Violence

@Doobah47,

Quote:

Having socialized with people "of ill repute" let's say, I'd say that usually gang related / crime related lifestyles are a system imposed via boredom, and not so much via poverty.

I'm sure boredom plays a role, but I think there is something more to it. People in poverty sometimes turn to crime because they have no other option. Others in poverty turn to crime because crime seems more appealing than flipping burgers. Regardless of economic status, people turn to crime out of desire - they want the lifestyle, the money, and a certain respect they assume comes with the territory.

1 Reply

@Doobah47,

Doobah

I've been socializing with people "of ill repute" myself, I've acctually been on the wrong side of the law pretty much my whole life.. I where a verry mild version of a "gangbanger" in my early teens you know, doing the gang signs, taging up turf, fighting, dealing in alcohol (alot of smuggled alcohol comes to sweden because of our extremley high alcohol prices) and to a near-nil level drugs etc. And I have to claim that you are wrong on your claim that boredom creates gangsters..

I know from my own experiences that I where in the "gang" for the respect and status but stayed for the firends and the money... Although I did tag up turf and started fights out of boredom... I only got out of the gang when I realized that it where going to take me down, I had the choise to run with it becoming an all-out gangster or walking away from it.. I walked and have on several occations doubted my choise when going gets hard and when the spirit becomes heavy to keep of the rocky bottom..

What acctually pushed me out of that life where nothing but my active choise not to take narcotics, I've always wanted my mind to be as much as it could, thus making narcotics close to the only thing I wouldn't use by any means... When I looked around and saw that the other people in the gang, my firends, where starting to use the heavy drugs and loosing all their money to pushers, I knew it was time for me to leave because I wouldn't have been able to see any more people beeing destroyed by drugs...

To cure my boredom I did start with arts and poems but also things like politics and -suprise- philosophy.. So you have a point about the arts n crafts program you sugested..

And wheren't the american dream the reason why everybody moved over there back in the like 17 to 18 hundreds? Isn't it that old? So how do you know the crime rates back in those days? But in those days I belive that the american dream where more about freedom and such then it is today about greed and finances...

Drugs and prostitution are two thing I would like to remove from the gang income... definently.. I have a "thought" about it on my website acctually.. "Inside Wizzy's head" it's called if you would be interested in reading it..

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@Didymos Thomas,

I suppose my reference point is simple in that boredom breeds desire; so perhaps people may be able to subsist (in the West) without actually doing paid work (charity/welfare/pension) but their desire becomes inflated when they are left doing nothing for anybody, even themselves - so in fact I think you'd find that it is boredom and not poverty that is the cause of specifically gang indoctrination and crime made for lucrative profits.

Once when I was young I went out for the traditional bender (long night of alcohol etc) and in the morning with no money and starving bellies somebody stole a loaf from an unattended bakers; now I would not really call this a crime as such, necessity bred it, so if perhaps he was jailed I would have serious grievances with the state. Of course if somebody is selling heroin and enslaving young people for prostitution in order to have caviar, cars and cocaine, then I would expect there to be some kind of retribution, such as jail.

Jail is a founding factor in our supposedly democratic system, so I suppose the reference to jail kind of fits into a thread about violence - another question being 'is the threat of x enough to stop y, when x and y are realistically unrelated?' Of course I disagree entirely with capital/corporal punishment so we are left with jail, which is in turn a breeding ground for heroin addiction, criminal networking and self-destruction. An eye for an eye is not fair with regard to mistake or cause and effect, and surely (due to deviation) anything anybody does is relevant to one of these activities. So I conclude by saying that punishment is unsatisfactory - my feeling is that punishments leads to introvertion and thus to greater 'crimes' when an introvert switches; essentially detumescence is what is required after committing 'crimes', the same as detumescence is required after watching porn let's say - carnal instincts fuel basic crimes (not gang or preconcieved) so maybe if we had a system of language that identified the requirement to relax and reconsider morality as it were.

1 Reply

@de budding,

de_budding wrote:

Doest this really incorporate drugs like anabolic steroids and cafeen, as well as medicines? In the sense that evolution is being brought into this- isn't it a case of providing evidence that all drugs have negative side effects? And therefore all altered states of body/mind via substance are negative alterations?

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide) produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine. To defend the use of mood-altering recreational drugs (cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin), because some individuals consume maintenance drugs (high cholesterol or blood-pressure beta-blockers) that show no practical comparison on the ability to alter an individuals default position of sobriety, only serves to expose an individual to the accusation of meretricious reasoning.

