Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:05 pm
@fast,
fast;169145 wrote:
If you're not going to incur any further debt, then why build a good score?


Down the road; most notably for a mortgage when they're ready to settle down or for perhaps that small business loan, etc.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:07 pm
@xris,
[QUOTE=xris;169162]well I am a socialist, who finds the money market immoral . You cant blame the individual who has the pressures of society begging him to borrow more and more for the advertised necessities, other market traders tell us we need. They do a damned good job, the modern experts of the marketing machines in understanding human behaviour and exploiting their weaknesses. I can remember when trying to borrow a few quid for a new suit, was almost impossible without credit references and my dad standing guarantor. Risk and debt control are not necessary in the modern money game, when high interests rates pay for the few who dodge their repayments. We lack education and controls on the money market. Legislation is an over due necessity.[/QUOTE]
What we lack is restraint, and we can too blame the individual!

How about not trying to borrow money for a new suit! Borrow a suit or make do with what you have. Or, save up for a used suit. Or, if you're doing particularly well, save up for a brand spanking new one.

Babies throw tantrums when they can't get what they want when they want it, but as adults with the capacity to think and reason out problems as they arise, we should be able to withstand most temptations before us.

I will say however that when a student fills out a credit card application and subsequently gets into financial trouble, it may very well (and ultimately) be the students responsibility to fulfill his or her financial obligations (and the parents too if they co-sign), but there are other hands in the mix (that in my opinion) need swatting including but not limited to 1) the student, 2) the parents, 3) the credit card company, 4) the bank underwriting the credit card company, and 5) the school for allowing their institution to be a safe haven for financial predators.
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:13 pm
@Pythagorean,
If I tempt someone to do something and they choose to do it, who bears the responsibility? Yes, ultimately the person making the decision - absolutely!

But does that mean the "tempter" carries no responsibility for the end result? If we stand fast that the individual must ultimately be responsible (which, by the way, I do quite support), we must mitigate it, else we 'excuse' pretty much any temptation - no matter how overwhelming or irresponsible, because we can always throw up our hands and say, "Well, it was *his* decision".

This is an area where the responsibility for the result must be shared. Ultimately; yes, the individual gets to sleep in their own bed. But I think, too, there ought to be some responsibility shared by those who tossed that dangerous carrot out there. What this might amount to (their portion of the shared responsibility of which I speak) depends on the situation.

Thanks
0 Replies
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:15 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;169169 wrote:
Down the road; most notably for a mortgage when they're ready to settle down or for perhaps that small business loan, etc.
Maybe manual underwriting isn't as common today as years gone by, but it's not non-existent. But yes, I see your point. There are a few other benefits that having a good credit score can bring. I was just curious what you had in mind since you said, "NO other debts".
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:18 pm
@fast,
fast;169170 wrote:

What we lack is restraint, and we can too blame the individual!

How about not trying to borrow money for a new suit! Borrow a suit or make do with what you have. Or, save up for a used suit. Or, if you're doing particularly well, save up for a brand spanking new one.

Babies throw tantrums when they can't get what they want when they want it, but as adults with the capacity to think and reason out problems as they arise, we should be able to withstand most temptations before us.

I will say however that when a student fills out a credit card application and subsequently gets into financial trouble, it may very well (and ultimately) be the students responsibility to fulfill his or her financial obligations (and the parents too if they co-sign), but there are other hands in the mix (that in my opinion) need swatting including but not limited to 1) the student, 2) the parents, 3) the credit card company, 4) the bank underwriting the credit card company, and 5) the school for allowing their institution to be a safe haven for financial predators.
So what are you going to do? find the sensible fairy and get her to wave her magic wand over all those possessed with this modern obsession? We all know that being frugal and sensible is always the best route. The trouble is, modern society demands we buy the newest TV or have that well earned holiday. Its capitalism doing its job, a job without concern or controls. Your car breaks down , the fridge blows up, your out of work, the dogs sick, your wife leaves you, your broke....what in the hell are you going to do?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:36 pm
@xris,
xris;169183 wrote:
The trouble is, modern society demands we buy the newest TV or have that well earned holiday.


