Is Debt Immoral?

I've enjoyed your posts quite a bit, but I must say that the racial element would better be expressed in cultural terms. I don't think I'm coming from a PC place here. Yes, the cultural issue is directly related to racial associations -- I won't deny that. What do these idolized rappers have in common? I mention rappers because I feel this is more accurate than your mention of pimps. The rapper is rich and a warrior. Obviously, the rapper is often neither in real life, but this is the image for sale. Of course woman-as-object is indeed a part of this. B*tches and H*s, etc. It reminds me of societies described by Herodotus. The ideal man has youth, money, bullet-wound scars, pecs, and a harem of quarter-dressed sex workers....
This reminds me of an exaggeration of the usual advertisement with an added glorification of violence. But this is mirrored generally in videogames and movies. The nerdy little white boys, who have never been in a fight, are pulling imaginary triggers all the time, I think. A virtual coliseum.

I do think the moral and the economic issues are very much intertwined. Perhaps rap-culture must exaggerate the violence element because its consumers live closer to the violent neighborhoods and therefore want to make a virtue of necessity. Rather than simply confessing an envy of the Banker, the flavor of authentic-macho-violence is added to the ideal. It's very hard for anyone to view themselves as someone on the bottom.

I think that more specifically, you mean to address "thug culture" and not black culture as a whole.

It is a bit racist to presume that black culture is composed of pimps and hoes and the search for the almighty dollar.

However it is pertinent to note that these subcultures are symptomatic of a repressive and materialistic American culture that teaches young poor black people that the only way to make it out of poverty is to be a rapper or a basketball player.

But back to the discussion at hand, why do you think that it impossible to reform America, and also, what particular immoralities do you find to be standing in the path of this "reformation?"

How about mixing thug culture with world historically high illegitimacy rates, semi-illiteracy, public school sponsored racism (hating white skin), high levels of violence and socialist-oriented politics. Is that any better? Even if those problems are my fault, as I am sure you will insist, are they not still real problems? And if they are real problems then why is it racist to simply state the unvarnished truth?

There are laws against oppression and these laws are strictly enforced with great penalties. There is no such oppression of blacks from without. The fault lies within the black community.

As I said, the glorification of rap music, which is a typical, particular immoral, or anti-moral, movement.

Isn't it more likely that high illegitimacy rates (which I presume you are referring to childbirth out of wedlock), violence, and semi-literacy are symptomatic of poverty in general? According to the National Poverty Center at the University of Michigan, 8.6% of non-Hispanic whites were impoverished while 24.7% of blacks were impoverished.

And also we must note that the reasons for such a high poverty rate are largely the results of black history in America. After Emancipation, it isn't as if African Americans all of the sudden gained equal footing. In the beginning, they were forcibly uneducated and poor. They were repressed by institutions like unregulated sharecropping and Jim Crow laws. In the generations to follow, black Americans could not get ahead for almost a century as a result institutionalized racism in schools and public places. Black people have had fully equal rights for less than fifty years.

It's a long, hard road out of poverty and subjugation. This certainly does not absolve black people of the necessary personal responsibility to rise above their own situation. This does not excuse the prevalence of the gangster subculture. And, these problems are certainly not your fault, nor any other singular individual's fault. However, I don't find it appropriate to refer to black culture as hyper-vulgar, when instead it is the subculture of impoverished and ignorant materialists that you are really referring to. To do so unfairly disregards the entirety of black culture and is disrespectful to black people.

Also, I feel like this statement presupposes that there exists public school sponsored racism and also that socialist-oriented politics are a necessarily negative thing. Could you please justify these arguments?

There aren't laws against "oppression." There are laws against many forms of racial discrimination and violence based on race. But this does not eliminate the effects of racism from individuals in positions of power, for example, school administrators. Oppression is often a social or economic issue that can't simply be resolved through legislation. Once again, black people do hold fault in many senses, but this does not mean that our society does not have a racially repressive mechanism.

True, one could easily argue that rap music is "immoral," but that is very subjective. On top of that, there are innumerable counterexamples. Hip-hop is like any other mainstream musical genre, complete with many artists who are shameful and many other artists who are positive. It isn't an inherently anti-moral movement. This seems to also be an unfair generalization.

Also, I feel like I don't understand exactly what you are defining as "public immorality." Could you elaborate on that, and the effects you believe it has on society?