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@Ruthless Logic,

Quote:

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide) produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine. To defend the use of mood-altering recreational drugs (cocaine, methamphetamine, heroin), because some individuals consume maintenance drugs (high cholesterol or blood-pressure beta-blockers) that show no practical comparison on the ability to alter an individuals default position of sobriety, only serves to expose an individual to the accusation of meretricious reasoning.

Every substance you criticize here has medical use, with the exception of methamphetamine (at least, I know of no medical use for the drug). However, even methamphetamine seems to have at least occasional survival value given it's military history.

You mention aspirin. Aspirin, if taken in high enough doses, can be fatal. This is impossible with marijuana.

Not to mention the host of prescription drugs which do have the same practical effects, even when taken as prescribed. Many of them are derived from substances you criticize, like opium.

Though, we have managed to stray from the topic. As drugs pertain to violence, it seems that no drug is necessarily more harmful than helpful, and that humans have the potential to use drugs to reduce suffering as well as the potential to use drugs to increase suffering. It's us, not the substance.

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@Wizzy,

Wizzy wrote:

Ruthless Logic

Oh man, sorry dude but I'm chosing the corner of budding and thomas on this one..

Why is sobriety so important in the first place? Don't you know that a moderate intake of alcohol for example is healthy for the mind and acctually makes the mind work better? I'm talking small amounts here but that have to qualify fo "pervasive drug" doesn't it? You kill braincells, true, but you do kill the slow and un-healthy braincells first, making the surviving braincells more effective...

Ofcourse all drugs have side-effects, all things have side-effects... The three strike system which america uses have the side-effect of turning non-violent criminals into violent criminals if they have two strikes.. Electing George Bush had the side effect of everybody in the world hating you for it.. A normal aspirin can give you a whole bunch of different thing that's negative..
Even though this is all true, drugs are often good.. If you had heart problems you'd be taking the medz in a second and you know it even if they made your skin green and cloth ripped to shreds only leaving the convinient part that covers your 'private parts'...

And another thing: throwing around big words might it seem like you know what you are talking about in normal and especially political contexts, in philosophy, it normaly just makes you look like you are covering up the fact that you can't honestly back up your claims... Not saying that you do that just saying that it makes it look that way...

It appears to be a contradiction, the usage of multisyllable vocabulary, and the accusation of careless incompetency. To have the cognitive ability to have access to words of more distinctive definitions, should it not follow that the ensuing claims or arguments contain the same precise attributes that allowed the writer to incorporporate and use the expanded vocabulary to detail his or her considerations.

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@Ruthless Logic,

Ruthless Logic wrote:

I can not recall the last time an aspirin or a required prescribed Heart Medication ( Phenytoin, Encainide)...

Phenytoin is not a heart medication, it's for seizures and on occasion used for some psychiatric disorders like bipolar disorder. And jeez, encainide?! I'm not sure that's actually even manufactured anymore -- procainamide is a relative that's at the bottom of the cardiology crash cart, but believe me that drugs like amiodarone and sotalol have replaced that class of drugs.

Quote:

...produces the same practical effects, such as the dulling or exasperated influence on the Human Body like Marijuana or Methamphetamine.

Well, I prescribe opiate narcotics and benzodiazepines (tranquilizers, like Valium and Xanax) on a daily basis to treat pain and anxiety in hospitalized patients. Of course these can be abused, but they are critically important drugs for clinical use. Do you want a list of therapeutically important drugs that can alter consciousness? How about antiemetics (nausea drugs) like phenergan, compazine, and metoclopramide? How about antihistamines (for itching) like diphenhydramine (Benadryl)? How about seizure medications (like carbemazepine, phenytoin, and phenobarbital to name a few)? Oh, by the way, beta blockers CAN be sedating, especially nonselective beta blockers like propranolol -- but they certainly can affect energy levels by limiting exercise tolerance and capacity. And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

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@Doobah47,

I have a theory that everything humans do is founded in boredom; boredom being a state of potential activity.

We do have carnal desires (sex/food/sleep) yet how can we say that these are not borne of potential confounded by innate hormone/energy levels; I think we have to say that these two factors are the foundation of all activity.

Surely this is an analogy for preconceived 'crime' - desire confounded by potential, or potential confounded by desire.

The real reason for this thread is to investigate the notion of crime conceived 'in the moment' and manifest as subconscious intuition fed through the mechanics of the conscious (which deal with perception). My original point was the inference that punishment x being a reason not to take action y is unsatisfactory, and that some kind of detumescence needs to be incorporated into a system of society.

