Pythagorean, I don't understand why you feel the need to attack my character. I find that several times in your post, you either insult my moral fiber or make disparaging comments about other races. I believe that there is a difference between indicating and discussing the causes and effects of social problems and simply making baseless claims and insulting generalizations. To highlight what I'm talking about, here are some excerpts from your post that I feel are either racially offensive comments or unwarranted personal attacks:
I find that in your posts, you are taking a very aggressive tone and making baseless assertions about my morality. If you'll note, I haven't advanced any sort of personal moral dispostion, I've simply questioned your claims and proposed an alternate explanation.[
I don't believe that I attacked your character, cogitoergo. From reading your posts you seem like a decent person to me. I spoke my mind. I do feel that you are ignoring some pretty obvious things but I also apologize for being overly aggressive.
It seems to me that you are not fully appreciating the pressures involved and the risks associated with the positions that I am taking. It is as if you are unaware of the general social environment and climate of opinion within which this discussion is taking place. I find it difficult to discuss these issues with someone who is unaware of the dangers involved.
And I don't see how my critiquing the black and Hispanic subcultures is unfair. I fail to understand why leveling a moral critique against abnormally high out of wedlock births, attitudes of violence, the 'pimp' mind-set, and all of the other widely known and widely celebrated negative aspects of these cultures could be construed as unfair or insulting. I truly believe that a young black man or a young Hispanic man would be much better off in life precisely if they were to join me in condemning these anti-social attitudes and behavioural traits. I believe that I would be the genuine benefactor of them and not you and not any others who cannot bring themselves to speak openly of these extreme elements in the culture.
I also feel that often, instead of properly addressing my questions in a philosophical manner, you retort with rhetoric and personal attacks. It is not healthy debate to behave this way. Instead, it is disrespectful to me and to the races of people that you are lodging accusations against.
I was not intending to be 'disrespectful'. It is not out of some racial animosity toward black and Hispanic people that I am speaking here. The black rappers and gang members that loom so large in the culture are the one's whom you should be condemning. Why condemn me? The things that I am saying are downright good natured compared to the things that we all hear on a regular basis from the average rapper or 'gangsta'. It just seems so absurd to defend the type of behaviour that leads to and endlessly perpetuates these sad pathologies. By condemning me and defending them you are endorsing behaviour that consigns generations to lives of spiritual and economic poverty, in my opinion.
I don't think that woman should be whore, I don't think that gangsta rap music is socially redeeming, I don't think that out of wedlock births are good things, I don't think that high levels of murder and violence are good things: because I don't endorse these I am a bad person? It is only because you know I'm not black that you insinuate that I am a racist. Bill Cosby has said the exact same things that I am saying ( to no avail, of course).
In response to the few actual arguments in your post, I feel like many of the things you are saying are unfounded. Can you produce any evidence to suggest that before the cultural revolutions of the 1960s that the gap in crime rates between the poor and the upper classes was significantly lower?
I'm not a social scientist. I have read some of their work and I hate them and the entire field. I believe they are failures.
However, I will take Abraham Lincoln as an example of a man who grew up in poverty (in a log cabin) yet came from a moral family. It was quite common to find the poor in America, such as the Jewish emigres in the 20th Century, who came from grinding poverty to find fame and fortune as writers, artists, entrepreneurs. In fact there were whole generations of immigrants from the late nineteenth century who clawed their way out of poverty. And if we look at the Asian communities today we see the same thing. They are busy studying books in the midst of poverty.
As I said, on the face of it it makes no sense. Morality is not something that people can buy with money. However, it is a prerequisite for social mobility of any type. Which is precisely why those who condemn behaviour that leads to the glorification of 'pimps' and illegitimacy are the real benefactors.
I don' believe that poverty in itself is a barrier to social mobility if that poverty is not accompanied by 'pimp' culture and the like. My parents grew up in poverty, yet they would never celebrate gang culture or excuse out of wedlock births.
Also, I don't understand how you could say that I am willfully ignoring black culture, as you don't know me at all in any fashion. One of my favorite genres of music is Hip-Hop, in which I've found many artists that are promulgators of good virtue and inspiration. I believe that you are generalizing this style of music based on some of its more notorious or mainstream artists, who are, as with any genre of music, prone to be more low-brow.
How could I be (overly) generalizing if they are mainstream?
