Faith and miracles

That's a good question that I hadn't thought about quite like that before. After thinking a bit...

I think the problem is in the first sentence, though. God has not left us with no reasons for faith, on the contrary there are many reasons to believe. But He doesn't absolutely "prove" Himself to everyone (or maybe anyone?). There is an element of reason(based on what we see/hear/etc) and an element of faith that works together. In the Old Testament God (through Moses) told His people that one of the tests of a true prophet was that what he said would come true. So God does not expect us to simply "believe" in defiance of reality. But if at some point God gives further "proof" of Himself to someone who should understand the signs, then to disbelieve in that circumstance is evidence of a hard or disbelieving heart.

Another reason that I believe Jesus performed the miracles He did was to demonstrate His nature of love and healing. Really, I believe it is through Jesus that we best learn about the character of God.

Hope that was helpful... Just a few thoughts. Feel free to ask more or push me out on this as I don't want to give a pat answer that doesn't do the question justice.

Ciana5

This may help some:
God proves His presents by Mercy to His people. Thus the mercy to those who called upon Jesus while He walked with His people received mercy. God verifying that Jesus is who He says He is. Even Jesus said that it was by the power of the Father did He do such things and He told others that if you do not believe His Word believe His works, for they only could of been from God. If I may say the Master of reality. For the record there is a common Hebrew name for God that translates to Master of All.


And the same works or "miracles" also came to pass through the Apostles. God verifying His presents with them. And God being Glorified, of corse. Miracles by the worlds view, and Mercy of God by the recipients view, such as healing. Mercy of God to His people. A power no one can deny His people. They can deny it unto themselves, but not to the recipients of God's Mercy. No matter what the wrath of man and his denial of God, or hatred toward God, they can not stop God's Mercy to His people. What should be feared, is the mercy of God for His people.

And that mercy is through Jesus the Christ.

Now in both of your answers you mention that God/Jesus-Christ want to prove His mercy, the nature of His love, healing. Here is my main dilemma: September 1st, 2004, Beslan, the event basically sucked out most of the faith I had, if I have any left. 334 dead, 186 of them innocent children, pure of heart and mind. "People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.' And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them" Now could someone pleae explain to me where Mercy, Love and Healing is? And I've heard the famous argument "God left the choice in the hearts of men" I find it a very convenient argument for religion, hey, everything wrong blame it on men, every little miracle attribute it to God, doesn't it all sound a little hypocritical???

Although not related to that acutual event, similar questions I have wrestled with have easily been the greatest test of my own faith as well. I have little to say in response, and although answers seem to abound in some thological circles, not many of them that I have heard have have really seemed to do much but further complicate the situation, and I continue to fight with the issue to this very day. (And that's not a figure of speech, I have lain awake at night this week thinking about it.)

The little bit I have to say is this: I believe that all the wrongs that occur in this world (which are many) will be righted when this world ends. Most people would call this Judgement Day, and though I agree that judgment will be a part of it, I think that the greater picture described in the Bible is a time when God rights all the wrongs. I don't know how He will do this. That is a struggle of faith.

As far as why He allows evil in the first place, I don't have a nice pat answer for that either, although we can see that at least it has some purpose. One purpose is that without the choice towards evil, the choice of good means very little. But that idea hardly seems to justify the suffering of people for things that were not their choice, does it? :confused: Again at this point I have to return to the idea that God will right the wrongs. Another thing I think that is worth noting here is that Evil and suffering have definite limits, which I believe God set. Of course, these limits seem much, much too high to me. But that is from my standpoint, and I must trust that God has a purpose in mind that is worthy of the suffering He allows. It reminds me of a quote from the Silmarillion (JRR Tolkien). though not exact, it goes something like this: "Evil may have been good to have been, but yet remain evil." I have to take by faith that God from his perpective can see much more than I can, and I must accept that I (a finite man) am not in a place to judge Him.