It should be no secret that a white skinned person can never, ever venture into an all black community without thereby risking his very life.

In my opinion, you are a shameful apologist for these real racists of the black community because you willfully ignore these most obvious and damning truths.


It doesn't follow that due to the past it is now acceptable to destroy whatever good is left in society by willfully ignoring the plague of anti-morality and life destroying ideology that comes out of the black community but has spread to the whole society at large.


It's a little late to be worried about me disrespecting the black community. Any person with even a scintilla of decency would disrespect both the entire black and the Hispanic communities on moral grounds...



There is no difference between your attitude and the teaching of the public schools. You both condone and celebrate levels of immorality that would make a third world dictator blush.


And they are aware that almost all black people harbour a hatred of white people that is hyper-vulgar, hyper-violent, and disgusting in the extreme. You simply do not know of what you speak. You are not street wise.

You simply do not recognize any meaningful difference between right and wrong, in my opinion. You don't seem to know why a society should be vigilant and stamp out immorality while it has a chance. You are a typical mainstream liberal.

It depends. It's wrong to pay the hit man you hired to take someone out. If you borrowed money from the bank, then I think it's moral to pay them back.

Is it moral to make a payment? What do you mean? If payment is morality, what would morality be!

Is morality exchange of goods and service contingent upon payment not just as one would think morality would be free for all without it being expensive.
Is morality only a stock exchange?
Is morality only what one can get from it, not moral because of it?
Is not morality the ultimate expectancy of goods for goods, instead of being gratis for all, to be moral one must have the fund sot be so.

Pythagorean, I don't understand why you feel the need to attack my character. I find that several times in your post, you either insult my moral fiber or make disparaging comments about other races. I believe that there is a difference between indicating and discussing the causes and effects of social problems and simply making baseless claims and insulting generalizations. To highlight what I'm talking about, here are some excerpts from your post that I feel are either racially offensive comments or unwarranted personal attacks:



I find that in your posts, you are taking a very aggressive tone and making baseless assertions about my morality. If you'll note, I haven't advanced any sort of personal moral dispostion, I've simply questioned your claims and proposed an alternate explanation.[

I also feel that often, instead of properly addressing my questions in a philosophical manner, you retort with rhetoric and personal attacks. It is not healthy debate to behave this way. Instead, it is disrespectful to me and to the races of people that you are lodging accusations against.

In response to the few actual arguments in your post, I feel like many of the things you are saying are unfounded. Can you produce any evidence to suggest that before the cultural revolutions of the 1960s that the gap in crime rates between the poor and the upper classes was significantly lower?

Also, I don't understand how you could say that I am willfully ignoring black culture, as you don't know me at all in any fashion. One of my favorite genres of music is Hip-Hop, in which I've found many artists that are promulgators of good virtue and inspiration. I believe that you are generalizing this style of music based on some of its more notorious or mainstream artists, who are, as with any genre of music, prone to be more low-brow.

I don't agree that a "white skinned person can never, ever venture into an all black community without thereby risking his very life." I'm actually from the South. I have "ventured into" black neighborhoods in places like Montgomery, Birmingham, Atlanta, and New Orleans without incident. I spent an afternoon in the Lower Ninth Ward in New Orleans. The people there were some of the kindest I've met. It would seem that this is a very negative and unfair generalization that you have formed about black people.

I don't mean in any fashion to excuse people for misogyny, glorification of violence, or hatred of another race. But I do feel that the way to approach these issues is not to condemn an entire race and culture. The entirety of black (or Hispcanic) culture is not immoral or deserving of condemnation. People don't want to listen to anything you have to say if you simply generalize them and speak about them in a hateful fashion. Telling black people that their culture is immoral and inferior is not going to accomplish anything but the proliferation of racism.

I don't understand how you can simultaneously speak negatively about third-world and developing nations, and then conclude your post by instructing me to study how some developing nations "stamp out immorality." I thought you said that third-world ideologies were "incredible violence, drug use and dealing." Perhaps this was another unfair generalization. Additionally, you haven't given any examples of this "stamping out" or explained how it would affect the nation's development. Instead of generalities, specific examples or explanations would be helpful.

I hope that we can put aside the hostility and have a rational discussion about this topic. I also hope that you will refrain from making these negative racial generalizations, as that is a violation of forum rules, and as a moderator, you should be upholding and enforcing them.