Is Prayer The Last Vestige Of Sympathic Magic

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Prayer the last vestige

The roots of prayers have their origin in prehistory,probabley predateing any civilization.The furthest we can trace it back is small groups of hunters and gatherers.I have notice myself with a great many people today,that the belief in magic is just below the surface,sometimes right on the surface.

The foundation of,or modivation for,seems to have been the observation that like attracts like and an appeal to the powers that be to have sympathy for ones plight.I am thinking it is little wonder people continue with this practice and indeed hold to out dated mythologies due to the fact that this belief in magic is still very much alive.I am struck to by the fact that though prayer is not likely to affect any change of circumstance it is direct towards. I believe it does have a positive effect upon the believer who engages in this practice,perhaps in the belief they are actually doing something,while expending little to no effort.What are the thoughts of my fellow associates out there,any insights? Get out those four leaf clovers!

Reason is the enemy of faith.
Luther, Martin - :eek:

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@boagie,

I'd put prayer in the same category as other forms of superstitions that all reinforce their "legitimacy" with specious reasoning. If you pray for someone who is sick and they get better, it must be the prayer. It probably even has a placebo affect on people who are praying for themselves to get through an illness. If one associates postive results with a specific action, reason tends to go out the window.

Certainly most people do not like to believe that someone is entirely beyond their control, and prayer can provide a way for them to soothe their conscience, allowing them to convince themselves that they've done something to facilitate a desired outcome. It's amusing how whenever a good fantasy movie comes out, it's often described as appealing to the kid in all of us, yet so many adults regularly engage in prayer, which could just as easily be called a magic spell. It seems our desire for fantasy never goes away, it just changes forms.

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@Dexter78,

Dexter78,

Changeing forms,interesting idea.Prayer though,through the eons does not seem to have changed to much,the modern man does not ask the great spirit for help in the hunt,though perhaps for a better job.I guess as long as much of reality remains hidden from us,magic will be alive and well, at least for a high percentage of the population.I guess to there must be some attraction to it by one and all,much of entertainment is fantasy and that is marketablity.How many ways besides magic and fantasy are there to escape the humdrum.It is funny too that mainline religious people find it humorus the beliefs of more primary cultures,when in fact they are practiceing the same methods of magic.

Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther :eek:

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@boagie,

Prayer is an integral part of our relationship with God. Praying without ceasing is the very beginning of having a spiritual mindset. From my own personal experience, it's not superstitious at all. Daily I experience a two-way dialogue with God and, for me, I think it's a real blessing to have that kind of experience. I understand, though, if someone would rather live their lives without prayer or a belief in God, but to me I wouldn't want that kind of life since it would seem very superficial and meaningless. Of course, if prayer is nonsense, then I'd rather not pray, but I don't have that opinion.

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@harvey1,

harvey1 wrote:

Prayer is an integral part of our relationship with God. Praying without ceasing is the very beginning of having a spiritual mindset. From my own personal experience, it's not superstitious at all. Daily I experience a two-way dialogue with God and, for me, I think it's a real blessing to have that kind of experience. I understand, though, if someone would rather live their lives without prayer or a belief in God, but to me I wouldn't want that kind of life since it would seem very superficial and meaningless. Of course, if prayer is nonsense, then I'd rather not pray, but I don't have that opinion.

harvey,Welcome to the forums!! Smile

I understand from the experience of those around me,that the believer requires no rational foundation for the belief that prayer is effective.The history of this tradition is in sympathic magic.It is interesting that you indicate you would not want the kind of life which does not believe in prayer and/or god,it would seem superficial and meaningless.Well,perhaps it is superfical and/or meaningless,that would be a philosophical question.Belief itself is not philosophical."Of course, if prayer is nonsense,then I'd rather not pray,but I don't have that opinion." What is your opinion then, and how did you arrive at the conclusion that it is not nonsense?

Reason is the enemy of faith.
Martin Luther :eek:

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

What is your opinion then, and how did you arrive at the conclusion that it is not nonsense?

Thanks, Boagie for that warm welcome.

Prayer works. It's a purely subjective experience that has led me to that opinion. I'm not always in the "praying without ceasing" mindset, and sometimes I confront an obstacle where I don't pray about it. And, I find myself struggling against that obstacle. Eventually, it dawns on me that I ought to pray, and my experience has been that this is usually the moment where my struggle has in some way come to some form of resolution.

Sometimes, though, the issue is a life-changing event that I'm praying for, and in those instances the struggle takes maybe months or even years to find a full resolution. But, I've found over months and years that prayer is the key to finding that full resolution. It takes strong faith, though.