I don't quite know who "modern society" is supposed to be, and I have no idea how modern society demands anything. But supposing (just supposing) it even makes sense to talk that way, why the hell is anyone stupid enough to give in to such demands? And, if he does, whose fault is it?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:47 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;169196 wrote:
I don't quite know who "modern society" is supposed to be, and I have no idea how modern society demands anything. But supposing (just supposing) it even makes sense to talk that way, why the hell is anyone stupid enough to give in to such demands? And, if he does, whose fault is it?
well if you open your door or look on the telly, you might just find this modern society..does it look anything like the society of forty years ago. Wake up Rip your naps over. As for your ability to state the obvious, yes it is stupid but its also stupid to allow these excesses to operate.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:51 pm
@xris,
[QUOTE=xris;169183]So what are you going to do? find the sensible fairy and get her to wave her magic wand over all those possessed with this modern obsession? We all know that being frugal and sensible is always the best route. The trouble is, modern society demands we buy the newest TV or have that well earned holiday. Its capitalism doing its job, a job without concern or controls. Your car breaks down , the fridge blows up, your out of work, the dogs sick, your wife leaves you, your broke....what in the hell are you going to do?[/QUOTE]

Don't you dare blame society or capitalism for one's inability to exercise some self-control. What you do is prepare for life's little setbacks. So often people become comfortable and complacent when things are smooth and going well, and because they can afford the monthly payments on this and monthly payments on that, they go ahead and borrow money to pay for what they can't pay for outright because they think they can cash flow the payments, and for a lot of people, that's no big deal to them until ... . Yes until! Until life's little setbacks happen. Then it becomes apparent that they thought wrong.

You get a flat tire, your T.V. goes out, the kids want they Disney channel, and the wife wants to eat out more often. We can handle it right? We make enough money right? So, what do we do? Do we think about what may lie in wait around the corner? No. Why? Because we're too busy living in the here and now with no thought to our future. Those setbacks you mentioned (well, maybe except the wife leaving) are just that -- little setbacks, but oh no, not to many other people. To many other people, they're actually full blown emergencies while to a select few (not necessarily rich one's mind you), they are not.

Wanna know why? It's because some people actually take the time to think about what may happen later and prepare. People at a minimum need to 1) get the hell out of debt and 2) have a sizable emergency fund in place. Why? So little things don't become big things.

You said, "modern society demands we buy the newest TV." That's total BS! Where I'm from, we call that trying to keep up with the Jones. You don't have to have what your neighbors have. If the people where you work drive BMW's and you have a Toyota, does that mean you take yourself and your family into debt so you can convey a commensurate image? No. While they're a getting a divorce over their money problems, you'll be the one sitting at the kitchen table with your wife and children, and if you're lucky, the T.V is broke and been in need of fixing for months.

You want to know the secret? The secret is to not let life happen to you. You happen to life. Everybody is so complacent. And that's why little things become emergencies. People always have one or two things they look back on that they attribute to their financial downfall. Truth is, however, it's a cumulative effect of many poor financial decisions along the way. Of course that family had to file bankruptcy, but it wasn't because of the one or two things they think it was. Those things were simply the straw that broke the camels back. You need to be the commander and chief of your money. Don't wonder what happened to it and look to the checkbook to see where it went. That's the wrong attitude. You need to tell each of your dollars what to do as if they are soldiers and you are king. You decide!

Debt is like a hole, and the deeper one is in debt, the deeper the whole. Income is like a shovel. The bigger the income, the bigger the shovel. Wanna achieve financial success, dig yourself out of debt. The bigger the shovel, the faster it will happen. Until then, you nor anyone else with substantial debt has any business inside of a restaurant--unless they're washing dishes.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 02:56 pm
@xris,
xris;169205 wrote:
well if you open your door or look on the telly, you might just find this modern society..does it look anything like the society of forty years ago. Wake up Rip your naps over. As for your ability to state the obvious, yes it is stupid but its also stupid to allow these excesses to operate.


It is the people who go into debt who (for the most part) let these excesses operate. There is not some impersonal force compelling anyone to borrow more than he can afford. If people borrow more than they should, they are to blame for it. Maybe debtor's prison was not such a bad idea.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 03:21 pm
@fast,
fast;169208 wrote:


Don't you dare blame society or capitalism for one's inability to exercise some self-control. What you do is prepare for life's little setbacks. So often people become comfortable and complacent when things are smooth and going well, and because they can afford the monthly payments on this and monthly payments on that, they go ahead and borrow money to pay for what they can't pay for outright because they think they can cash flow the payments, and for a lot of people, that's no big deal to them until ... . Yes until! Until life's little setbacks happen. Then it becomes apparent that they thought wrong.

You get a flat tire, your T.V. goes out, the kids want they Disney channel, and the wife wants to eat out more often. We can handle it right? We make enough money right? So, what do we do? Do we think about what may lie in wait around the corner? No. Why? Because we're too busy living in the here and now with no thought to our future. Those setbacks you mentioned (well, maybe except the wife leaving) are just that -- little setbacks, but oh no, not to many other people. To many other people, they're actually full blown emergencies while to a select few (not necessarily rich one's mind you), they are not.

