Is Prayer The Last Vestige Of Sympathic Magic

@boagie,

Duality is apparent everywhere as far as I can see.

In myself: Truly striving to live according to the principles of God will very quickly reveal an extremely powerful tendency toward pride and selfishness.

In society: As I described in my other post--there is a spiritual duality occurring in the world.

I don't believe God needs the devil to be good anymore than I need an evil twin to be good. I am who I am. God says, I AM that I AM.

I do believe there are many spirits to choose from--but only One Holy Spirit. I will concede I don't know everything about the spiritual realm so I will leave the discerning of spirits to each individual.

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine, Smile

We live in far different worlds,but good as in god does depend upon the evil as devil for its defination,it is a reciprocal dependancy without good there would be no evil,it has to have something to bounce off of, to define it.You cannot have a good god unless there exist that which is not good, as in evil devil. Very Happy

Duality is the world,non-duality is eden.The focus of christianity is upon duality, the focus of the eastern traditions and modern physics is non-duality.You are right however,duality is apparent meaning obvious,it takes some effort to see the world as non-duality.

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@boagie,

:mad: We need a devil smilie! Wink

So, are you saying that you do not see duality in the world? Philosophy is a great exercise, but I think it has a tendency to stray from the obvious at times. There is love your neighbor as yourself . . . or . . . CYA. You sacrifice for what you want, would you sacrifice for what your neighbor wants? Without Christ that is an impossible reconciliation. It is also the basis for world peace. There are people who heal life in self sacrifice and people who destroy life in fits of self indulged rage. How do eastern religions and modern thinks reconcile this?

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@Katherine phil,

Hi Katherine,

Actually non-duality is said to be the source of our morality.I know Christians believe their morality was given to them through their religion but in reality morality predates any religion.It is this morality that has constructed religions.Each time you identify with another in compassion you bridge that gap that time and space creates in telling you of your separateness.When Jesus said,love thy neighbour as thy self,I think this was his meaning,the other is you,if not it should have been.

As far as the eastern traditions and modern science are concerned there is a looking passed the obvious,example in general systems theory it is pointed out that even the old method of science of reductionism/cutting up into parts,misses the point,as one can only understand something as a functioning whole,parts are said to be holons,in that they are systems within systems,until the ultimate system is the universe of which we do not know if it is a closed or open system.As much as Christianity focuses upon duality,which does lend itself to comparison, judgement ect..,the eastern traditions focus equally on non-duality.When speaking to Christians I am often taken back when I find out they do not even realize what Eden is,before the fall,there was no duality,this was Eden.

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@boagie,

I'm surprised you would run across such Christians because that is pretty much the point of our faith. There was no separation from God in the garden and there will be no separation from God when Christ returns. But while we are on the earth, surrounded by sin, we will need to continuously die to that sinful nature and surroundings to receive the freedom that comes from what Christ provided for us on the cross.

So, back to the prayer issue . . . in spite of the influence of spiritual forces in the earth, we, having a free will and free thoughts, have a choice to make.

Who do you put your faith in?

The ancient deceiving spirit (older than religion) that appeals to the worldly nature, the one that denies there is an ultimate authority or at least convinces those who follow it that this authority has no authority or even an opinion at all? A spirit who, as in Eden, convinces its victims that we can be like God Himself? (The most comforting belief system)

Or the ancient Spirit (older than religion) that brings us the truth of our fallen situation, our need for deliverance and then fully delivers us?

The ideas of man have not changed in thousands of years. The very same arguments are discussed in the Bible. And they make a very frail and limited god.

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine, Smile

It is obvious you are here to convert and/or preach,not to worry at this site it is totally acceptable.It is frustrating for some however,that this expounding of ones beliefs really isn't philosophy.Actually that business of Christians not knowning Christian symbolism is very very common,it is my experience that other than what they are told,or told to read in scripture they never think on their own.To me wonder is an important part of spirituality,and many religions when claiming all is the product of their god have closed the door on wonder,so to me it does not have the vitality that it should.Actually at this site you are better suited than I,but I am still here aren't I.:eek:

No offense but you will find the longer your here the more people of like mind you will meet,it just is not me. May the good spirits be with you! Boagie:)

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@boagie,

The topic was prayer. My perspective is Christian. Nothing more.

My faith is overflowing with vitality. But it starts with faith. Christ is one of those things we can't study from a distance. And I like science and philosophy, but to base our understanding of life on either is faith just the same as if it were based on religion. Except without evidence of their authority. I just think they all make lousy gods.

