310401,
I don't think the world will end at all.:letme-at-em:
sarathustrah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 01:21 am
@astrotheological,
yeah its always gonna be "soon"

then when its not the latest estimated date, we pick the next logical one...

when all computers didnt crash in 2000, we started sayin itll be 2012... then when that dont happen itll be 2020 or somethin...

just like the next plague... its gonna be sars, its gonna be west nile, its gonna be bird flue Razz

theres prolly a better chance that the annunaki and planet niburu are approaching than the end of the world
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 02:49 pm
@Victor Eremita,
Hello Victor Eremita



The theoretical base for the concern is 100 years old and was disproven about 80 years ago. It is interesting that the legal bid to stop CERN is from a Chemist and not a Physicist.

There is a very easy to read saftey report if interested

The safety of the LHC
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 03:13 pm
@sarathustrah,
sarathustrah wrote:
wow i havent heard of this... but thats crazy

why would you want to reinact the big bang? to PROVE it happened? what will that change?


It is a vital part of the scientific method to confirm theory with experimental observation. Experiment is what decides what is actual. There are many competing theories and it will be the one that is able to produce precise predictions to experiments that the scientific method deems reflective of reality. The LHC does not reinact the Big Bang, it creates conditions similar to those of the universe a fraction of a second after the big bang event. What will it change? Our understanding of the universe (pro, for obvious reasons), matter/antimatter (pro, as it is not understood why the universe is dominated by matter when theory states matter and antimatter are produced in equal quantities), why particles have mass (pro, is it possible to remove mass or shield it from gravity. this would make space travel very much less expensive ie it costs about $10,000 to put a kilogram of matter into space ), do extra dimensions exist (pro, this may show the way in which quantum theory can be unified with relativity. HUGE), dark matter (pro, what is approx 90% of the universe made of), and lots of other stuff ....

sarathustrah wrote:
like people who still study time travel.. though i bet its impossible anyway, but what good would come? cept rippin the space time continuum or causing effects like in the movie the time machine and on the futurama movie... and what about the grandfaher effect... silly humans


I guess people study time travel, becuase it is theoretically possible, and they are looking for ways in which to experimentally verify it. If it were possible to time travel backwards, would you not like to resolve the problem of what happens if you were to prevent (by non violent means) your own birth? What philosophical questions would that raise?

I strongly believe that the true nature of reality is able to be discovered. It is a question then of which tools provide us with the best results.
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 07:14 pm
@validity,
Well, we're still alive.

Expensive, but interesting invention. I'm happy to see it up and running. Hope we learn something for our billions of dollars in investment.
Grimlock
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 11:36 pm
@iconoclast,
iconoclast wrote:
it's only the difference between drinking yourself to death and putting a nickel plated 9mm to your temple and blowing your brains out. the latter just has more class!


Really man...nickel? Being vaporized by an H bomb would probably feel much the same, by the way, though being not-vaporized by an H bomb (or not ended by a 9mm bullet to the head) would probably be quite uncomfortable. At any rate: armageddon over heat death? yes.

Does anyone else find it priceless that the cutting edge of physics consists in smashing things together like a toddler? I think the Large Hardon Collider reflects pretty well how deep we've dug and how much further there is to go.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Sep, 2008 11:51 pm
@Grimlock,
Didy, this is the project I was referring to in the chat that one night.

I'm really looking forward to it's progress. I believe on October 21st scientists will have access to the data... all I can say is wow.

I'm not sure if any of you are familiar with sparticles Sparticle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, but if they are discovered during the smashing, it will be one of the biggest scientific breakthroughs in our lifetime.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2008 09:58 am
@Didymos Thomas,
If you think about it, $8 billion is nothing considering the United States has spent about $555 billion on the war in Iraq. Not to mention, the U.S. spends over $500 billion on defense every year, I would say based on value the particle accelerator makes economic sense.
0 Replies
 
Deftil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2008 03:30 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;24993 wrote:
Well, we're still alive.