Wanna know why? It's because some people actually take the time to think about what may happen later and prepare. People at a minimum need to 1) get the hell out of debt and 2) have a sizable emergency fund in place. Why? So little things don't become big things.

You said, "modern society demands we buy the newest TV." That's total BS! Where I'm from, we call that trying to keep up with the Jones. You don't have to have what your neighbors have. If the people where you work drive BMW's and you have a Toyota, does that mean you take yourself and your family into debt so you can convey a commensurate image? No. While they're a getting a divorce over their money problems, you'll be the one sitting at the kitchen table with your wife and children, and if you're lucky, the T.V is broke and been in need of fixing for months.

You want to know the secret? The secret is to not let life happen to you. You happen to life. Everybody is so complacent. And that's why little things become emergencies. People always have one or two things they look back on that they attribute to their financial downfall. Truth is, however, it's a cumulative effect of many poor financial decisions along the way. Of course that family had to file bankruptcy, but it wasn't because of the one or two things they think it was. Those things were simply the straw that broke the camels back. You need to be the commander and chief of your money. Don't wonder what happened to it and look to the checkbook to see where it went. That's the wrong attitude. You need to tell each of your dollars what to do as if they are soldiers and you are king. You decide!

Debt is like a hole, and the deeper one is in debt, the deeper the whole. Income is like a shovel. The bigger the income, the bigger the shovel. Wanna achieve financial success, dig yourself out of debt. The bigger the shovel, the faster it will happen. Until then, you nor anyone else with substantial debt has any business inside of a restaurant--unless they're washing dishes.
Dont preach to me about the benefits of managing your affairs and if you dont mind I will criticise capitalism. I am fully aware of what we should all do and how life should be mapped out like an army manoeuvre. Life ain't like that, is it?

With your view another banking crisis is inevitable. Trusting the money market and the fools who borrow too much effects us all. I am not asking you to protect those who are foolish but those who have to pick up the ship that follows societies excesses. Its a capitalists weakness, he thinks if he looks after number one, the world and his security will be tickerdeboo..Its called common sense where I come from.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 03:48 pm
@xris,
xris;169223 wrote:
Life ain't like that, is it?
Nay. I was just gettin' carried away.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 03:58 pm
@fast,
I believe that the U.S. economy is beyond the point of no return; it is now inevitable that the U.S. economy will begin to collapse in a time frame of one to three years. To be specific, there will be massive inflation in the economy. The price of a loaf of bread, for example, currently at about $1.50, will grow to approximately $250.00. Lower income people will not be able to afford to eat and the government will have to step in to place price controls upon groceries; this will lead to shortages of food. The whole thing will lead in the long run to a change in the form of government. The result will likely be a form of quasi-dictatorship with permanently imposed forms of martial law.

In 2009 the U.S. federal government ran a deficit of 1.4 trillion dollars. In 2010 the projected government deficit stands at 1.3 trillion dollars. I do not believe the government will ever be able to run for even one three month period going forward in the future without incurring a large deficit. The U.S. federal government will never be able ever again to balance its budget. America is now technically a bankrupt nation.

The current national debt of the U.S. is nearly 13 trillion dollars. If we were to add the debt of the newly aquired Fannie and Freddy Mortgage giants, which equals approx. 6 trillion dollars, and also include the real costs of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, the national debt is at 79 trillion dollars more than 5 and a half times our GDP of 14 trillion dollars.

Apple Computers is one of the greatest companies on earth today. For fiscal year 2009 Apple paid 2.28 billion dollars in Federal taxes, the U.S. would need to see the creation of 700 companies like Apple just to balance our 2010 projected budget deficit: And this is impossible.

The problem arises out of the staggering growth of the U.S. financial services sector while at the same time that America has grown from a saving and producing nation to a borrowing and consuming nation.

Without much public notice, the U.S. financial sector - banks, broker-dealers, consumer finance, insurance and mortgage finance- muscled past manufacturing in the 1990's to become the largest sector of the U.S. private economy. By 2004-2006 financial services represented 20 percent to 21 percent of gross domestic product, manufacturing just 12 to 13 percent. The U.S. moves money around instead of makes things.

The federal government for decades has provided bailout after bailout of financial companies. These bailouts have sustained the financial services sector even as the market fundamentals have weighed against them.


Also, the dot com bubble, which is popularly understood as representing a technological advance, was in reality a Wall Street driven bubble fuelled by absurd IPO's and financial mania. After the crash of the dot com bubble the Federal Reserve lowered short term interest rates to 1% which fuelled the irrational excuberance of the now infamous housing bubble. During the housing bubble U.S. manufacturing continued to decline: the rising prices of houses during this time was purely inflationary and absolutely unproductive. The rising prices of houses produced nothing of value for the U.S. economy.