Now why, with all of these problems, would I continue to believe in the goodness and love God? Through the ways that he has revealed Himself to us. And I believe Jesus is His clearest revelation. If I (as a man) can not judge the motives of God in Heaven, perhaps I can somewhat judge the motives of God as a man. And what does He demonstrate when He was a man? Love, patience, healing, wholeness, self-sacrifice, selflessness, purity, forgiveness, and all the things we hope for God to be. And in all these areas Jesus surpasses every other man I have ever heard of. To be put to an undeserved and excruciating death, at the hands of those who you came to help, and after their rejection, and then in the moment of worst pain to plead for their forgiveness. Wow.

Now all I can say is that if God in Heaven shares those qualities with God as Man, then I believe that all will be made right, and that all that is should be, and that God's motivation behind all this must be love (selfless love). If He experienced pain for the sake of others when He was a man, I believe He does the same as God in Heaven.

The current state of things might not please Him (and might actually cause Him a great deal of pain), but He must know that all will be made right. I can trust that this is true because He revealed His character in Jesus. And that is what my faith hangs on.

Ok, so maybe I had more than a "little" to say. Probably because its still raw for me...

Again, questions and crituques are more than welcome. This is a tough issue.

I too have taken issue with this idea, but I'm not sure what to do with it. One thing that I think I've seen is that in the Old Testament (at least), both good and bad are excepted (directly or indirectly) as from God, though God's motives are never said to be bad. Job is an excellent example of this. I think that the modern "warm-fuzzies only" God doesn't make sense in the real world. But because people like it they have to simplify everything else to fit. I think the real world is more complex than the scenerio presented in your quote. (Though I think your quote is an accurate protrayal of a common idea in modern Christianity.)

There haven't been any miracles since the time of Christ, or shortly after.
So when it comes to thanking god for those...it's already been done, hasn't it?

The issue I have with this topic is that you are allowing one specific moment to dissolve your faith, and not taking a look at the overall picture.
Mankind is here to make choices as to how our lives are made successful or not, on a daily basis. The choices we make are not within God's desire to change, since when he originally made us, he gave us freedom of choice, and stated he would simply show us a path of righteousness and allow us to make our own decisions.
He does not personally hold the hand of every man woman and child on earth until they are seen safely into a new life. He has given us the tools to use, and the means to decipher them.
It is up to us to make the difference.
Those children are a shameful illustration to what happens when mankind - not god - decides to pursue a different path. It was human decision to destroy those lives, and it was human hands that pressed the button.

When Jesus said "let the children come to me for they are innocent" he may have been simply stating that they are free from harm after death as children, since they were not old enough or wise enough to make their own decisions before they died.

I don't mean to hijack this thread or start an argument, but I disagree here. My grandparents story is one of the few things that I have never been able to doubt. (I thought maybe this should be its own thread, but then decided that it has everything to do (for me) with Faith and Miricles, so here it goes:) )

During a short time period when God became very real to them, there were a number of healings, as well as some other events that I would believe to be miracles, though I know that could be debated. What I know comes from first hand stories from the most trustworthy and honest people I have ever known, and from others that knew them and have no conflicting interest in the story. There story was also (many years later) put into book form, so anyone who wanted to disagree has had ample oportuninty to do so.

During this time my Grandmother was cured of depression, while the doctors were suggesting the my Grandfather place her in an institution. She was changed in a matter of week into the loving, selfless, outgoing, and joyful person that she continued to be throughout the rest of her life. (She died last January)

Also near that time, one of their sons (who had been bed-ridden) was healed of a heart murmur brought on by rheumatic fever, and a daughter was healed of chronic nephritis (kidney disease) after a prayer and request for healing.

My Grandfather was healed of a spinal injury. Years earlier he had fallen 36 feet, head-first, onto a concrete floor. He survived, but his back was obviously injured and continued to deteriorate as he continued to run a farm. He was not a complainer, and grit his teeth and worked through the pain until one day he collapsed and couldn't move. If anyone touched his back or moved him he would be in excruciating pain. X-rays at the hospital showed that his back was destroyed. They were going to operate on him, and then leave him in a neck-to-knee cast for weeks (I think 6), without any assurance of recovery. That evening, two friends of his (who didn't know each other) arrived to his room withing 30 seconds of each other. Both had come because they believed God wanted them to come and pray for Norman (my grandpa). They said a short, simple prayer and left. Over the course of the night, my grandpa's pain subsided and by morning he felt fine! Long story short: The doctors were in disbelief for quite a while, but after seeing him walk and move with no pain and no relapse, he was allowed to leave a few days later. There was (is) no medical explanation for how that could have happend. His back never gave him problems again, though his right hand was always a little disfigured from the original fall.

