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How can God not exist

 
 
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2008 09:22 pm
Time cannot have always existed. Without a beginning time is a line stretching both forward and backward for eternity. In this model it is impossible to ever move forward or back in time because the start cant be defined without a start how can it exist? unless it created in which case the creator would be god.
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ThoughtAsStupid
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jul, 2008 09:26 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
I do not know how God cannot exist. I'm VERY religious and know he does. I cannot believe the people who think the world was created by mere coincidence. Its so beautiful, and the people are far too complex to be an accident, along with the diversity.
de budding
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 11:06 am
@ThoughtAsStupid,
Well before you go on... it is important for you to consider why God is more plausible than the other explanations. Consider the explanation ratio of God (the amount of things explained divided by the amount of things assumed) and compare it to the explanation ration of theories such as evolutionary theory.

What you have suggested is that, because an infinite universe is such a difficult or confusing concept that God is more plausible...

1: this is classic religious attitude, deal with what is not understandable by creating something that is understandable; namely a God in your image which miraculously answers such questions. Hence the inexplicably irrational explanation ratio.

2: have you really done your research? there are many other models such as, oscillatory ones. And granted an infinite universe is a difficult concept to grab, but I think you need to research your understanding of an infinite universe. If the universe is unbounded, and has no beginning or end... why can't we exist?

I think your ignorance in your approach to truth is staggeringly lazy and concerning anything but truth. You two truly are Christians.

P.S the more I read such 'faithful' responses, the more I see the jump to God as an arbitrary choice of self comfort... explain to me that I'm wrong.

Dan.:devilish:
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 11:28 am
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
Time cannot have always existed. Without a beginning time is a line stretching both forward and backward for eternity. In this model it is impossible to ever move forward or back in time because the start cant be defined without a start how can it exist? unless it created in which case the creator would be god.


I cannot understand how the spontaneous advent of time is any less plausible than the intentional creation of time.

God doesn't make sense. Our imperfection insures that. You need to be consistent in that knowledge.
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:10 pm
@de budding,
:detective:

Well to answer that it's best to ask a question first

Q. If nature created everything, what created nature?

And that very question has also led man to the concept of "god"

But you asked,

How can god not exist?

To answer that you must first understand how god dose exist, and the only way god exist's is in are mind's defined by are perception of are self and the existence around us.

Hence for god to not exist, man it's self must not exist, therefore man could not perceive "god" or thy work.

So that's one way how "god" could not exist.( just to exist in another defined form)

I call it "The Chicken And The Egg Complex" Hence one must exist in one state for the other to exist in it's present state.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Well the chicken logicaly come's first due to the fact that it lay's egg's, but this logicaly point's to the fact that chicken's didnt allway's lay egg's. But if the chicken didnt lay egg's would it still be a chicken?

Hence a chicken exist's as a chicken due to the fact it lay's egg's or due to the fact man has defined it within one's mind as a chicken. Hence a God only exist as a God due to the fact that it has made an egg or due to the fact that it's egg or it's self has defined it as God.(the reason why could be related to the siGnature that I use)

So If there is no egg to define or make the chicken exist in the state it exist presently, the chicken would not exist as a chicken.
(Hope it all wasnt to hard to follow, parable reation's are tricky Complex)


Here are some other question's related to the same thing:rolleyes:

Q. If god made man what made god?
Q. If god has allway's existed why has god allway's existed?
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:13 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
I cannot understand how the spontaneous advent of time is any less plausible than the intentional creation of time.

God doesn't make sense. Our imperfection insures that. You need to be consistent in that knowledge.

Time does exist that makes so it much more plausible that it was created
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:19 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
Time does exist that makes so it much more plausible that it was created


Then you need to be consistent with your causal reductionism.

I don't know what "caused" the singularity, but I can say the same for God. If I must assume that all that is has a creator, why must I not assume that the God has a creator?
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:19 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
:detective:

Well to answer that it's best to ask a question first

Q. If nature created everything, what created nature?

And that very question has also led man to the concept of "god"

But you asked,

How can god not exist?

To answer that you must first understand how god dose exist, and the only way god exist's is in are mind's defined by are perception of are self and the existence around us.

Hence for god to not exist, man it's self must not exist, therefore man could not perceive "god" or thy work.

So that's one way how "god" could not exist.( just to exist in another defined form)

I call it "The Chicken And The Egg Complex" Hence one must exist in one state for the other to exist in it's present state.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? Well the chicken logicaly come's first due to the fact that it lay's egg's, but this logicaly point's to the fact that chicken's didnt allway's lay egg's. But if the chicken didnt lay egg's would it still be a chicken?