Yes, but they haven't even got the thing up to full speed yet. It hasn't even accelerated particles faster than Fermilab's Tevatron at this point. (The Tevatron is a particle accelerator in Illinois, USA that is currently the world's highest energy atom smasher.) The Tevatron accelerates particles to 980 GeV (giga elevtron volts) and crashes them head on, for a total energy of 1960 GeV. So far the LHC has only gone up to about 500 GeV or so, and they haven't done any collisions yet. In a couple of weeks however, the LHC should be smashing protons into each other with a total collision energy of 10,000 GeV. And then in the spring I heard they're supposed to get it up to a collision energy of 14,000 GeV. So if we're to get killed by what the LHC is doing it will still probably be a couple of weeks before it happens. Of course, we're not supposed to get killed, the physicists say.

Didymos Thomas;24993 wrote:
Expensive, but interesting invention. I'm happy to see it up and running. Hope we learn something for our billions of dollars in investment.

I was looking at an article yesterday about some of the advances that have come from this kind of research. Here's some highlights:
Quote:
In 1897 J.J. Thomson discovered the electron, using a kind of particle accelerator, a cathode ray tube, that accelerated a beam of negatively charged particles between electrical terminals and made a phosphorescent green glow around the positive terminal. (Wilhelm Roentgen had used this same device in 1895 in his discovery of the particle beams that gave us x-ray technology.) Cathode ray tubes using this same principle of particle acceleration now sit in television sets in hundreds of millions of American homes, and illuminate the screens of millions of computers and scientific and medical instruments.

Quote:
In 1909, students in the laboratory of physicist Ernest Rutherford directed alpha particles from a lump of decaying radium at sheets of gold foil. The unexpected way the particles scattered when they hit the foil led Rutherford to the discovery of the atomic nucleus in 1911. Rutherford's discovery was a scientific leap forward. However, no one, least of all Rutherford himself, foresaw the enormous consequences it would have. Rutherford is reported to have said, "Anyone who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine." He made his statement five years before the first demonstration of nuclear fission. Rutherford's words have an ironic ring in a world transformed by nuclear energy.

Quote:
In the 1920s, increasing data from experimental discoveries about the nature of the atom led to the theory of the structure and behavior of atoms we call quantum mechanics, and to an utterly new understanding of nature. From this new knowledge came lasers and solar cells and, in 1947, the discovery of the transistor, the basis of all modern electronics and the age of information.

Quote:
Synchrotron radiation has become an indispensable tool for thousands of researchers in such fields as materials science and engineering, surface chemistry, biotechnology, medical imaging and environmental science.

Quote:
In the 1930s, Lawrence often kept the cyclotron in Berkeley running all night in order to produce enough radioisotopes for California hospitals to use in treating cancer. He began a tradition of using accelerators for medical diagnosis and treatment. Today, patients receive cancer treatment using beams of neutrons produced by accelerators whose main job is to produce protons for physics research. In another therapeutic approach, doctors at Loma Linda University Medical Center now treat over 100 cancer patients each day with protons from a synchrotron designed and built at Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory. Medical facilities around the world are investigating this technology. Linear electron accelerators in thousands of hospitals around the world treat millions of cancer patients every year.

Computer-aided tomography, the CAT scan, perhaps the most significant advance in medical radiography since the 1895 discovery of x-rays, originated in particle detection methods developed by high-energy physicists. The underlying magnet technology for Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI) came from particle physics research. Positron Emission Tomography (the PET scan) uses crystals of a material developed for high-energy physics particle detectors.

Fermilab - The benefits of high-energy physics research

They released the week 1 progress report for the LHC yesterday.
Quote:
Geneva, 18 September 2008. After a spectacular start on 10 September, the LHC enjoyed a mixed first week of commissioning with beam. To get beams around the ring in both directions on the first day exceeded all expectations, and the success continued through the night, with several hundred orbits being achieved.

The next step in the commissioning process is to bring in the radio-frequency (RF) system that keeps the beams bunched, rather than spreading out around the ring, and will eventually accelerate them to 7 TeV. The RF system works by 'capturing' the beam, speeding up the slower moving particles and slowing down the faster ones so that the beam remains bunched into fine threads about 11 cm long. Without it, the beam quickly dissipates and cannot be used for physics.

On Thursday night, 11 September, beam two, the anti-clockwise beam, was captured and circulated for over half an hour before being safely extracted from the LHC. The next step is to repeat the process for beam one, and that is set to begin this week.