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@harvey1,

Prayer works. It's a purely subjective experience that has led me to that opinion. I'm not always in the "praying without ceasing" mindset, and sometimes I confront an obstacle where I don't pray about it. And, I find myself struggling against that obstacle. Eventually, it dawns on me that I ought to pray, and my experience has been that this is usually the moment where my struggle has in some way come to some form of resolution.

havey,

I have no problem with the opinion that prayer is effective on a subjective level,understood as a psychological adaptation,and expression in the world.It would place the individual psyche in a unique position,one not available to reason.In reality it is perhaps a kind of practical magic--without the smoke and mirrors,a selfhelp method.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

I have no problem with the opinion that prayer is effective on a subjective level,understood as a psychological adaptation,and expression in the world.It would place the individual psyche in a unique position,one not available to reason.In reality it is perhaps a kind of practical magic--without the smoke and mirrors,a selfhelp method.

But, that's "reality" for you Boagie. It's your perception that it is a superstitious belief, and I respect your feelings on that. It doesn't match to my perceptions, and considering that effective prayer is not well understood, I can understand how someone could draw incorrect conclusions on it being a superstitious belief.

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@harvey1,

harvey1 wrote:

But, that's "reality" for you Boagie. It's your perception that it is a superstitious belief, and I respect your feelings on that. It doesn't match to my perceptions, and considering that effective prayer is not well understood, I can understand how someone could draw incorrect conclusions on it being a superstitious belief.

harvey,

Yes,it is a subjective experience,and being I cannot walk in your shoes nor you in mine,this avenue of knowing is closed to us.There is no scientific evidence that prayer actually works,as a matter of fact the evidence is quite to the contrary.Still,if it comes down to peoples subjective experience,we will have to agree,to disagree.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Yes,it is a subjective experience,and being I cannot walk in your shoes nor you in mine,this avenue of knowing is closed.There is no scientific evidence that prayer actually works,as a matter of fact the evidence is quite to the contrary.Still,if comes down to peoples subjective experience, we will have to agree,to disagree.

That's right. However, let me say that on the subject of scientific evidence that this is completely irrelevant. Science is effective to judge matters on statistical accuracy. For example, science can detect exotic particles by finding a statistical link between theory and registration of particles that we can more easily detect (e.g., electrons). If there is no particle theory, then it is impossible to find this statistical link.

In the case of prayer, there is no "prayer theory" as to how and when God provides a response. In addition, and this is very important, there is no effective way to register a subjective event. For example, if I prayed for a "good wife," then how could science determine whether that prayer was a success or not? By the number of children? By the size of a house? I'm sure you get my point.

But, as we agree, it is almost impossible to find an objective means to agree on the meaning of a subjective experience. This is true even in science where theories must be decided based on their subjective qualities (e.g., inference to the "best" explanation). If this weren't the case, then there would never be any disagreement in the sciences, philosophy, economics, etc.. Of course, we know that philosophy has perhaps the most disagreements of any academic field.

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@harvey1,

harvey,

Indeed anyone can claim anything on a subjective level and claim crediability.If I told you my cat speaks feline but thinks in german,and this I just know,how could you deny my truth.That is why extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs.I might add disagreeing with me is evil---just kidding-------subjectively!!

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Indeed anyone can claim anything on a subjective level and claim crediability.If I told you my cat speaks feline but thinks in german,and this I just know,how could you deny my truth.That is why extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs.I might add disagreeing with me is evil---just kidding-------subjectively!!

Someone can claim credibility, but credibility is also subjective to the person who hears the claim. If someone made an extraordinary claim, then I would think (in my subjective opinion) that they've either lost it (i.e., some psychological factor is at play), are toying (or lying) with me, or had encountered a legitimate phenomena needing a rational explanation. If I was confident that they haven't lost it or are somehow deceiving themselves (i.e., they show many other signs of being credible and cogent), then I would consider the other two possibilities. If I finally ruled out the possibilities other than that it's a real phenomena that they encountered, then I would be left with no other choice but to believe that they encountered a phenomenon. The interpretation of that phenomenon, at that point, is left up to me as the hearer of the claim. I might chalk it up to chance, weather balloons, or possibly a myriad of other explanations. I would also consider the possibility that their interpretation is correct if it were reasonable (from my subjective perspective) to do so.

I don't think it is true that extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. What extraordinary claims need are sufficient reasons to believe them in light of what we already believe about the world. If the sufficient reasons provided (e.g., the testimony of a seemingly reliable source) are not out of congruence to our rational understanding of the world, then I think we ought to be at least open-minded.

So, why not be open-minded about prayer being what millions of people claim: the intervention of a personal God?

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@harvey1,

havey,

"So, why not be open-minded about prayer being what millions of people claim: the intervention of a personal God?"

Because subjectively this is not my experience,and I have never heard a adequate explanation which would conveince me to believe in the supernatural.By the way,this personal god you speak of,is the Christian one--------so many gods to chose from!!
[RIGHT][/RIGHT]

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Because subjectively this is not my experience,and I have never heard a adequate explanation which would conveince me to believe in the supernatural.