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine wrote:

The topic was prayer. My perspective is Christian. Nothing more.

My faith is overflowing with vitality. But it starts with faith. Christ is one of those things we can't study from a distance. And I like science and philosophy, but to base our understanding of life on either is faith just the same as if it were based on religion. Except without evidence of their authority. I just think they all make lousy gods.

Katherine, Smile

The difficult thing I have found in dealing with Christians is getting them to admitt what is faith,by defination it is the absence of knowledge.In fact in the presence of knowledge there is no need of faith,belief must then be willed and only will.You talk of spirits good and bad, with no bases whatsoever to be found in the real world.No an interest in science and/or philosophy does not equal faith,for one thing they are a quest for knowledge,and that is all they promise.Actually you are quite right science and/or philosophy would make lousy gods,that is why I suppose they are not consider such.Faith will always belong to those whom wish to believe something,yet cannot find a real foundation for such belief.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

The difficult thing I have found in dealing with Christians is getting them to admitt what is faith,by defination it is the absence of knowledge.

Perhaps because that is not true. Like I said, it is fun to theorize about philisophical reasoning, but we have to stay grounded in reality. Granted, we are discussing a reality I live in and one you have only theorized about, but a reality just the same.

Abraham was the father of our faith. The story goes, God told Abraham he was going to be the father of a nation. Abraham had no problem believing in God, that was not his faith battle. He knew God, God spoke to him, he interacted with him--He's real! His faith was required to believe that God could give him a child in his old age.

God is made evident in all that is around us. That does not require faith to believe. Every tribe in every section of the world worships without any evangelizing. That is evidence that there is an inherent knowledge of all mankind that God is real. It takes special conditioning from our education systems to believe otherwise. We only need faith to learn to trust God, not to affirm His exsistence.

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine, Smile

I suppose any state of mind one is invested in could be said to be a reality,when one goes to the movies,off we go into another reality.We would have to establish some ground rules for what is reality.It would have to manifeast itself to those who are expected to believe it as physical reality.

These stories you quote are not only hearsay,but two thousand year old hearsay,this is what frightens the unbeliever,when he considers how many believers are in places of political power.Interpreting the modern world through a two thousand year old text is insane,but one cannot commit the majority.

It is true that humanity is mythological compelled,but all that really means is they experience a common insecurity,a common desire to understand and explain the world they find themselves in.Their mythology generally comes from their experience of their environment,thus adapting them to their environment.At one time thunder was the voice of god,I imagine for some Christians it still is.Do tell us where god is made evident,all around us you say,are you then saying that nature is god,god is the totality,a Spinoza type god? No,I know you are not,god is an old man with a bad disposition isn't he.This majority of Christians makes me feel like I am in the movie,"Invasion Of The Body Snatchers" they keep trying to leave a pod under my bed when I sleep,I cannot sleep,no,I will not sleep.:eek: Christians are as scary as Muslims,birds of feather so to speak with the same principle at work,magical thinking.:eek:

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@boagie,

Well, if you cannot win the argument on an intellectual level, you can always resort to wild comparisons and insults to distract from the topic.

There seems to be a lot of emotion, especially fear, driving your view point. I hope you overcome that spirit. Thank you for your discussion. I enjoyed it.

Katherine

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine wrote:

Well, if you cannot win the argument on an intellectual level, you can always resort to wild comparisons and insults to distract from the topic.

There seems to be a lot of emotion, especially fear, driving your view point. I hope you overcome that spirit. Thank you for your discussion. I enjoyed it.

Katherine, Smile

I am sorry if you take it highly personal,it is in fact an utter generalization.I never think there is an argument to win with Christians and if it is a insult as I said,it is to believers in general,not even limited to Christians.Take comfort my dear,you are the majority,at least in the states and at this site.There certainly is fear there,fear these warring mythologies will lead to a last world war,the lack of reason envolved is frightening.Actually it has been your misfortune to bump into me,as I stated earlier there is a majority of like minded Christians here,so hopefully your experience can only get better.Have a little compassion Katherine,imagine how popular I am here! COME OVER TO THE DARK SIDE! May the good spirits be with you Katherine! Boagie:)

Reason is the enemy of faith.
Luther, Martin - Wink

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@boagie,

Boagie- I don't believe it was a misfortune that Katherine bumped into you because the communication is good. Whether Christianity or Muslim or any other interpretation, the philosophy of human relations is the most important yet most overlooked at all.

