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What Is the Best Form of Government?

 
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Aug, 2009 11:58 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;80549 wrote:
The state of society, its values and norms, its weaknesses and lapses, inevitably defines its government to a great extent. Peoples last for millenia while few governments survive more than a few centuries before they're tossed aside for something else. Those that do last are capable of evolving, sometimes to the point of re-inventing themselves, to accommodate changing circumstances and attitudes.

I think the best form of government is that which encourages, perhaps even facilitates the strongest, healthiest society to nurture the symbiosis between citizen and state. Likewise, a sick society is symptomatic of sick government, a problem recently addressed by American contemporary chronicler Chris Hedges:

"...The childish idea that we can always prevail, that reality is never an impediment to what we want, is the central motif of illusion peddled on popular talk shows, by the Christian Right, by Hollywood, in corporate retreats, by the news industry and by self-help gurus. Reality can always be overcome. The future will always be glorious. And held out to keep us amused and entertained are spectacles and celebrities who have become idealized versions of ourselves and who, we are assured, we can all one day become.


"The cultural embrace of illusion, and the celebrity culture that has risen up around it, have accompanied the awful hollowing out of the state. We have shifted from a culture of production to a culture of consumption. We have been sold a system of casino capitalism, with its complicated and unregulated deals of turning debt into magical assets, to create fictional wealth for us and vast wealth for our elite. We have internalized the awful ethic of corporatism -- one built around the cult of the self and consumption as an inner compulsion -- to believe that living is about our own advancement and our own happiness at the expense of others. Corporations, behind the smoke screen, have ruthlessly dismantled and destroyed our manufacturing base and impoverished our working class. The free market became our god and government was taken hostage by corporations, the same corporations that entice us daily with illusions though the mass media, the entertainment industry and popular culture.


"The more we sever ourselves from a literate, print-based world, a world of complexity and nuance, a world of ideas, for one informed by comforting, reassuring images, fantasies, slogans and a celebration of violence the more we implode. We ask, like the wrestling fans or those who confuse love with pornography, to be fed lies. We demand lies. The skillfully manufactured images and slogans that flood the airwaves and infect our political discourse mask reality. And we do not protest. The lonely Cassandras who speak the truth about our misguided imperial wars, the global economic meltdown and the imminent danger of multiple pollutions that are destroying the eco-system that sustains the human species, are drowned out by arenas full of fans chanting "Slut! Slut! Slut!" or television audiences chanting "Jer-ry! Jer-ry! Jer-ry!" The worse reality becomes, the less a beleaguered population wants to hear about it and the more it distracts itself with squalid pseudo-events of celebrity breakdowns, gossip and trivia.


"A culture that cannot distinguish between reality and illusion dies. And we are dying now. We will wake from our state of induced childishness, one where trivia and gossip pass for news and information, one where our goal is not justice by an elusive and unattainable happiness, to confront the stark limitations before us or we will continue our headlong retreat into fantasy."

Within a culture so deeply afflicted is there any form of government that could be considered ideal? When the society and government become mutually corruptive, arguments over the fine points of individual versus collective rights and economic models become almost absurd.


I agree with much of what you said, or quoted, but I have to recoil in horror from that sentiment, based on an erroneous understanding of capitalism, that associates the free market with big business and overconsumption, and which prescribes as a cure some mode of asceticism. If the value of life is not for the individual alone, then it has no value at all.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 10:44 pm
@Theaetetus,
"Recoil in horror"? Really? I don't think you 'recoil' very readily. C'mon, admit it.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 11:05 pm
@RDRDRD1,
Smile No, just on special occasions. And, I have to admit, I stole that phrase from Hunter S. Thomson. I was just watching Fear and Loathing. Best line of the movie..."Ah, devil ether. It makes you behave like the village drunkard in some early Irish novel. Total loss of all basic motor skills. Blurred vision, no balance, numb tongue. The mind recoils in horror, unable to communicate with the spinal column. Which is interesting because you can actually watch yourself behaving in this terrible way, but you can't control it. You approach the turnstiles and know that when you get there, you have to give the man two dollars or he won't let you inside. But when you get there, everything goes wrong. Some angry rotarian shoves you and you think "What's happening here? What's going on?" And you hear yourself mumbling..." :bigsmile:
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Aug, 2009 11:10 pm
@Theaetetus,
For God's sake, man, if you choose to invoke the name of the blessed deity, have the reverance to spell the man's name with a "p" as in the Scottish Thompson.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Aug, 2009 12:46 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82240 wrote:
For God's sake, man, if you choose to invoke the name of the blessed deity, have the reverance to spell the man's name with a "p" as in the Scottish Thompson.