Of course, since it was real life, there is much, much more to the story. (all of which, by the way, makes the story more miraculous, not less. ) Their life was not always healings and roses from that point on, but it was a life of joy and full of purpose. And yes, there were more miracles at times, but they also understood (and taught) that we don't always get what we want, but that we can (and should) ask. For what it's worth, none of the medical problems I mentioned ever returned, and that happened in the early fifties (if I did my math right :rolleyes: ).

Why did God do that for them? I don't know all the answers, and it's certainly not because they were (or became) perfect. But I do know that their life showed that they were willing to give everything (and they did just about that) to serve Him. I also know that through their story many people have come to know God better. Which reminds me of what I said about Jesus and miracles a few posts ago: at times God reveales Himself in specific ways so that we can know and believe in His true character in spite of the world that we see around us. (Needless to say, my grandparents were in a very ugly spot in life before the time I'm describing. Yet they believed in God's goodness before they saw it, and in the end they did see it. )

And unfortunately, now you are hearing this story 2nd hand, which makes it much harder to believe and appreciate. But for me, their story (and I've told only a little part) has been a solid truth that I can't ignore even if I want to, and a foundation when I've needed it.

By the way, if you want to find the book: It's by Norman Charles and is called Heaven on Earth Family Style. (And this isn't a plug, since I don't think anyone related to me makes and $ off of them. I just think it's a good read... :p )

Edited to say: All this is not to say that no hoaxes have been around.(And there have been) It's just to say that I know of a story that is real.

Where is the beef? All believers in Christian miracles, flying saucers and ghosts get your rather weak heads to together. What is it with you? Does something have to be completely unfounded before it attracts your attention. If it does not violate natural laws, the physical laws we all know and love, it ain't a miracle. What you do not understand is not necessarily supernatural. Allah is great!!!:eek: born from the thigh of Zeus!!

boagie
good to see your still around
I do agree "where's the beef?", that truly is the problem with us all, the rest, your on your own.

I realize you could explain this off but I will tell you anyways:

We, my wife and I, did a road trip on motorcycles to the Black Hills SD from Quartzsite looping through states Utah Wyoming then Colorado we were on I 40 just a few miles out of Denver and while I was passing a 18 wheeler my bike was wiggling but that was not unusual because the wind around a tracker trailer can bat you around a little. As soon as I got into the slow lane in front of the truck the wiggle was going out of control. So I am going at lest 70 mph in front of the truck, I just passed, I suddenly realized that I was riding a flat, My mind said, as I was trying to slow down gradually, this is death, and I said oh Jesus, and my mind said, this is serious hospital time, I said oh Jesus, and it came to mind to hit the rear brake to go slow as possible to have a chance. Then the rear of the bike of 800+ lbs plus, and at lest over 100 lbs of luggage, slid until I was sideways and the bike stopped on a dime. The momentum of the bike through me off forwards and I rolled in the middle of moving traffic. Expecting no less then real pain which I have a very low threshold for. Note no helmet required in Colorado. Once done rolling I realized I was not broken anywhere and saw the tracker trailer bearing down as he was gearing down to try and stop. I ran to the shoulder. Now as a retired employee of the PA Turnpike I can tell you that most death of bikers on interstates is not the spill they have, it is the traffic driving as if nothing can go wrong running them over. The luggage was intact, nothing fell off but me, the bike had no damage to anything except one little peace of plastic which stayed on and is still not noticeable unless I show you. Now my bike is a goldwing which is covered allover with plastic. I had a scrap or two but not even a bleeder. The state trooper said he has never seen a bike ascendent with no damage, and no injury. And I can tell you highway patrol sees a ton of accidents. Yes you can call this anything you want, but I can tell you it is the mercy of God no matter how you slice it. And for the record and I know you don't think God talks to people but it was for my growth in faith that this happen because the Lord told me two days before that something upsetting was going to happen and it would not stop the vacation and no one was going to be harmed, you can take that any way you like. It was only for my understanding of His mercy. The event in and of itself means nothing without the Lord telling me what was to be so. You can go after this one story if you like, but I have a relationship with God that is daily, so this is not the only event in my experience with God.