You know, it might sounds nuts but I have an idea:
Keep excretions inside the body, and let them go when you need to, not when you want to. This is perfect for detumescence - if you've ever tried tantra you might understand that if you hold in a piss during 'the act' then let it go when you desire an orgasm, then you have achieved a very simplistic and immediately obvious form of detumescence.

So why not hold a piss in and let it go before succumbing to a violent act.

Second on the list is the succumbing to advertising and salesmanship - if you refuse the concept of self-satisfaction (urination) then surely you will be less likely to desire a form of satisfaction which registers as less important than urinating. See; urea is gold, and money is gold - so hold one in and surely the rest might follow.

Funny as it might seem, I'm sure that you've noticed that toilets are advertised as 'WC'; so one might insert a few vowels and discover that one could say I must go to Wacay (Wa-say), so if you do urinate it might be said that one is a Wa-say - pretty simple. Then after reading this take a look at this word: 'USA', seems pretty inocuous on the surface, then say it out loud - "YOU WA SAY". Aha! is what you might say... then you take a look at the US version of English and discover that 'wizz' is a term for urination... uh-oh... so wizz could easily be converted to wiss or more simply to wc.

I know you might say that inserting vowels and making up random words is a little weird, as it would seem is holding in a piss; but then I say that Hebrew likes to remove vowels from words, so why can't we insert them?

Anyway! There you have it, detumescence might depend on something being introverted then expounded at will. Why not find a way to fit this into language systems and variants on the American Dream.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Phenytoin is not a heart medication, it's for seizures and on occasion used for some psychiatric disorders like bipolar disorder. And jeez, encainide?! I'm not sure that's actually even manufactured anymore -- procainamide is a relative that's at the bottom of the cardiology crash cart, but believe me that drugs like amiodarone and sotalol have replaced that class of drugs.

Well, I prescribe opiate narcotics and benzodiazepines (tranquilizers, like Valium and Xanax) on a daily basis to treat pain and anxiety in hospitalized patients. Of course these can be abused, but they are critically important drugs for clinical use. Do you want a list of therapeutically important drugs that can alter consciousness? How about antiemetics (nausea drugs) like phenergan, compazine, and metoclopramide? How about antihistamines (for itching) like diphenhydramine (Benadryl)? How about seizure medications (like carbemazepine, phenytoin, and phenobarbital to name a few)? Oh, by the way, beta blockers CAN be sedating, especially nonselective beta blockers like propranolol -- but they certainly can affect energy levels by limiting exercise tolerance and capacity. And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

Phenytoin is a commonly prescribed anticonvulsant used to treat most types of ... of distal phalanges, impaired growth, and congenital heart defects.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

And finally, I'll spare you a list of all the antidepressants, antipsychotics, and mood stabilizers that are either activating or sedating.

I wouldn't mind if you mentioned what categories rispiradone fits into...

Smile

2 Replies

@Doobah47,

RuthlessLogic, your claim is too extreme to defend. There are obviously some cases where the use of drugs are beneficial. No one is claiming they are necessarily good, but they are obviously not necessarily more harmful than helpful.

I believe you are missing the point (or better yet, I am failing to make my self clear), I am not advocating the total non-use of drugs by individuals who clearly need them to survive. These people are already physically compromised, and consequently subjected to accelerated process of physical degradation by the processes of the Natural World. My point is engaging in a behavior (recreational drugs) that exposes an otherwise healthy individual, with the cognitive advantage of sobriety, by willfully exposing that individual to the disadvantages of artificial states-of mind that are simply not proven (sobriety is proven) by the arduous taskmaster of time (evolution).

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@Ruthless Logic,

Ruthless Logic wrote:

Phenytoin is a commonly prescribed anticonvulsant used to treat most types of ... of distal phalanges, impaired growth, and congenital heart defects.

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

Phenytoin also does not treat "impaired growth" though it can cause it.

Finally, I've cared for I don't know hundreds of children with congenital heart defects, including at one of the world's largest pediatric heart transplant centers where I worked as a subspecialty fellow for the last three years. Can you name a single congenital heart defect without looking it up? Which one is treatable with phenytoin? Phenytoin is NOT used for congenital heart disease, though it CAN actually cause it if used in pregnancy. I just searched the National Library of Medicine and I found ONE article from 1982 in which phenytoin was used in a drug trial for cardiac arrhythmias. And that's it.

3 Replies

@Aedes,

Quote:

I believe you are missing the point (or better yet, I am failing to make my self clear), I am not advocating the total non-use of drugs by individuals who clearly need them to survive.

Where do we draw the line on 'need to survive'? That's a pretty severe demand, eliminating almost everything, and at times everything, that we have.