Hence a chicken exist's as a chicken due to the fact it lay's egg's or due to the fact man has defined it within one's mind as a chicken. Hence a God only exist as a God due to the fact that it has made an egg or due to the fact that it's egg or it's self has defined it as God.(the reason why could be related to the siGnature that I use)

So If there is no egg to define or make the chicken exist in the state it exist presently, the chicken would not exist as a chicken.
(Hope it all wasnt to hard to follow, parable reation's are tricky Complex)


Here are some other question's related to the same thing:rolleyes:

Q. If god made man what made god?
Q. If god has allway's existed why has god allway's existed?
\

A chicken is not a chicken because it lays eggs. You are putting too much emphasise on the lingo. man didnt make it a chicken by calling it one it just was and we observed that
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:31 pm
@de budding,
de_budding wrote:
Well before you go on... it is important for you to consider why God is more plausible than the other explanations. Consider the explanation ratio of God (the amount of things explained divided by the amount of things assumed) and compare it to the explanation ration of theories such as evolutionary theory.

What you have suggested is that, because an infinite universe is such a difficult or confusing concept that God is more plausible...

1: this is classic religious attitude, deal with what is not understandable by creating something that is understandable; namely a God in your image which miraculously answers such questions. Hence the inexplicably irrational explanation ratio.

2: have you really done your research? there are many other models such as, oscillatory ones. And granted an infinite universe is a difficult concept to grab, but I think you need to research your understanding of an infinite universe. If the universe is unbounded, and has no beginning or end... why can't we exist?

I think your ignorance in your approach to truth is staggeringly lazy and concerning anything but truth. You two truly are Christians.

P.S the more I read such 'faithful' responses, the more I see the jump to God as an arbitrary choice of self comfort... explain to me that I'm wrong.

Dan.:devilish:


well with point number one it explains everything but one thing how did god start? So it solves a lot obviously you can't just make something to explain that is why i stated the reason. Time cannot have been created within a system of only itself that is the argument

and for point 2 my argument deals with time not cycles of big bangs and crunches explained in a oscillatory system as far as time goes it is linear, it also it always making progress forward so either time always existed or was made ( go figure isn't it that way with everything) The very nature of time points to a creator without a start any point in time is the same as all the others that means time wouldn't be linear.... but it is
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:33 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
Then you need to be consistent with your causal reductionism.

I don't know what "caused" the singularity, but I can say the same for God. If I must assume that all that is has a creator, why must I not assume that the God has a creator?


because something had to always be or nothing could be things like time can only be explained with a creator because of their nature nothing indicates that about god
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:39 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
You went a little crazy with the run-on so:

OntheWindowStand wrote:
because something had to always be or nothing could be


Why?

Quote:
things like time can only be explained with a creator because of their nature


Why?

Quote:
nothing indicates that about god


Circularity.
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:40 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
Time cannot have always existed. Without a beginning time is a line stretching both forward and backward for eternity. In this model it is impossible to ever move forward or back in time because the start cant be defined without a start how can it exist? unless it created in which case the creator would be god.



:detective:
If people where not around would time still be around?
The question is, why dose it exist in the state that it exist's currently

The start only has an existence due to the fact that one has defined or given it an existene due to the fact it was not able to define or make it's own existence.



_____________________________________________________________
Laughing:offtopic:Laughing
:painting:But time cannont perceive it's self, therefore it cannot define it's existence and therefore making it's self exist as it exist's due to what it has defined it's self as.

So all that painting will go to waste if the painter dose not make another to perceive and define the art, and therefore making an object or concept have an existence with our thought.

For time is what it is, for that is what I say time is, therefore making time what it is, and thats what I say time is, and therefore I made time what it is.

And that's why time is what it is;)
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:49 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
\

A chicken is not a chicken because it lays eggs. You are putting too much emphasise on the lingo. man didnt make it a chicken by calling it one it just was and we observed that


Due to the fact that it make's egg's... it was said in relation to the fact that a god must make an existence to be a god within that existence...

Like I said maybe that parable realtion was a little to tricky I'll try to put them into easy understandable word's nexted time, sorry for the mix up..
0 Replies
 
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 12:50 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
:detective:
If people where not around would time still be around?
The question is, why dose it exist in the state that it exist's currently

The start only has an existence due to the fact that one has defined or given it an existene due to the fact it was not able to define or make it's own existence.



_____________________________________________________________
Laughing:offtopic:Laughing
:painting:But time cannont perceive it's self, therefore it cannot define it's existence and therefore making it's self exist as it exist's due to what it has defined it's self as.

So all that painting will go to waste if the painter dose not make another to perceive and define the art, and therefore making an object or concept have an existence with our thought.

For time is what it is, for that is what I say time is, therefore making time what it is, and thats what I say time is, and therefore I made time what it is.