God's Mercy is the one thing that no power can stop, not even death. It is by God's mercy that anything exists at all. For all is received of God. Out of nothing did He make all that there is. Our privilege as creatures is that we can know His Mercy and be confident there in. That is the Faith of those who follow Jesus, (not necessarily christians) that the power of God's Mercy given through the Glory of the cross shall stand forever.

As far as such issues as storms and title waves and earthquakes the Creator is the Judge and righteousness not us, were did we get righteousness from, dirt, water, the cosmos, a brain fart, what? If righteousness is not of us we have no right to judge, for how can we expect righteousness from others when we have none of ourselves. Therefore it is only the mercy of God that gives us Life. And that is His righteousness and justice. And what part of His creation shall tell Him what is right or wrong, what is just and unjust. Seek His Mercy, given freely, through and in Jesus, then you will understand.

Another little note if I may:
when Moses went up on the mountain and asked for mercy from God for the stiff-necked Israelites and Moses saw His Glory, in the Lord's presents words that proclaimed the Lord were: Ex:34:
6: And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7: Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin,
Moses had to wear a vail when he was around the people for his face shined so much. And when he went into the tabernacle he toke it off and when he went out of the tabernacle he would wear it. Now if you were in Moses' shoes at that time, the Light would be shining from your face there fore everything you faced would be in the Light, you could not see darkness. If some one was to say look there is darkness you would say, where I see no darkness.

First, my grandpa's healing certainly violated at least the laws of medicine.

For what it's worth, I'm actually of a very skeptical nature and tend to be very cautious of any crazy claims. But this is not one that I can ignor or write off as hysterical nonsense. That's exactly why the experiences of my grandparents "attracts my attention". Boagie, I wish you had a chance to know my grandparents... They were some of the most down to earth and reasonable people I've known. And my grandpa was NOT one for exageration or dramatization, in fact he would better be classified as quite the opposite. From you're standpoint, I guess you can disbelieve the stories, but for someone who experiences them it would be plain ignorance to say that the facts did not point to the supernatural. There were a number of other healings and unexplainable occurances that occured during their lifetime. And even if you could say that somehow the natural laws or physics somehow influenced all of those events, how would you explain the relationship of these, um... unexpected turns of nature (or whatever you'd call them) and their relation to prayer? Even if you don't agree with the conclusion, you have to admit that it's hard to explain away.

And one more thng: What's with the cocky attitude that assumes the supernatural can not be reality. I don't believe in ET's, but I don't think I'd ever act as if I can prove they don't exist. (And if you reply with "I didn't say I can prove that they don't exist", I would then repeat my first question: What's with the attitude?) I presented clear evidence of why I believe in miracles. What is your evidence to say that they don't? And your evidence ought to be more convincing than mine if you expect me to change my mind.

PS. Sorry to the original poster if I took this way of track.

dpMartin, [ still beating out the same message Martin.]

That is a well built soapbox indeed Martin, but just as faith is defined by its lack of knowledge, miracles are defined by the physical law/s they have overridden to manifest themselves. I am unaware of any miracles having occurred, even those spoken of in the bible cannot be substantiated and are most suspect of being fantasy. Again, the unknown does not necessarily belong to the supernatural but just speaks of human limitations. Both faith and miracles speak of ignorance of the modern world, they both deny reason, making ignorance sacred.

Neitherextreme,

Perhaps you could outline for us the natural laws violated in the process of healing your loved ones. You say hard to explain, indeed, hard to explain does not spell supernatural. I would suggest you keep at least one foot within the realm of reality. Or would you like to swing on a star------ carry moon beams home in a jar!! Fiction deserves respect only in its own catagory, in other words, fiction as fiction, fiction as anything else does not warrant respect.