That'd be a typo, but good to hear you're of the true faith..:a-ok:
0 Replies
 
Shadow Dragon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 05:37 pm
@Theaetetus,
I've thought about this for a while, and I think that an Constitutional Imperial Republic seems to be the best government in my opinion. The senate would run the day to day affairs of the republic and vote on laws to be sent to the emporer to either be signed or vetoed. The emperor and his cabinent will decide the general direction that the country is headed and call the shots in case of an emergency. The executive branch would be headed by an emperor. Two or three emperor elects would be chosed by the current emperor (more than likely they'll either be military leaders, someone from the emperor's cabinent or someone from the senate), once he decided he's going to retire soon, and then the senate can vote on which one will become the new emperor (similar to the way supreme court judges are decided here in the U.S.).

The senate and state governments would be somewhat democratic. It would be set up in the constituation that you would have to have been a state senator for at least two terms before you could run for governor. You'd have to have served as governor for at least two terms before you could run for imperial senator. The amount of imperial senators that each state would have will depend on it's population.

I like this setup, since then only proven leaders would reach imperial senator or emperor. Also, it's less likely you'll reach a position of power simply due to your affiliation with a political party.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 06:38 pm
@Theaetetus,
What means "somewhat democratic"? A constitutional republic headed by an emperor for life would either become a dictatorship or would see the head of state treated along the lines of a constitutional monarch, meaning largely stripped of power. Your model, however, seems to fully empower the emperor. Oh great, bring on the assassins! Et tu Brute? Maybe even a Forum and gladiatorial bloodbaths to distract the Plebs?
Shadow Dragon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 07:08 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82646 wrote:
What means "somewhat democratic"? A constitutional republic headed by an emperor for life would either become a dictatorship or would see the head of state treated along the lines of a constitutional monarch, meaning largely stripped of power. Your model, however, seems to fully empower the emperor. Oh great, bring on the assassins! Et tu Brute? Maybe even a Forum and gladiatorial bloodbaths to distract the Plebs?


By somewhat democratic, I simply meant that not just anyone could run for the higher offices. You'd have to have held the smaller offices first but the elections would be fully public. The only elections that wouldn't be public would be for the emperor and judges.

I'll admit though, that I'm not a big fan of democracy, that's why I would limit the choices. The only way a democracy can function is if the vast majority of the public constantly stays up to date on what's going on at the federal and state level and the individual politicians voting record. However, the majority of the public seem to completely avoid it, or just hear snippits of what politicians have heard from biased sources (such as most talk radio and most of the 24 hr news agencies). Hell, I think most of the adult population here seems to care more about voting in American Idol than they do electing their officials. The public may say that they want to be involved, but their actions show otherwise. So a government that is more open to public opinion on a large scale, will more than likely fail... or end up having the powers that be get their power by winning a talent show. :rolleyes:

I hope that didn't come off as rude or trying to attack your opinion, but this is just how I honestly feel.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Aug, 2009 10:40 pm
@Theaetetus,
Dragon, mon ami, it would do you no harm to learn a bit of the remarkably consistent traits of insurrection and revolution. I think these realities, these powerful and irrepressible forces, render your model unrealisitic, even unviable.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 08:44 am
@RDRDRD1,
Write a programme for a government computer that has all the rights of the individual and an agreed agenda by the people for the people.click run.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 08:47 am
@Theaetetus,
Ah yes, government of the people, by the people, for the people - sounds pretty radical left wing doesn't it?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 09:17 am
@RDRDRD1,
Thats me..left is best...
0 Replies
 
Shadow Dragon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 10:56 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82687 wrote:
Dragon, mon ami, it would do you no harm to learn a bit of the remarkably consistent traits of insurrection and revolution. I think these realities, these powerful and irrepressible forces, render your model unrealisitic, even unviable.