The intervening time has been spent recovering cryogenic conditions after the failure of a power transformer on one of the surface points of the LHC switched off the main compressors of the cryogenics for two sectors of the machine. The transformer, weighing 30 tonnes and with a rating of 12 MVA, was exchanged over the weekend. During this process, the cryogenics system was put into a standby mode with the two sectors kept at around 4.5 K. Since the beginning of the week the cryogenics team have been busy re-cooling the magnets and preparing for operation with beam, which is currently forecast for today. The next stage of the commissioning will be single turn studies using beam one, followed by RF capture and circulating beam in both rings.

The LHC is on course for first collisions in a matter of weeks. Next update 24 September at the latest.

CERN | LHC First Beam - Final LHC Synchronisation Test a Success

And there are some of their detector images from the beam here - CMS - Breaking News

Such as this one:
http://cms-project-cmsinfo.web.cern.ch/cms-project-cmsinfo/Resources/images/Debris.png
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2008 12:44 pm
@Deftil,
Quote:
So if we're to get killed by what the LHC is doing it will still probably be a couple of weeks before it happens. Of course, we're not supposed to get killed, the physicists say.


Yeah, the scientists have basically laughed off suggestions that this thing could kill us. Which is why I don't worry about the matter. Besides, if they are wrong, we wont have enough time to notice before we are all compressed into a singularity.
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2008 01:28 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Actually the first working transistor design was patented by Julius Lilienfield in 1925.
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2008 03:29 pm
@Grimlock,
Grimlock wrote:
Does anyone else find it priceless that the cutting edge of physics consists in smashing things together like a toddler? I think the Large Hardon Collider reflects pretty well how deep we've dug and how much further there is to go.


It does amuse me. I would add that it is the accuracy and the precision of the smashing sets physicists apart from toddlers.
0 Replies
 
Deftil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 03:24 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;25194 wrote:
Yeah, the scientists have basically laughed off suggestions that this thing could kill us. Which is why I don't worry about the matter. Besides, if they are wrong, we wont have enough time to notice before we are all compressed into a singularity.

Yea, if things go wrong, there probably won't be anyone around to be mad at them. They might not have to worry about people telling them they were wrong either way. Either they were right and it' safe, or they were wrong and everyone is gone.
Deftil
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 10:43 am
@Deftil,
Well the apocalypse is delayed!

Quote:
Incident in LHC sector 34
Geneva, 20 September 2008. During commissioning (without beam) of the final LHC sector (sector 34) at high current for operation at 5 TeV, an incident occurred at mid-day on Friday 19 September resulting in a large helium leak into the tunnel. Preliminary investigations indicate that the most likely cause of the problem was a faulty electrical connection between two magnets, which probably melted at high current leading to mechanical failure. CERN 's strict safety regulations ensured that at no time was there any risk to people.

A full investigation is underway, but it is already clear that the sector will have to be warmed up for repairs to take place. This implies a minimum of two months down time for LHC operation. For the same fault, not uncommon in a normally conducting machine, the repair time would be a matter of days.

Further details will be made available as soon as they are known.

CERN Press Release

Looks like some bad wires have them shut down for a bit. That stinks!
0 Replies
 
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2008 12:47 pm
@sarathustrah,
sarathustrah wrote:
wow i havent heard of this... but thats crazy

why would you want to reinact the big bang? to PROVE it happened? what will that change?

like people who still study time travel.. though i bet its impossible anyway, but what good would come? cept rippin the space time continuum or causing effects like in the movie the time machine and on the futurama movie... and what about the grandfaher effect... silly humans!!!


Agreed...

They will never find "Anti-Madder" nor will they find gravity's physical form.

Since they both dont exist physicaly, since they are just function's, hence "Space's" function is to seperate one thing from another, it's like say'n "Im guna find the physical partical of "Space" or a "Vaccume".

Sadly, speculation and groundless theories had taken hold of the so called "Smart One's" and drove most or some to think they where going to create anti-madder and blow the earth up...(Or create a black hole... come on did they forget that black hole's are not like that...)

I quote "SILLY HUMANS!!!"!

Even people that had no clue of what they where try'n to do, said "Your all idoit's"

I try to stay far from the silly theories of the main stream... since it's all spectulation and empty made up mathmatical formula's, bent on prove'n some egotistical person's theory correct...

Sadly I have more logical proof that supports the theory that dark-madder is just the duality form of gravity and anti-madder is the duality of madder, therefore since madder exists anti-madder will not exist... :detective:yet that theory wont con you out of billion's to build a gaint donut in the middle of s**ker-vil...
 

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