And the current rise in G.D.P. is due only to the taking on of debt by the government. In fact, the government debt is now rising faster than G.D.P.

There is no way to reverse the current course. Because in order to reverse course short term interest rates will have to rise precipitously. Such a rise in rates would bankrupt the average consumer who holds large amounts of debt. A rise in interest rates would mean a rise in student loans, car loans, mortgages, and credit card rates thus bankrupting the consumer. Also, a rise in interest rates would push the interest that the federal government has to pay on its debt obligations beyond its ability to pay.


So the course cannot be changed due to the addiction of debt on the part of the average American as well as the federal government.


U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 02:36 am
@Pythagorean,
Sticking to out dated economic capitalism, creates unrestricted greed and economies that should be stable, collapse under the weight of its own gluttony. We intend to diet tomorrow but today's heart attack makes it redundant. I think we need to look seriously at our constant need for growth and look more to a sustainable economy for the whole world economy.
0 Replies
 
fast
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 07:11 am
@Pythagorean,
[QUOTE=Pythagorean;169237]I believe that the U.S. economy is beyond the point of no return; it is now inevitable that the U.S. economy will begin to collapse in a time frame of one to three years. To be specific, there will be massive inflation in the economy. The price of a loaf of bread, for example, currently at about $1.50, will grow to approximately $250.00. Lower income people will not be able to afford to eat and the government will have to step in to place price controls upon groceries; this will lead to shortages of food. The whole thing will lead in the long run to a change in the form of government. The result will likely be a form of quasi-dictatorship with permanently imposed forms of martial law.
[/QUOTE]The sky is not falling people. If Carter gave us Reagan, imagine what obama will bring!

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 09:18 AM ----------

[QUOTE=xris;169223]Trusting the money market and the fools who borrow too much effects us all. I am not asking you to protect those who are foolish but those who have to pick up the ship that follows societies excesses.[/QUOTE]
The actions of others may have an affect on us, but why attribute that to capitalism? Not everything that happens under a capitalistic system is a consequence of the system.

If you can't afford a house because you don't have the money to pay for it, then putting a rule of law into effect that says lenders have to lend you money isn't a product of capitalism. That's a product of poor leadership decisions.

If the government then taxes me to help bail you out, then yes, that affects me, but any anger towards capitalism in such a scenario is misplaced.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:14 am
@fast,
fast;169519 wrote:
The sky is not falling people. If Carter gave us Reagan, imagine what obama will bring!

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 09:18 AM ----------


The actions of others may have an affect on us, but why attribute that to capitalism? Not everything that happens under a capitalistic system is a consequence of the system.

If you can't afford a house because you don't have the money to pay for it, then putting a rule of law into effect that says lenders have to lend you money isn't a product of capitalism. That's a product of poor leadership decisions.

If the government then taxes me to help bail you out, then yes, that affects me, but any anger towards capitalism in such a scenario is misplaced.
So what is to blame? Was it the unbridled greed of bankers that drove us all to the brink? Why was there no legislation controlling their greed? The two questions point to a capitalist culture, this so called free economy where we dont invade on the freedom to exploit and we admire greed in business. What leadership let us down? they are just pawns in the capitalist system dependant on the bankers for their very existence.
fast
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 09:23 am
@xris,
xris;169532 wrote:
So what is to blame? Was it the unbridled greed of bankers that drove us all to the brink? Why was there no legislation controlling their greed? The two questions point to a capitalist culture, this so called free economy where we dont invade on the freedom to exploit and we admire greed in business. What leadership let us down? they are just pawns in the capitalist system dependant on the bankers for their very existence.


Capitalism includes moral restraint. If things are as you say they are and bankers are doing what they are doing for the reasons you think they are (which I doubt very much, by the way), then what they're doing isn't indicative of what capitalism is about.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 09:39 am
@fast,
fast;169548 wrote:
Capitalism includes moral restraint. If things are as you say they are and bankers are doing what they are doing for the reasons you think they are (which I doubt very much, by the way), then what they're doing isn't indicative of what capitalism is about.


Yes. Moral restraint and moral hazard too. Under capitalism, people are punished if they make bad decisions- or rather, ought to be. That is how the system is supposed to work. If Carter brought us Reagan, then Obama should bring us Abraham Lincoln and George Washington all rolled into one!
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 09:40 am
@fast,
fast;169548 wrote:
Capitalism includes moral restraint. If things are as you say they are and bankers are doing what they are doing for the reasons you think they are (which I doubt very much, by the way), then what they're doing isn't indicative of what capitalism is about.
So you admit what the bankers did was capitalist inspired? So now we have to ask, what moral restraints are there built into this system. You dont believe it was greed that inspired them, so what was it?