And that's why time is what it is;)

The problem with this though is that time is tangible separate tangible things can't just define a start for something. the painter analogy is flawed because if you asked the painter the start drawing a line the goes on forever in both directions he couldn't the line you gave has a start and end

No0ne wrote:
Due to the fact that it make's egg's... it was said in relation to the fact that a god must make an existence to be a god within that existence...

Like I said maybe that parable realtion was a little to tricky I'll try to put them into easy understandable word's nexted time, sorry for the mix up..


thanks for clearing that up and that depends on definition of god in the context that you are thinking of it your absolutely right

Why?
because the laws and limits of the universe tell us that


Why?
that has been stated several times but ill do it again time is linear therefor it could not have always existed thats the simple way of putting it



Circularity is not a reason something didn't have to have created god but something had to have created this reality that you and I live it
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:02 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
Why?
because the laws and limits of the universe tell us that


No they don't.

Quote:
Why?
that has been stated several times but ill do it again time is linear therefor it could not have always existed thats the simple way of putting it


No, why could time not have a spontaneous existence?

Quote:
Circularity is not a reason something didn't have to have created god but something had to have created this reality that you and I live it


No, your argument is circular because it appears as if you are saying that God wasn't created because it is not in his nature to be created.

To see if I can prove my point, answer the question I asked earlier:

If I must assume that all that is has a creator, why must I not assume that the God has a creator?
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:06 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
The problem with this though is that time is tangible separate tangible things can't just define a start for something. the painter analogy is flawed because if you asked the painter the start drawing a line the goes on forever in both directions he couldn't the line you gave has a start and end


Yes correct, yet i did not mean that from the painter realtion, that's mainly why i put the off topic sign up, but since you see it that way..

Hence The start is the start you or another make's and the end is what you or another make's...

Time is omipresent...

I just didnt want to talk about time:rolleyes:, but here is a link to a topic about cause and effect and start's and end's which is highly related to what you want to talk about http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/young-philosophers-forum/1365-philosophy-self-2.html#post14217

And here's another thread that is about time, but not about start's and end's http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/logic/1267-future.html#post13945

You title was no where clear to what you wanted to talk about:Not-Impressed:
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:10 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
No they don't.



No, why could time not have a spontaneous existence?



No, your argument is circular because it appears as if you are saying that God wasn't created because it is not in his nature to be created.

To see if I can prove my point, answer the question I asked earlier:

If I must assume that all that is has a creator, why must I not assume that the God has a creator?


as for the first there have been several post concerning that and you are ignoring them

as for the second that would be irrational and just a convient way of perceiving time nothing indicates it has 'cycles' even if it did it still would have a existance that goes on forever in both directions forward and back but time is linear blah blah blah i said this already

and for the third because the existence you live needs a creator everything tends to disorder on its own something had to put into order

sorry for double post didn't address that other point and i did answer your question sorry if i didn't identify the answer somthing had to be forever.... my points are previous for Us to exist

No0ne wrote:
Yes correct, yet i did not mean that from the painter realtion, that's mainly why i put the off topic sign up, but since you see it that way..

Hence The start is the start you or another make's and the end is what you or another make's...

Time is omipresent...

I just didnt want to talk about time:rolleyes:, but here is a link to a topic about cause and effect and start's and end's which is highly related to what you want to talk about http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/young-philosophers-forum/1365-philosophy-self-2.html#post14217

And here's another thread that is about time, but not about start's and end's http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/logic/1267-future.html#post13945

You title was no where clear to what you wanted to talk about:Not-Impressed:


sorry if you see it that way, its about the application that time has. Due to the title you could still talk about other subjects that deal with the matter in the title though.
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:21 pm
@OntheWindowStand,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
as for the second that would be irrational and just a convient way of perceiving time nothing indicates it has 'cycles' even if it did it still would have a existance that goes on forever in both directions forward and back but time is linear blah blah blah i said this already


You have said nothing and will continue to say nothing until you provide arguments rather than unsupported statements.

This is why I have only asked why and gainsayed.
No0ne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:22 pm
@No0ne,
OntheWindowStand wrote:
sorry if you see it that way, its about the application that time has. Due to the title you could still talk about other subjects that deal with the matter in the title though.



All thing's at one point have allway's not existed untill someone make's them exist, hence that would be the "so called undefined start"

The problem finding when that start was, or what person had started all the end's and other start's made from the first... it seem like even if it could be thought of... it could not be physicaly proven... only word's could..
OntheWindowStand
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jul, 2008 01:26 pm
@Mr Fight the Power,
Mr. Fight the Power wrote:
You have said nothing and will continue to say nothing until you provide arguments rather than unsupported statements.

This is why I have only asked why and gainsayed.


I have a question are you mentally deficient ??? the guy above this post got my point
 

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