Katherine - as far as prayer, I think Jesus did a great job of explaining this in Mathew 6. I've posted in regards to both Christianity and Prayer in this post. If you look back you can follow the thread.

Now as far as the apple being eaten first by Eve and then by Adam, I've also posted on this subject as well. The story we are referring to wasn't written until 4000 years after the fact. Whether it's in the Bible or not, makes no difference because there was a lot of writings taken out of the publication of the Bible.

Being raised Christian myself, I found more politics and judgment coming from the pulpit than anything else and this was in every Church I was in. In my own experience, trying to mold my life around Christianity, I discovered with the Christians I encountered that they ignore most of the teachings of Jesus when it comes to prayer and judgment. Much is picked out of the Bible that fits the Church and then the rest is the Preachers, or leaders interpretation of it.

In my findings, the Church I have found is within me. Prayer, just as Jesus describes in Mathew 6:[INDENT] 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
[/INDENT]Prayer is fantastic when it's practiced in the way the Jesus describes. I don't think for a moment that it's Magic but then again, magic isn't a part of my world so I can't speak on that. When it comes down to it, prayer is that silent communication with God that can only be found when one, "enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret". The truth and abundance any of us seek will not be found in a Synagogue or Church filled with Christians all following the leader of the Church. It can only be found in the still waters that run deep within us.

That's my experience with Prayer. I have nothing against Christians for I once called myself one until I actually learned how to pray and I didn't learn how to pray from the Christian Church.

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@Justin,

Not personal, but if you're not interested in discussing the topic any longer, let's not. I'm bored with the regurgitated 'all religious people are like terrorists' tripe. It's a pretty foolish comparison intended to be inflammatory. But thanks for toning your post down a bit. Funny how 'generalized' statements are racist or intolerant to anyone but Christians. Let's just not be hypocritical. Wink

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@Katherine phil,

Hey Justin,

That verse is an important one, but it isn't the only reference to prayer. We have to be careful about taking one particular verse and not reading it in context with the rest of the story. Jesus prayed out loud for the entire chapter 17 in John and several other places so the idea that Jesus said we should only pray in secret in not accurate.

And I am very sorry you have had such bad experiences with churches, I've had bad experiences with doctors, too. They're self-righteous, condescending and hypocritical and medical malpractice has actually been attributed with more deaths than injuries themselves--but I haven't sworn off medical help. I just find a better doctor. 'Don't throw the baby out with the bath water', I suppose.

So, I'm curious. What is the purpose of your religion and what is the basis for your understanding of God? I am confused because you claim to give authority to the Bible, credibility to Jesus, yet you ignore the teachings of both in regards to salvation and worship. How does that work?

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@boagie,

Katherine, yes, please read John 17 as I've posted that one as well. In John 17, Jesus raised his hands up and was speaking out to God. I don't know that Jesus considered this prayer because he obviously said it in front of John so that it could be heard and obviously, now documented. Was that prayer or a confirmation of his completed work? To me it seemed like the latter because when Jesus prayed, he did it alone and in silence.

The purpose of my religion...? I'm not sure I follow. As I've said in plenty of other posts, I'm not in any religion nor will I ever be a part of a defined religion. Religion in and of itself has been the cause of more problems in the world than anything else. As far as giving authority to anything, I haven't done that either. If you'll notice, the only thing that I publish in my posts that are in the Bible are the teachings of Jesus. Did Jesus proclaim a religion or did he teach of the oneness of mankind? Here's a little of John 17:
[INDENT] 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[/INDENT]So, in summary, I pray in silence. I don't give authority to anything or anyone because I'm not in any position to do so. I believe the teachings and the life works of Jesus... as far as the rest of the Bible, it's been altered and interpreted over the course of many years. These are stories that took place long long ago, I'm only interested in the story that really matters and that is the story of Christ.

Hopefully I've summed it up for you.

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@Justin,

I still don't understand. Bear with me. Jesus said He was the Messiah, the Son of God, that He have the authority to forgive sins offensible toward God. He said that you must be born again in order to see God. If you believe this, you would be a follower or Jesus Christ, aka 'Christian' because you'd know that we must repent and believe in order to be brought into a right relationship with God and escape the wrath the world is under.

"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:"

The oneness you speak of is oneness with God, then by oneness with God we would have oneness with others. If you believed this, you would be in fellowship with the Body of Jesus which is the church.