Quote:

These people are already physically compromised, and consequently subjected to accelerated process of physical degradation by the processes of the Natural World.

And what sort of standard could we possibly establish to determine 'physically compromised'? It's relatively easy to significantly impair one's self with over the counter drugs, but when used responsibly they do not seem to pose a terrible risk.

Quote:

My point is engaging in a behavior (recreational drugs) that exposes an otherwise healthy individual, with the cognitive advantage of sobriety, by willfully exposing that individual to the disadvantages of artificial states-of mind that are simply not proven (sobriety is proven) by the arduous taskmaster of time (evolution).

What constitutes a healthy individual? It seems to me that healthy and unhealthy individuals often benefit from the recreational use of drugs. Take alcohol, for instance. The use of alcohol as been an important aspect of many cultures, and I do not mean to make an example of Roman gluttony. Alcohol has been, and is used, in religious ceremonies. The ability to produce alcohol allowed many early people to keep a longer lasting replacement to water.
As for cognitive advantages - what should we do with all of the other things that harm our cognitive functions if over used? Television is harmful to one's attention span.

Sobriety is proven. Let's clear this one up, too. Sobriety is not engaging in some activity, particularly the use of some drug. Nearly every culture on earth has some substance, or substances, which he uses for either recreational, spiritual, or medicinal purposes. I agree that the reckless consumption of anything is dangerous, but this does not mean that sobriety is somehow 'proven' and the responsible use of some drugs 'un-proven'.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Quote:

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

That is probably one of the funniest replies I have ever read on this forum.

(sorry to be off topic)

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Where do we draw the line on 'need to survive'? That's a pretty severe demand, eliminating almost everything, and at times everything, that we have.

And what sort of standard could we possibly establish to determine 'physically compromised'? It's relatively easy to significantly impair one's self with over the counter drugs, but when used responsibly they do not seem to pose a terrible risk.

What constitutes a healthy individual? It seems to me that healthy and unhealthy individuals often benefit from the recreational use of drugs. Take alcohol, for instance. The use of alcohol as been an important aspect of many cultures, and I do not mean to make an example of Roman gluttony. Alcohol has been, and is used, in religious ceremonies. The ability to produce alcohol allowed many early people to keep a longer lasting replacement to water.
As for cognitive advantages - what should we do with all of the other things that harm our cognitive functions if over used? Television is harmful to one's attention span.

Sobriety is proven. Let's clear this one up, too. Sobriety is not engaging in some activity, particularly the use of some drug. Nearly every culture on earth has some substance, or substances, which he uses for either recreational, spiritual, or medicinal purposes. I agree that the reckless consumption of anything is dangerous, but this does not mean that sobriety is somehow 'proven' and the responsible use of some drugs 'un-proven'.

Until you can master your immature contempt for all things rational, the access to the acquisition of understanding will escape you.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

What kind of nonsensical word salad are you cutting and pasting from?!

Used to treat most types of distal phalanges?! Do you know what distal phalanges are? They're the tips of your fingers and toes. That's it -- fingertips. So phenytoin is used to treat fingertips -- last I checked fingertips aren't a disease.

Phenytoin also does not treat "impaired growth" though it can cause it.

Finally, I've cared for I don't know hundreds of children with congenital heart defects, including at one of the world's largest pediatric heart transplant centers where I worked as a subspecialty fellow for the last three years. Can you name a single congenital heart defect without looking it up? Which one is treatable with phenytoin? Phenytoin is NOT used for congenital heart disease, though it CAN actually cause it if used in pregnancy. I just searched the National Library of Medicine and I found ONE article from 1982 in which phenytoin was used in a drug trial for cardiac arrhythmias. And that's it.

Distal Phalanges.....word salad? The disease process of osteoarthritis can effect the Distal Phalanges of some individuals, and the anti-inflammatory attributes of the drug Phenytoin can relieve the symptoms of osteoarthritis in some patients. You should spend less time being critical of me as it pertains to the therapeutic value of a prescribed drug, and more time paying down your student loan from the University of Phoenix.

1 Reply

@Ruthless Logic,

For god's sake, here is the FDA-approved package insert and full prescribing information for phenytoin. Take a brief look at "indications and usage":

http://media.pfizer.com/files/products/uspi_dilantin.pdf

Being one of the oldest drugs still in use (first marketed around 1960), phenytoin has been tried for a lot of things, both off-label and in clinical trials. But we're talking about a generation ago. Phenytoin is a notoriously toxic drug that has a very limited set of uses these days.