---------- Post added 05-27-2010 at 10:43 AM ----------

kennethamy;169555 wrote:
Yes. Moral restraint and moral hazard too. Under capitalism, people are punished if they make bad decisions- or rather, ought to be. That is how the system is supposed to work. If Carter brought us Reagan, then Obama should bring us Abraham Lincoln and George Washington all rolled into one!
If the world is lucky it wont bring back Bush baby, the inspiration for the banking disaster.
0 Replies
 
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 04:59 pm
@fast,
fast;169548 wrote:
Capitalism includes moral restraint.



In classical liberal and classical economic theory moral and spiritual matters of people were relegated to the private sphere. Under classical liberalism and free market theory man is an economic or calculating animal. This phase in history is now gone. Man is no longer considered a calculating animal and the question is whether it is feasible or possible to bring it (truly free markets) back.

The problem is that morality or, more precisely, anti-morality, has taken over the public sphere. Proponents of anti-morality in the Universities, in the mainstream media, in Hollywood and in government, will prevent a return to truly free markets, in my opinion.

But even if you could remove these obstacles to limited government and free markets by cutting government dramatically you are still left with a population that no longer posesses the types of habits, knowledge and understanding to become savers and produce goods competitively because we are now largely a service economy as well as the world's largest debtor nation. We are no longer the able calculators we once were. And this brings us to the issue of so called free trade and globalization which is promoted by adherents to classical theory but which is eating us alive.

I will say that the inability of Americans to save their money and competitively manufacture goods is intrinsically related to the anti-morality that is preventing a return to a truly free market.

How to get Americans to worship scientific engineers and not black pimps?


Under classical liberalism police force is a necessity in order to protect private property and enforce contracts. Under the system we are living under now police powers will be used to prevent the (white) people from cutting the size of government and pushing back the raging public immorality that permeates the culture, especially the government sector.

-
-
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 05:55 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;169754 wrote:
In classical liberal and classical economic theory moral and spiritual matters of people were relegated to the private sphere. Under classical liberalism and free market theory man is an economic or calculating animal. This phase in history is now gone. Man is no longer considered a calculating animal and the question is whether it is feasible or possible to bring it (truly free markets) back.

The problem is that morality or, more precisely, anti-morality, has taken over the public sphere. Proponents of anti-morality in the Universities, in the mainstream media, in Hollywood and in government, will prevent a return to truly free markets, in my opinion.

But even if you could remove these obstacles to limited government and free markets by cutting government dramatically you are still left with a population that no longer posesses the types of habits, knowledge and understanding to become savers and produce goods competitively because we are now largely a service economy as well as the world's largest debtor nation. We are no longer the able calculators we once were. And this brings us to the issue of so called free trade and globalization which is promoted by adherents to classical theory but which is eating us alive.

I will say that the inability of Americans to save their money and competitively manufacture goods is intrinsically related to the anti-morality that is preventing a return to a truly free market.

How to get Americans to worship scientific engineers and not black pimps?


Under classical liberalism police force is a necessity in order to protect private property and enforce contracts. Under the system we are living under now police powers will be used to prevent the (white) people from cutting the size of government and pushing back the raging public immorality that permeates the culture, especially the government sector.

-
-

I've enjoyed your posts quite a bit, but I must say that the racial element would better be expressed in cultural terms. I don't think I'm coming from a PC place here. Yes, the cultural issue is directly related to racial associations -- I won't deny that. What do these idolized rappers have in common? I mention rappers because I feel this is more accurate than your mention of pimps. The rapper is rich and a warrior. Obviously, the rapper is often neither in real life, but this is the image for sale. Of course woman-as-object is indeed a part of this. B*tches and H*s, etc. It reminds me of societies described by Herodotus. The ideal man has youth, money, bullet-wound scars, pecs, and a harem of quarter-dressed sex workers....
This reminds me of an exaggeration of the usual advertisement with an added glorification of violence. But this is mirrored generally in videogames and movies. The nerdy little white boys, who have never been in a fight, are pulling imaginary triggers all the time, I think. A virtual coliseum.

I do think the moral and the economic issues are very much intertwined. Perhaps rap-culture must exaggerate the violence element because its consumers live closer to the violent neighborhoods and therefore want to make a virtue of necessity. Rather than simply confessing an envy of the Banker, the flavor of authentic-macho-violence is added to the ideal. It's very hard for anyone to view themselves as someone on the bottom.
 

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