I don't agree that a "white skinned person can never, ever venture into an all black community without thereby risking his very life." I'm actually from the South. I have "ventured into" black neighborhoods in places like Montgomery, Birmingham, Atlanta, and New Orleans without incident. I spent an afternoon in the Lower Ninth Ward in New Orleans. The people there were some of the kindest I've met. It would seem that this is a very negative and unfair generalization that you have formed about black people.
I also have personal experience. Either hatred of white people is common in the black community or it is not. I have little patience for those who would say that black people do not blame white people for their condition. You need only read the political literature. Black political groups openly rant against white people. Yes, it is politically incorrect, as well as dangerous, to say that blacks are racists. But that does not alter the political and social reality. My guess is that you are politically innocent.
I don't mean in any fashion to excuse people for misogyny, glorification of violence, or hatred of another race. But I do feel that the way to approach these issues is not to condemn an entire race and culture. The entirety of black (or Hispcanic) culture is not immoral or deserving of condemnation. People don't want to listen to anything you have to say if you simply generalize them and speak about them in a hateful fashion. Telling black people that their culture is immoral and inferior is not going to accomplish anything but the proliferation of racism.
Again, who is the real hater here? It is an obvious fact that good moral habits lead to happiness, wealth and long life. I am not the one who is defending the attitudes that lead to social decay. To accuse me of telling black people that their culture is immoral and inferior is a mischaracterization, to say the least. You don't like the fact that I am honest about the culture because you are part of the culture. It is your insinuating that I am a racist (because I dare to speak the truth about 'pimp' culture) that is the true act of immorality here. If you truly wanted to lift up black culture you would join me in condemning these destructive traits instead of defending them. Who is the real racist here?
I don't understand how you can simultaneously speak negatively about third-world and developing nations, and then conclude your post by instructing me to study how some developing nations "stamp out immorality." I thought you said that third-world ideologies were "incredible violence, drug use and dealing." Perhaps this was another unfair generalization. Additionally, you haven't given any examples of this "stamping out" or explained how it would affect the nation's development. Instead of generalities, specific examples or explanations would be helpful.
I don't see how I can help you when you ignore the ill effects that immoral attitudes have on society.
In any event, all I did was state that third world dictators and their fellow travelers who oppress, kill and enslave their citizens are a vicious lot. And you should distinguish between the Asian economies, including India, who are developing, and the aforementioned dictators. The dictatorships are black holes of social destruction and human rights violations, whereas the emerging economies are the future of technology and science and industry.
I hope that we can put aside the hostility and have a rational discussion about this topic. I also hope that you will refrain from making these negative racial generalizations, as that is a violation of forum rules, and as a moderator, you should be upholding and enforcing them.
I have taken a risk. That, I know. The sad part is that it is you who are unaware of the risk, except when it comes to defending your dark allowances, and that it is you who are unaware even of why it is a risk at all, or of the fundamental injustice of it. I am not the 'racist' in all of this. I have said nothing that Bill Cosby hasn't said, and the only reason that I am wrong and he is right is because of MY race.
The good people are the bad people, immorality has become morality, injustice has become justice.
That you or anyone else should tell me what I can or cannot say based upon race is shameful. Why can't we speak openly? So what if what someone says is offensive to others? You have outlawed freedom of speech and freedom of expression based upon...what? Pimps and gansters are more sacred to you than freedom of speech, that is very clear. But you don't have any idea why freedom of offensive speech is important to society at all. You don't even know the difference between immorality and morality. Yet, I am the one who has to suffer. That is shameful, disgraceful and unfair. Freedom of offensive speech is precisely what needs to be protected if a society wants to live in freedom. Why would anyone need to protect speech that is not offensive? This is ridiculous: it is offensive political speech that is precisely what a truly free society needs to protect. For me to prove that true freedom of speech is dying in America one only has to look at your, very real, threats against me - right here and right now.
It used to be that the bad guy was not the guy who condemns bad things. It used to be that the bad guy is the guy who defends bad things. I'm not talking about the poor black guy who works hard to put a roof over his family, I am not talking about the hard working Hispanic who clings to his bible and works 16 hours a day and you know it.
I'm talking about 'pimp' culture, I am talking about rap music I am talking about the culture. And I believe that you know exactly what I am talking about. By defending the culture you are consigning its children to lives of trouble and pain.