Revolution only happens when the people are angry and someone comes along that can organize them. As long as the people have a prosperious enviroment and the government doesn't interfere in their daily lives, they'll usually be content. No matter who is in charge.

Besides, a lot of the great nations in history have been at their most successful under Imperial or Royal leadership. Rome had a four hundred year era of peace and prosterity, known as Pax Romani, after becoming an empire. Russia rose up into a major european power under the tsars, and Britian become a world power under it's monarchy. Hisorically speaking, stable leadership has been more successful than leadership that sways with public opinion.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 11:46 am
@Theaetetus,
Well SD it sounds like you're living in the wrong country or do you think the sort of government you envision can evolve in the United States?
Shadow Dragon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 12:38 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82806 wrote:
Well SD it sounds like you're living in the wrong country or do you think the sort of government you envision can evolve in the United States?

I can definetely see it evolving in the U.S. In fact, the current state of U.S. republic reminds me of the end of the Roman republic. Though hopefully we can avoid having three generations of civil war.

Plus, I got this way by watching American politicians. They pander to special interest groups and usually win because they have the best attack ads or gave the best speech. I hope I'm proven wrong about this and that the American people suddenly take a heavy interest in their local politics and the politcs in Washington. That suddenly they start watching watching footage from meetings in congross and form their own opinions on the issues, rather than being told their opinion by tv and radio peronalities. And that they stop voting for someone primarily due to him/her hading a little D or R next to their name. Though I haven't seen the European democratic republics first hand, so I don't know if it's the same there, but my observations of human nature suggest that it's likely not that different.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 01:11 pm
@Theaetetus,
I fear you may be right. I have been pondering of late the adaptability of classical democracy to the world as it may evolve in the course of this century. I am a convinced believer in global warming. Just this week hundreds of Humboldt squid, denizens of the Sea of Cortez in Mexico, began washing ashore here on Vancouver Island. Last month they created quite a furor when they began littering the beaches in San Diego. We see all sorts of species migration occuring up here.

If the "best and brightest" minds on climate change are right, the worst case scenario - that of runaway global warming - would see the earth's population reduced from the 6,700-millions we currently support to a few hundred millions, say 400-millions. 6,700 down to 400. That's a kill off of 6.3-billion people. If population growth forecasts are right it will be a couple of billion more yet.

Least and last affected will be the Western world, or the northern reaches of it. How will our institutions function under these enormous pressures? Who gets a seat in the lifeboat and who gets chucked overboard that others may live?

Your Pentagon is about to release its Quadrennial Defense Review and it's going to be an eye-opener although I fully expect it to be understated. However I think it's bound to shake up a lot of people and run the denialist community out of town at long last.

East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Australia, South and Central America are in for an exceptionally bad time. It'll be pretty much "Them" and "Us" and I don't think they're going to be particularly happy with US.

We don't have to heat the planet very much at all before the growing freshwater crisis transforms into a catastrophic disruption of the food supply in nations like India and China and throughout Africa and parts of South America as well as Australia. I think they're already buggered whether we like to admit it or not.

Last month Britain's environment secretary, Hilary Benn, released a government report showing the "best case scenario" for climate change in Great Britain to 2070. The report showed most of Britain is likely to receive a 2-degree Celsius temperature increase and parts of the south, including London, as much as 6-degrees. This is Britain, an island nation surrounded by oceans.

We've already concluded that an average, 2-degree Celsius increase over pre-industrial temperatures is the maximum we can possibly tolerate before triggering runaway global warming. If Britain, of all places, expects a minimum of 2-degree Celsius heating, what does that say for the rest of the world, the hot parts, the vast landlocked regions?

What troubles me is that I think it we're going to fashion a democracy and institutions that will serve our grandchildren into the second half of this century we're going to have to have a very serious and extensive discussion and debate that will progress to planning and implementation of measures for adaptation and remediation. That's going to require an enormous degree of central authority and if we don't make provision that we, the people, hold the reins and exercise that authority responsibly, then someone else will grab that power and we will very much be at their mercy.