This is why this kind of dialogue is so difficult and challenging. We come from entirely different backgrounds and having had a world full of experiences that make it difficult to bridge this gap. It's even more difficult when each holds the other to hold irrational views of the universe. I've more or less given up trying to convince others of my perspective. Rather, I'm much more pessimistic and think that the best you can hope for is minor agreements such as the one we've achieved here.

boagie wrote:

By the way,this personal god you speak of,is the Christian one--------so many gods to chose from!!

The Christian apostle Paul was quick to point out to the Athenians that their temple to the Unknown God was actually correct. Paul didn't say that they didn't identify God, he just stated that they didn't know who that God is. We don't have different gods to choose from, we only have one God to choose. Knowing that God takes prayer.

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@harvey1,

havey1,

It is agreed,we live within different realites.Personally I would not care what other people believe, but it does trouble me when believers get political.
This political activity is what has prompted many people to be less tolerant of the believers.It has been a relative pleasure discussing this with you,thank you!

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Personally I would not care what other people believe, but it does trouble me when believers get political. This political activity is what has prompted many people to be less tolerant of the believers.

I quite agree. I don't like it that there's a large populace of religious folks who think that their religious beliefs ought to dictate how other people live. The problem that I struggle with is how much to allow secularists to decide how I live. That's why on issues such as abortion, stem cell research, school prayer, and a number of other issues, I side heavily on the view that religious people ought not try to force secularists to live according to their religious beliefs. On the other hand, on issues such as forbidding of Christmas decorations, secularization of schools & textbooks, secularization of the media & Hollywood, and the like, I feel that this secularization is a concern to my religious heritage. I'm all for making Vermont a separate secularized country. (Just kidding.)

boagie wrote:

It has been a relative pleasure discussing this with you,thank you!

You too.

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@harvey1,

Prayer and magic are different in the most fundamental sense in the Bible. Prayer is submission and dependance on God. We turn to Him for all our needs and He is our provision. Magic is seeking power and knowledge through other spirits. That is a violation of a coventant between you and God on the same grounds as adultery within the covanant of marriage.

What we miss is the role of these covenant relationships in the spiritual realm. The world was created for man and all things were given to him. Man, in turn, gave all authority to Satan when he relinqueshed control in the garden. Now that we are all born of the world and so under the legal dominion of Satan. God is a God of justice, so instead of stealing the world back, He sacrificed His Son to 'legally' redeem back His most treasured creation: us. Now we still belong to the world until we die to it by turning our backs completely on our old ways, and surrendering our lives completely to the obedience of Christ. (through His death and resurrection) Only after this, does God have legal rights over you. Only then will you experience the power of Him working in your life. Bless you and thank you for reading!

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine, Smile

I do not think there is much difference if any,between religious beliefs and classic magic."Magic is defined as any art that evokes supernatural powers."It seems to be a quality very much in evidence despite a facade of reason.Formally I found it in idividuals coming from less developed parts of the world, but was quite shocked when I realized how popular it is in our societies here in the west.I think prayer is magic, even in the purest sense of the term.

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@boagie,

Hey Boagie,

I can see that view from your perspective crystal clear. I am speaking as someone who is actively engaged in the spiritual encounter that is being described. I have to say I have seen some very distinct differences between spiritual influences over people that are results of the type of spirit they are exposing themselves to.

I guess I am switching now from philosophy to eye witness accounts, but here we go.

For instance, I have encountered people who have had experience with people with certain powers--this one was a strange kind of gift to see the dark secrets of a person's heart and tell it back to them. After the experience wtih this person, these people have had many terrible tragedies in their lives. When we prayed a prayer with them renouncing that spirit and inviting the Holy Spirit we were able to see an instant change in them. There have been other personal experiences like this and many other second hand ones.

My only point being there are spirits that invite terrible things into the lives of people, and only one Spirit I know that has set them free. My experience is limited to that Spirit, so you may know of others. But I can only guarantee the path that I have walked.

The question isn't which religion is the 'right' religion. The question is which Spirit brings freedom the the life of the follower, and which destruction.
That being said, the people I describe were Christians. We are not immune, we just have the Power to overcome the spirits that cause destruction by the One we receive by surrender to Christ.

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@Katherine phil,

Katherine, Smile

How many spirits good and bad are floating about out there waiting to do their stuff.An old friend of mine whom turned born again told me one day he believed in the devil,the only way I can understand this as a need is Christianities focus on duality.In a world of duality I guess god needs the devil to define himself.Are not Christians limited to the devil as evil spirit,god as good spirit and the angels as spirits that keep house.You sound like you believe there are a fair number of spirits to chose from. Wink

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Is Prayer The Last Vestige Of Sympathic Magic

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