If 'talking to God' isn't prayer, then how do you think Jesus defined it?

It seems to me that you are guilty of the same hypocrisy you judge the church by:

Quote:

I discovered with the Christians I encountered that they ignore most of the teachings of Jesus when it comes to prayer and judgment. Much is picked out of the Bible that fits the Church and then the rest is the Preachers, or leaders interpretation of it.

A lot of picking and choosing going on here.

Quote:

As far as giving authority to anything, I haven't done that either.If you'll notice, the only thing that I publish in my posts that are in the Bible are the teachings of Jesus. Did Jesus proclaim a religion or did he teach of the oneness of mankind?

Jesus said He was the Son of God. Either He is the Son of God, or a liar, or a lunatic. You can't pick and choose Him as anything else. It is not logical. If I said I was the queen of Sheba, either I am, or I am lying or I am plain crazy, right?

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine wrote:

Not personal, but if you're not interested in discussing the topic any longer, let's not. I'm bored with the regurgitated 'all religious people are like terrorists' tripe. It's a pretty foolish comparison intended to be inflammatory. But thanks for toning your post down a bit. Funny how 'generalized' statements are racist or intolerant to anyone but Christians. Let's just not be hypocritical.

Katherine, Sad

I am quite willing to discuss further but obviously it will be in a far different tone,and I was being nice,Jesus says blessed are the nice-------lol!! Funny how terrorists and religion are words that attract one another.What race my dear did you hear being offended,as far as intolerance goes, it is against the law for non-believers to hold political office in the United States Of America,do tell me where this tolerance lives.Again the majority are being pick on,the little fellow is waiting for the bullies after school,probably to extort their lunch money.If you wish to experience the warmth of the fold in womb like bliss,you need to find a fully Christian site and just fellow the yellow brickroad[partyline]this ain't Kansas Katherine!:eek:

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@boagie,

Which Church?

Talking to God and praying can be two different things. Born again was mentioned 3 times in the new testament and out of the mouth of Jesus only twice in John. Twice in John 3 when talking to Nicodemus where Jesus explained to him, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God". Then Peter mentions it once in 1 Peter 23.

As far as my hypocrisy you've accused me of, understand that my words were what I discovered in the Christian faith. I'm not judging all Christians because I'm sure there are some out there that are actually earnestly trying to BE LIKE JESUS. Yet, in my experience I've only found but a few. This is not hypocrisy, this is reality.

Yes you are correct, Jesus did say he was the son of God. He also said that we are Sons of God. He further said that we are also Sons of God. The Church teaches that the Kingdom of God is like the land of milk and honey. On the contrary, the Kingdom of God is within all creation. The difference is the ability to see it, not just hope that someday we will pass on to the other side.

No, I don't believe that Jesus was praying in John 17. John may have written it as a prayer but that was not the character of Jesus to pray out loud, nor did Jesus tell us to do the same.

I've chosen the path that's right for me not because someone has told me to and certainly not because of what the Church has taught me. The truth will be found when it's sought after and it will be found in the still light in the fulcrum of our spirit. True and powerful prayer is something that Jesus showed us, told us about and instructed us on how to do.

So, I'm not picking and choosing anything here.

Boagie, Katherine is fine and we're happy to have her here opening up, nothing wrong with that.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

I am quite willing to discuss further but obviously it will be in a far different tone,and I was being nice,Jesus says blessed are the nice-------lol!! Funny how terrorists and religion are words that attract one another.What race my dear did you hear being offended,as far as intolerance goes, it is against the law for non-believers to hold political office in the United States Of America,do tell me where this tolerance lives.Again the majority are being pick on,the little fellow is waiting for the bullies after school,probably to extort their lunch money.If you wish to experience the warmth of the fold in womb like bliss,you need to find a fully Christian site and just fellow the yellow brickroad[partyline]this ain't Kansas Katherine!:p

Well Boagie, it's important that we have everyone here that wishes to participate. Everyone has different beliefs and that's unavoidable. As a Christian, it wouldn't help to spread Christianity if all she did was hang among Christians and I respect that. Actually, many Christians just stay with fellow Christians, and that's no way to build a faith or plant seeds. So I give her credit for being a part of all of this and speaking up. While I may not agree with everything, doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Ultimately we'll find our way.

Thanks for being here both of you and sharing your thoughts.

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Is Prayer The Last Vestige Of Sympathic Magic

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