"We have to recognize atheists' full freedom to believe God does not exist, but we don't have to embrace atheism as a social good. In fact, I would argue that atheism has no redeeming social value."

:eek: Holy ****, you're right! Atheism has no redeeming social value! How can we possibly get out of this one? Oh, wait, here are three ways we can get out of this one: "Not believing in Santa Claus has no redeeming social value," "Not believing in Leprechauns has no redeeming social value," and "Not believing in the Loch Ness Monster has no redeeming social value." In fact, we can come up with a lot more than three of those. The point, of course, is that no **** the absence of a belief in a made-up thing does not inherently have "redeeming social value." We're not arguing that it does.:p

Boagie
Soapbox? That's old school, isn't it?

What is so different about the "modern world"? Human nature never changes, even if he/she has new toys to play with. If you mean; atheism as a philosophy, it's been around probably as long as any other philosophy, or belief structure. (don't hold me to that, probably under other names if any).


If I may:

1. Why do you say faith is ignorance? Other than I can't prove it to you, or your not going to trust faith as presented.

2. What do you say is master of reality then?

dpmartin,

What does change about human nature is man knowledge of it, no thanks to the faithful. Atheism is not really complicated, it simple says it does not believe your unfounded premises. The reason the numbers show as they do reguarding the faithful in America is the same reason the numbers show as they do in most Muslim communities where there are no non-believers, there to be a non-believer is to be marked for death. In the good U S Of A it just means you cannot hold political office and your kids will be sent home from school crying for being different and/or devil worshippers. News flash-22w we do not believe in your devil either or in evil spirits in general.

1."Why do you say faith is ignorance?"

Because in the presence of knowledge is would be redundant. Indeed faith is used as the term will, dispite having no foundation for said belief, I WILL believe it. If this is not the full embrace of ignorance I do not know what is. I as well watch old friends whom have locked themselves into to this commitment of faith, and their discomfort at any unfolding new scientific knowledge, there is a desire to withdraw on their part in order not to have to deal with what I would term, insistent reality.


If anything is master of reality it has to be reason, perhaps reason along with the scientific method, to abandon reason is insane, in the case of religion it is religious insanity, something done consciously,willingly.

boagie, just because we can't understand or explain miracles doesn't mean that they aren't a part of reality. I realize that the same could be said for any half-cooked idea, but if substantial evidence presents itself, then it would be foolish to toss it out without any thought given to the matter. As for the actual events of my grandpa's healing, I think they speak for themselves as defying the natural laws of medicine (nature). But... if you don't agree with me there, you must at least say that all these things happening in a short time period, all occuring with prayer, is at least a very difficult thing to dismiss as coincidence. "No, still easy to dismiss" you say... That is because you are coming from a (IMO un-sustainable) world view that says that the supernatural does not exist. At this point our differnce is our basic world views, and sarcastic debating over details will not get either of us anywhere, so I will have to bow out of that one for the sake of our future ablilty to communicate.

Just some final thoughts about where I'm coming from, as opposed to what you seem to assume: I am by nature a skeptic to a flaw. But I have come to understand that the Doubt of the skeptic and the Belief of the fanatic are really very similar. Put another way... It is as easy, natural, and sometimes foolish, for the skeptic to doubt as it is for the fanatic to believe. My honest desire is to not fall into the folly of either of these two extremes. Being the natural skeptic that I am, I have put most (if not all) of my core beliefs through the furnace and crucible of skepticism, cynisim, and doubt. Hopefully what has survived has been refined and what hasn't survived was indeed false. Of course my success in this is up for debate, but I have indeed put much time, effort, and toil in the quest to avoid the traps that lay on either side of path of understanding the truth. I hope that you are doing the same, and that we can assist each other to those ends. And believe it or not, I hope that we will always keep one foot within the realm of reality, and do our best to get the second one there as well.