Ruthless Logic wrote:

Distal Phalanges.....word salad? The disease process of osteoarthritis can effect the Distal Phalanges of some individuals, and the anti-inflammatory attributes of the drug Phenytoin can relieve the symptoms of osteoarthritis in some patients. You should spend less time being critical of me as it pertains to the therapeutic value of a prescribed drug, and more time paying down your student loan from the University of Phoenix.

Distal phalanges is only word salad when used in the sentence "Phenytoin is used to treat most types of distal phalanges", which is what you wrote. A phalanx (the singular of phalanges) is an anatomic word and "distal" refers to the end farther away from the body (it's the opposite of "proximal"). So what you wrote is like writing "Tylenol is used to treat most types of heads."

Yes, osteoarthritis affects the interphalangeal joints (arthritis refers to joints, not bones which the phalanges are). However, antiinflammatories in clinical trials are marginally effective for osteoarthritis, with little difference between antiinflammatories (like ibuprofen) and non-antiinflammatory analgesics (like acetominphen).

Phenytoin is not an effective antiinflammatory, it is not used therapeutically for osteoarthritis, and in fact it is known to worsen osteoarthritis in rare cases (Eur J Intern Med. 2001 Sep;12(5):448-450). It has been studied for rheumatoid arthritis which is a completely different disease than osteoarthritis, and it has had some efficacy in those few studies, but it is not in clinical use because there are numerous better, safer drugs for RA. It's a very toxic drug that has limited use, almost exclusively for acute and chronic seizure management (it's probably used off-label for some refractory psychiatric disorders and severe neuropathic pain disorders as well, but that's not my specialty so I'm not sure). Phenytoin has a LOT of toxicities, including drug interactions, hepatotoxicity, and drug rashes, so its use is pretty limited.

As for my medical training, Harvard Medical School and the University of Connecticut School of Medicine have been kind enough to be my homes for the last 11 years of my medical career, and I've just taken a faculty position as one of the core teachers in the internal medicine and med-peds residencies at Duke Medical School. I hold three board certifications, two licenses, DEA certification, and a number of publications and awards. But hey, you were close.

Why are we fighting about this, by the way? Oh, because you called it a cardiac drug and I said that it wasn't. Can we just get back to the topic now?

1 Reply

@Doobah47,

So can someone surmarise the ground covered so far, with regards to drugs and violence? >.> :p

1 Reply

@de budding,

I'd love to:

Drugs are fantastic; recreational drugs are fun and medicinal drugs are more fun than death (which is a grand accolade if you ask me).

Violence happens, like sh*t, although there's some kind of something involved when we don't do it.

And finally the USA is some kind of water closet filled with coca-cola...

1 Reply

@Doobah47,

I'd like to interject with the concept of peace.

Drugs tend to make the user peaceful; cocaine, marijuana, opiates, amphetamines all promote states of being that tend not to incur violent acts. However, I only say this with reference to personal experience, and I would love to add that drugs are never at fault for any kind of problem they cause, it is the people consuming and prescribing the drugs who are at fault - so if you want to cite example x of crack-cocaine user z shooting heroin dealer y, stealing his stash and making off with his mobile phone then please omit the fact that the proponent of said murder was high at the time.

Secondly, so called 'recreational' drugs do exactly what it says on their tin - they are a cause of RECREATION, which is exactly what our existence is, sober or strung-out. People create creations inspired by intoxication, an example might be testosterone injections causing the user to create vast piles of cash, or marijuana users creating opulent jazz works, or viagra users creating babies, or cocaine users creating massive psychological/philosophical doctrines - everybody is on drugs whether we like it or not, oxygen starvation causes an 'effect' or 'altered state' so if it could ever be said that oxygen consumption does not cause an 'altered state' it would be ludicrous, ridiculous and patently incorrect.

All these human people ever seem to come up with is some sort of mishapen dichotomy - x is EITHER 'good' or if not it is therefore 'bad'. Many things are both, 'recreational' drugs is a perfect example - some eedjut takes cocaine for 10 years and dies age 32 so people cite cocaine as a bad, dangerous thing that must be eliminated, yet the same person might say that the user should have spoken to someone about his problem - exactly what he probably did on cocaine. Or a heroin user who is invited to a rehab clinic where there is no love for the guy, just a nurse to clean up his puke; many people say "oh heroin made him sick, it must be bad..." yet they fail to realize the patent ineptitude of a rehab clinic, or in fact a society one might add, that fails to proffer love to those individuals who require warm and cozy feelings.

It's a cold cold world and people do the dumb thing and blow up the fridge...

2 Replies

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