Enough of my rant.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 02:18 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82820 wrote:
I fear you may be right. I have been pondering of late the adaptability of classical democracy to the world as it may evolve in the course of this century. I am a convinced believer in global warming. Just this week hundreds of Humboldt squid, denizens of the Sea of Cortez in Mexico, began washing ashore here on Vancouver Island. Last month they created quite a furor when they began littering the beaches in San Diego. We see all sorts of species migration occuring up here.

If the "best and brightest" minds on climate change are right, the worst case scenario - that of runaway global warming - would see the earth's population reduced from the 6,700-millions we currently support to a few hundred millions, say 400-millions. 6,700 down to 400. That's a kill off of 6.3-billion people. If population growth forecasts are right it will be a couple of billion more yet.

Least and last affected will be the Western world, or the northern reaches of it. How will our institutions function under these enormous pressures? Who gets a seat in the lifeboat and who gets chucked overboard that others may live?

Your Pentagon is about to release its Quadrennial Defense Review and it's going to be an eye-opener although I fully expect it to be understated. However I think it's bound to shake up a lot of people and run the denialist community out of town at long last.

East Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, Africa, Australia, South and Central America are in for an exceptionally bad time. It'll be pretty much "Them" and "Us" and I don't think they're going to be particularly happy with US.

We don't have to heat the planet very much at all before the growing freshwater crisis transforms into a catastrophic disruption of the food supply in nations like India and China and throughout Africa and parts of South America as well as Australia. I think they're already buggered whether we like to admit it or not.

Last month Britain's environment secretary, Hilary Benn, released a government report showing the "best case scenario" for climate change in Great Britain to 2070. The report showed most of Britain is likely to receive a 2-degree Celsius temperature increase and parts of the south, including London, as much as 6-degrees. This is Britain, an island nation surrounded by oceans.

We've already concluded that an average, 2-degree Celsius increase over pre-industrial temperatures is the maximum we can possibly tolerate before triggering runaway global warming. If Britain, of all places, expects a minimum of 2-degree Celsius heating, what does that say for the rest of the world, the hot parts, the vast landlocked regions?

What troubles me is that I think it we're going to fashion a democracy and institutions that will serve our grandchildren into the second half of this century we're going to have to have a very serious and extensive discussion and debate that will progress to planning and implementation of measures for adaptation and remediation. That's going to require an enormous degree of central authority and if we don't make provision that we, the people, hold the reins and exercise that authority responsibly, then someone else will grab that power and we will very much be at their mercy.

Enough of my rant.


As we radically degrade the foundation of our economy and society in order to slow the rate at which we imagine ourselves effecting global temperatures, we will weaken civilization to the point that when the problems arising from overpopulation actually arrive in force, it will either collapse outright or be transformed into some extremely dystopic totalitarianism.
0 Replies
 
Shadow Dragon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Aug, 2009 05:23 pm
@Theaetetus,
I'm not sure if I completely buy that global warming is as bad as some people say, simply due to the fact that the Earth has gone through periods of heating up and cooling down in the past. Though either way, I doubt we humans are actually helping the problem. As such, the major governments (the U.S., European Union, Russia and China) should have some sort of disaster readiness program. Also it would be useful to sign some sort of treaty that if one of them should get hit with a big disaster that the others will give aid. It would been in no one's favor to have any of the major powers collapsing due to a natural disaster.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 08:04 am
@Shadow Dragon,
Shadow Dragon;82862 wrote:
I'm not sure if I completely buy that global warming is as bad as some people say, simply due to the fact that the Earth has gone through periods of heating up and cooling down in the past. Though either way, I doubt we humans are actually helping the problem. As such, the major governments (the U.S., European Union, Russia and China) should have some sort of disaster readiness program. Also it would be useful to sign some sort of treaty that if one of them should get hit with a big disaster that the others will give aid. It would been in no one's favor to have any of the major powers collapsing due to a natural disaster.
You better buy it because your the best part of it.Youve had one disaster and it crippled your government.
0 Replies
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Aug, 2009 08:20 am
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;82767 wrote:
Ah yes, government of the people, by the people, for the people - sounds pretty radical left wing doesn't it?


Not to me....


Government of the person, by the person, for the person.

Perhaps I am simply a misanthrope, but I can trust persons, but not people.
0 Replies
 
 

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