Neitherextreme,

You are of course right, the essential difference between us is in the belief in the supernatural. There is nothing in my lifes experience nor knowledge acquired which would allow for a supernatural figure existing and involveing itself with the human condition. There never has been what one might call a miracle, as I stated earlier the absence of understanding does not infer the supernatural but simply human limitations. I do however believe there is a power in belief, whether that belief be negative or postive, belief in and of itself has a power, psychological power. I don't believe you are in danger of extremeness if you ask for a foundation on which to build a given belief, indeed there is something quite odd about those you do not require such a foundation, I would say that is extreme.

I do try to understand those who make such rash statements of belief, I believe they are functioning on an emotional level that allows them to take these leaps of faith. Many times I have been told by the faithful that if one is to be born again the leap of faith required involves leaveing reason behind. These same people will argue for the rationality of their faith---------it is difficult to afford them respect, and for me, difficult to trust those whom turn their backs on reason. You are right though, dialogue often seems futile between the believer and the non-believer, withdrawl may be practical but it is unproductive as well.

I can totally understand where you're comming from, and empathize (ie, I feel it too) with your frustration, and have often felt left out in the cold by the Organized Church when it comes to matters of belief.

At the same time I want to apologize as a believer in Jesus on behalf of Christianity as a whole for the many times that they have expected the thinking and questioning minds to fall in line while turning a blind eye to the problems.

I do not believe that we should (nor do I in practice) throw out reason. And like I said before, I believe that in any complete world view (even atheism) there is an element of reason and an element of faith working together. For me, reason dictates that the something outside this universe must exist, as what I see in nature can not explain itself. The mere existance of the universe seems to point to this, and the existance of organized nature seals that for me. (Natural laws must have been defeated an infinate amount of times for organization of the current universe, especially life in particular.) So it is in large part reason itself (faulty or otherwise) that grounds me in the supernatural. From there I continue on the quest to understand what I see and know, but since I can't flat-out prove anything (due to its grounding in the supernatural vs the natural), there will always be a certain amount of faith required.

I think that the honest search (not a search for proof of my pre-assumtions) for truth is important. And I can honestly say that the basics of the Christian faith, the teachings of Jesus and his followers, as well as the practical demonstration of those in the lives of my grandparents (both in the mundane and in the hard-to-explain), make the most sense (reason) to me, as well as ring the truest in my heart (faith). To me, this is the proper working of reason and faith together, and what I aim for. And though there are times when the two seem to be at odds, there is an overall sense of unity for me.

And for what its worth: It has been difficult for me as a skeptic (as well as one who has been exposed to many different cultures) to believe that I could have actually been born into a family that believed "correctly", so my beliefs are no simply parroting back what my parents would have said. There are parts and pieces that we don't agree on, although we do agree on the bulk and basics, and like I said- the beliefs that I still hold have been through the furnace. And, I am not in the least offended by people who don't agree or would question my beliefs. I don't hold a lot of intelectual "sacred cows" that can't be openly discussed, as I have seriously questioned most (if not all) of them myslef.

neitherextreme,

Well it sounds like you feel yourself pretty much justified in your beliefs, but at the same time you do not seem arrogant, that is a quality that leaves room for dabate at least. It does sound to me though that what you take as supernatural is the very wonder of the universe. My problem with believers of different traditions is in their concretizing this mystery as a deity, such that they in fact close the door on wonder. The source, the support, the unknown which supports the known, becomes for these people known as their deity, it is a violation of wonder and in my opinion, lacks spirituality.

Thanks boagie, and I do hope that I leave room for debate. If what I believe is the truth, then it should not only be able to survive the light of careful examination, but be enriched by it. If it proves otherwise, then it probably wasn't worth protecting in the first place.

As far as the wonder vs concrete diety idea goes, I think I can see what you are saying, and agree that at times this has happened. But I also see that atheism, evolutionism, and modern science have robbed many people of the wonder of universe. Seeing the wonder in the universe seems more like a personal choice than an issue of creeds. For the believers in Diety, they can look at the universe and see the wonder of their Diety and of His incredible creation. Or they can choose to ignore it. The atheist has a similar choice, though I personally don't understand what would be understood through the wonder. Maybe you can help me understand that a little better...

Also, I was wondering what spirituality means to you?